Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[Makeshift Park]

https://time.com/6151673/russia-ukraine-invasion-putin

The case for optimism

 

[B4Bear]

He was pushed into this by a decade of US foreign policy, and as is typical of people implementing US foreign policy they don't give a fu** about the carnage they leave in their wake. They'll be cheering this like nothing else. Its certainly good payback for Syria.

Ukaraine, Belarus and Russia are the same people. They all descended from people known as the Kievan Rus over the last 1200 years.

Wow. Cheering on the death of innocents, all while defending the 21st century’s version of a 20th century war monger.

Nothing that is presented to you will change your mind, so why are you here? Apart from carrying the flag and water for Putin?

Old Adolf would agree with your arguments. Well done.

Once again I refer you to the ambassador to for Kenya.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Stirring stuff

 

[ferball]

Wow. Cheering on the death of innocents, all while defending the 21st century’s version of a 20th century war monger.

Nothing that is presented to you will change your mind, so why are you here? Apart from carrying the flag and water for Putin?

Old Adolf would agree with your arguments. Well done.

Once again I refer you to the ambassador to for Kenya.

I'm not cheering for anyone in this situation. I'm pointing out what happened.

You're the one cheerleading. How's the destruction of Libya, Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. Did you cheer the US when it trained and armed the Kurds, Iraqis, people in Afghanistan, then bailed on them when things got tough? Like its doing right now in Ukraine after starting a fight it expects someone else to finish. For what are basically PR and business reasons.

Are you cheering for the destruction of Yemen? You seem mighty quiet about that. What's the difference?

FFS Putin's invasion seems less brutal and wantonly destructive than every single one we've been remotely involved with this century. But that doesn't matter cos we're being 21st century war mongers and no one has any problem with that. Its only these 20th century war mongers we've got to worry about.

 

[Makeshift Park]

This is qualified case for optimism #2

 

[B4Bear]

I'm not cheering for anyone in this situation. I'm pointing out what happened.

You're the one cheerleading. How's the destruction of Libya, Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. Did you cheer the US when it trained and armed the Kurds, Iraqis, people in Afghanistan, then bailed on them when things got tough? Like its doing right now in Ukraine after starting a fight it expects someone else to finish. For what are basically PR and business reasons.

Are you cheering for the destruction of Yemen? You seem mighty quiet about that. What's the difference?

FFS Putin's invasion seems less brutal and wantonly destructive than every single one we've been remotely involved with this century. But that doesn't matter cos we're being 21st century war mongers and no one has any problem with that. Its only these 20th century war mongers we've got to worry about.

They are all bad, the difference is I don’t use them to justify another.

 

[ferball]

They are all bad, the difference is I don’t use them to justify another.

Those wars don't justify Putin's actions. But it might motivate him. He might think he's next after Iraq, Syria etc etc. They didn't happen in separate vacuums.

If he doesn't get out soon (ie six months) with Eastern Ukraine as a buffer state and relatively little hassle he may be in trouble at home. And the US foreign policy strategists who have been pushing this for a decade or more will be rapt that it worked finally.

I think this is a case of people acting along the line of "Here's something we can yell at so we can ignore all that other shit."

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

He was pushed into this by a decade of US foreign policy, and as is typical of people implementing US foreign policy they don't give a fu** about the carnage they leave in their wake. They'll be cheering this like nothing else. Its certainly good payback for Syria.

Ukaraine, Belarus and Russia are the same people. They all descended from people known as the Kievan Rus over the last 1200 years.

You've spouted a lot of shit about this situation. You can cite as many other atrocities as you like, none of it justifies this. You may not mean to, but you come across as an apologist for Putin. "Pushed into this", FFS, nobody made him/them do it.

But the bolded in particular is dangerous, illogical rubbish. They were known as the Kievan Rus because Kyiv was the first settlement established. Should Russia be subsumed into Ukraine? They were a ragtag bunch of tribes who invited the Scandinavians to come and impose order upon them (or so the legend goes). Perhaps they should all just submit to Sweden again to resolve their issues?

What should we do about Poland and Lithuania, whose borders and peoples have constantly changed over the last millennium or so?

It's this sort of thinking that has caused so much war and disharmony in the Balkans. It has no place in the modern world.

 

[travelli]

It bears repeating:



Explains why countries may get touchy about the missile ring that forms around them

 

[B4Bear]

Those wars don't justify Putin's actions. But it might motivate him. He might think he's next after Iraq, Syria etc etc. They didn't happen in separate vacuums.

If he doesn't get out soon (ie six months) with Eastern Ukraine as a buffer state and relatively little hassle he may be in trouble at home. And the US foreign policy strategists who have been pushing this for a decade or more will be rapt that it worked finally.

I think this is a case of people acting along the line of "Here's something we can yell at so we can ignore all that other sh*t."

