The Otherworldly Circus - The America Thread

[Bont2Bruce]

The hysteria isn't what Trump said or didn't say, it's the absurd proposition that Trump endangers American democracy. Its institutions are strong, its citizens are forthright in asserting their rights, more than in any other democracy, it has an independent judiciary, it has a political structure that works for them. Even if Trump wanted to usurp democracy, he couldn't. It's one thing to dislike the man, a danger to democracy is ridiculous.

You think that an incumbent president encouraging his supporters to "stop the count" because "he already won" is somehow no danger to democracy? Or have you conveniently ignored the fact that that happened just the other day?

 

[LittleG]

The hysteria isn't what Trump said or didn't say, it's the absurd proposition that Trump endangers American democracy. Its institutions are strong, its citizens are forthright in asserting their rights, more than in any other democracy, it has an independent judiciary, it has a political structure that works for them. Even if Trump wanted to usurp democracy, he couldn't. It's one thing to dislike the man, a danger to democracy is ridiculous.

It’s not an independent judiciary. The GOP controlled senate chooses the judges who support their minority opinion.

 

[D Mitchell]

You think that an incumbent president encouraging his supporters to "stop the count" because "he already won" is somehow no danger to democracy?

He didn't and doesn't encourage his supporters to "stop the count"'. He might have encouraged them to protest seeking to stop the count, there's a massive difference. I'm not saying he even did encourage them, you are merely drawing a conclusion that he encouraged it. There's nothing undemocratic about encouraging others to protest. There's nothing undemocratic or unlawful about a protest in itself. If he believes that the vote count is fraudulent or not following process, seeking to stop it, by lawful means, is not only logical but, especially if fraud is involved but a duty to do something about it. No, it's not at all a danger to democracy.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

He didn't and doesn't encourage his supporters to "stop the count"'. He might have encouraged them to protest seeking to stop the count, there's a massive difference. I'm not saying he even did encourage them, you are merely drawing a conclusion that he encouraged it. There's nothing undemocratic about encouraging others to protest. There's nothing undemocratic or unlawful about a protest in itself. If he believes that the vote count is fraudulent or not following process, seeking to stop it, by lawful means, is not only logical but, especially if fraud is involved but a duty to do something about it. No, it's not at all a danger to democracy.

He wanted the count stopped because he claimed there were illegal votes (which there weren't). He was standing in front of a lecturn preaching to his supporters about it, so it's on the public record even if you deny it happened.

There is no reasoning with someone who thinks that protesting against electoral workers DOING THEIR JOB and counting votes is not undemocratic.

 

[King Harold]

You think that an incumbent president encouraging his supporters to "stop the count" because "he already won" is somehow no danger to democracy? Or have you conveniently ignored the fact that that happened just the other day?

His defence and arguments of Trump are truly Giuliani‘esk
Like I said Mr Mitchell would have fitted in well with Trumps legal team.

And not a threat to democracy , spent 4 years re engineering the very institutions that keep the US strong.

 

[King Harold]

He didn't and doesn't encourage his supporters to "stop the count"'. He might have encouraged them to protest seeking to stop the count, there's a massive difference. I'm not saying he even did encourage them, you are merely drawing a conclusion that he encouraged it. There's nothing undemocratic about encouraging others to protest. There's nothing undemocratic or unlawful about a protest in itself. If he believes that the vote count is fraudulent or not following process, seeking to stop it, by lawful means, is not only logical but, especially if fraud is involved but a duty to do something about it. No, it's not at all a danger to democracy.

Wow ; you literally have no idea !
Are you trolling us

 

[D Mitchell]

...The GOP controlled senate chooses the judges who support their minority opinion.

Judges adjudicate on laws made by the legislative branch of government. They have to be appointed by Government. Supreme Court judges are given tenure well beyond the ordinary retirement ages of other government employees. are well remunerated and have generous retirement packages. That's so they can be independent. In the US, as here, some judges are black letter, others are reformist. Commentators mislead when they reduce judicial appointments to a consideration only of those who will follow one Party or the other. That's not how it works. Black letter Judges are more likely to be guided by what the law is rather than seeking to interpret so are favoured by conservative governments. Reformist judges are more likely to seek to reinterpret laws so are preferred by reformist or progressive governments. Judges don't support the opinions of politicians, that's a slur on judges. An independent judiciary is fundamental to a strong society. It gives certainty to enable citizens to arrange their affairs with confidence. To suggest that a judge makes a decision favouring which party was in Government when he/she was appointed is a slur on the Judiciary, as is the allegation that Supreme Court Judges are not independent.

 

[King Harold]

Trump —.“ If I lose the election has been rigged “ Not a threat to democracy.?

Not a mob boss ? 34 people indicted working for or on behalf of Trump since 2016.L

Judges adjudicate on laws made by the legislative branch of government. They have to be appointed by Government. Supreme Court judges are given tenure well beyond the ordinary retirement ages of other government employees. are well remunerated and have generous retire packages. That's so they can be independent. In the US, as here, some judges are black letter, others are reformist. Commentators mislead when they reduce judicial appointments to a consideration only of those who will follow one Party or the other. That's not how it works. Black letter Judges are more likely to be guided by what the law is rather than seeking to interpret so are favoured by conservative governments. Reformist judges are more likely to seek to reinterpret laws so are preferred by reformist or progressive governments. Judges don't support the opinions of politicians, that's a slur on judges. The cornerstone of a strong society is an independent judiciary, it gives certainty. To suggest that a judge makes a decision favouring which party was in Government when he/she was appointed is a slur on the Judiciary, as is the allegation that Supreme Court Judges are not independent.