You keep talking about vacuums is in fact one of your favourite lines of argument.

So which of your ‘not-vaccumes’ justifies this:

Attack on Kyiv begins, 198 dead including 3 children

Russian troops have taken their first “significant” city after their invasion of Ukraine began on Thursday, reported Reuters.

www.news.com.au

Good to know the company you keep agrees with your assessment.

Tucker Carlson leads rightwing charge to blame everyone but Putin

The Fox News host has defended the Russian leader’s invasion of Ukraine, saying ‘Has Putin ever called me a racist?’

www.theguardian.com

Your sophistry and edgy hipster rage against the establishment is sickening. We are 100% done on this subject. Your tolerance and justification for murder is nauseating.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

 

[Sopwiths North]

He was pushed into this by a decade of US foreign policy, and as is typical of people implementing US foreign policy they don't give a fu** about the carnage they leave in their wake. They'll be cheering this like nothing else. Its certainly good payback for Syria.

Ukaraine, Belarus and Russia are the same people. They all descended from people known as the Kievan Rus over the last 1200 years.

Nobody pushes Putin into anything. He's not a victim. He's a tyrant, and he's attempting to redraw another country's borders by force, as per his own deluded manifesto.

And imperialism is not unity consciousness either.

This is not 1200 years ago. It's 2022, and Ukraine has every right to defend its own sovereignty. It deserves peace and the right to self-governance and the freedom to make its own decisions about its future. It's expressed a desire to join the West, and has been working very hard for the past decade now to try to achieve that.

It deserves to have its wishes heard for what they are, instead of forever being relegated in identity as part of some tired geopolitical sh*tfight.

It's done more than enough to earn its own spot at the table now. It's time to honour that.

 

[Sopwiths North]

 

[B4Bear]

Nobody pushes Putin into anything. He's not a victim. He's a tyrant, and he's attempting to redraw another country's borders by force, as per his own deluded manifesto.

And imperialism is not unity consciousness either.

This is not 1200 years ago. It's 2022, and Ukraine has every right to defend its own sovereignty. It deserves peace and the right to self-governance and the freedom to make its own decisions about its future. It's expressed a desire to join the West, and has been working very hard for the past decade now to try to achieve that.

It deserves to have its wishes heard for what they are, instead of forever being relegated in identity as part of some tired geopolitical sh*tfight.

It's done more than enough to earn its own spot at the table now. It's time to honour that.

When this is over, Russia will have nato on its doorstep.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

A little slow there Germany.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Why the Russians Are Struggling | National Review

The last three days of combat should put a serious dent in the reputation of this new Russian army.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[Eggs11]

A little slow there Germany.

Not really. Couldn’t do it before the invasion or Putin would have used it as evidence to justify that his invasion of Ukraine to defend Russia.

 

[B4Bear]

A little slow there Germany.

Not really. They have 75 years of ghosts to overcome before they start exporting arms into conflict areas. It is a game changer though, the policy change will change Europe forever.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Good. I was worried they'd never get their shit together.
If the EU can join the US and impose serious sanctions on Sberbank and VTB too, all the better.

 

[Makeshift Park]

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Not really. Couldn’t do it before the invasion or Putin would have used it as evidence to justify that his invasion of Ukraine to defend Russia.

Not what I meant. Poland has been shifting equipment for days following the invasion, as have other countries. They did initially drag their feet on this issue, but it’s good they made the tough choice.

 

[Val Keating]

Why the Russians Are Struggling | National Review

The last three days of combat should put a serious dent in the reputation of this new Russian army.

www.nationalreview.com

This quote in particular shows that they didn’t expect Ukraine to withstand them for so long,

“Third, the Russians — possibly out of hubris — do not appear to have prepared the logistical train necessary to keep some of their units in action for an extended period of time. Multiple videos have emerged of Russian columns out of gas and stuck on Ukrainian roads.”

I wonder if Putin is willing to commit major war crimes and escalate the bombing to indiscriminate.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Not really. They have 75 years of ghosts to overcome before they start exporting arms into conflict areas. It is a game changer though, the policy change will change Europe forever.

Germany has not had a problem exporting copious amounts of military goods to Egypt, who have a terrible human rights record. Ghosts have nothing to do with it.

https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2021-04/germany_arms_exports_report_2018_english.pdf

Plenty of other not so nice countries too:

 

[Val Keating]

Not what I meant. Poland has been shifting equipment for days following the invasion.

There’s also the fact that Germany is hugely reliant on Russian gas to keep them going. 75% isn’t it?

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

There’s also the fact that Germany is hugely reliant on Russian gas to keep them going. 75% isn’t it?

55% of its gas needs, which is roughly 25% of national energy. It is likely a key reason why they initially dragged their feet. Good to see them make a brave decision in the end, which is the more important thing.