You should preach that to Trump , he certainly has a different view.
They must be “ Loyal “ according to him .

 

[D Mitchell]

...he certainly has a different view.
They must be “ Loyal “ according to him .

Why do you say that ? that looks like something you've made up. But even if it's true, what Trump might want isn't what judges do.

PS Please ignore the Like in the previous post, I meant to hit Reply

 

[King Harold]

Why do you say that ? that looks like something you've made up. But even if it's true, what Trump might want isn't what judges do.

No didn’t make it up.
Supreme Court judge Gorsuch , Trumps concerned he would not be “loyal enough “ according to WH aides.
Washington Post article 2017.
What dont you understand that Trump is not a believer in democracy or a independent judiciary ?

Isn‘t his own words enough for you ?

 

[D Mitchell]

No didn’t make it up.
Supreme Court judge Gorsuch , Trumps concerned he would not be “loyal enough “ according to WH aides.
Washington Post article 2017.
What dont you understand that Trump is not a believer in democracy or a independent judiciary ?

Isn‘t his own words enough for you ?

'according to WH aides' That's different from 'his own words'. Anyway, you know my view on what Trump says

Why do you say Trump isn't a believer in democracy ? How do you know what he believes ? But even if he doesn't that still doesn't make him a danger to democracy. Ditto independent judiciary. Again, even if Trump doesn't believe in an independent judiciary, it doesn't make him a danger to democracy.

 

[King Harold]

'according to WH aides' That's different from 'his own words'. Anyway, you know my view on what Trump says

Why do you say Trump isn't a believer in democracy ? How do you know what he believes ? But even if he doesn't that still doesn't make him a danger to democracy. Ditto independent judiciary. Again, even if Trump doesn't believe in an independent judiciary, it doesn't make him a danger to democracy.

You are wearing me out
I will leave your belief in all things Trump to you.
If you haven’t been able to work him out by now , it’s never going to happen.

Are you happy with the recruitment of Martin and Treloar

 

[LittleG]

You are wearing me out
I will leave your belief in all things Trump to you.
If you haven’t been able to work him out by now , it’s never going to happen.

Are you happy with the recruitment of Martin and Treloar

It’s far easier to con people than it is to see through the con. The con artist isn’t always a conservative politician.... Note, I said always....

 

[dogwatch]

Wow ; you literally have no idea !
Are you trolling us

Take your pick, KH*
A


B

* Choosing both is allowed.

 

[D Mitchell]

He wanted the count stopped because he claimed there were illegal votes (which there weren't).

If you include votes received after the close of polls cut off times, votes made by a person more than once, votes made using the identity of another, votes electronically flipped. then you can't say '(there weren't)'. Those matters are still before the Courts. I've seen footage of a vote counter filling in a ballot. You don't know whether there were or were not illegal votes.

,...
He was standing in front of a lecturn preaching to his supporters about it, so it's on the public record even if you deny it happened.

If by it you mean encouraging supporters to 'stop the count, I denied it because the count was not stopped by his supporters at all. You have to show that he did more than just talk about it at a lectern. There's a massive difference between encouraging supporters to protest, I said he might have, and encouraging direct action. But even if he had encouraged direct action, that's criminal, it isn't a threat to democracy.

There is no reasoning with someone who thinks that protesting against electoral workers DOING THEIR JOB and counting votes is not undemocratic.

Who you consider reasoning with is up to you but to say that to protest against persons DOING THEIR JOB is undemocratic is ridiculous. Soldiers, Politicians, Police, Coal miners, Timber Workers, all doing their jobs are regularly the subject of protest. That's not undemocratic, let alone a threat to democracy.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

If you include votes received after the close of polls cut off times, votes made by a person more than once, votes made using the identity of another, votes electronically flipped. then you can't say '(there weren't)'. Those matters are still before the Courts. I've seen footage of a vote counter filling in a ballot. You don't know whether there were or were not illegal votes.

If the attorneys representing Trump in any one of the 36 cases (many of which have been dismissed with prejudice) thus far presented any of the above evidence or even a sound legal argument in court and not on TV, you and they would have an excellent case. They haven't and you don't. Not once have any of these people dared to mutter the word fraud in front of a judge. Indeed Rudi Guliani was forced to make it explicit in court last week that the action he was arguing was not one based around the accusation of fraud. Not even he is dumb enough to run the risk disbarment if he did.

There is a very good reason that lawyers who understand and specialise in election law have run away from this dog and pony show and it has been left to the likes of Rudi, loons like the recently dismissed Sidney Powell and the grifting Jenna Ellis.

The same Jenna Ellis that had this to say about Trump in 2016. She had a point and it feels quite germane to this discussion for reason that are just beyond my grasp of understanding.

 

[LittleG]

If you include votes received after the close of polls cut off times, votes made by a person more than once, votes made using the identity of another, votes electronically flipped. then you can't say '(there weren't)'. Those matters are still before the Courts. I've seen footage of a vote counter filling in a ballot. You don't know whether there were or were not illegal votes.


If by it you mean encouraging supporters to 'stop the count, I denied it because the count was not stopped by his supporters at all. You have to show that he did more than just talk about it at a lectern. There's a massive difference between encouraging supporters to protest, I said he might have, and encouraging direct action. But even if he had encouraged direct action, that's criminal, it isn't a threat to democracy.



Who you consider reasoning with is up to you but to say that to protest against persons DOING THEIR JOB is undemocratic is ridiculous. Soldiers, Politicians, Police, Coal miners, Timber Workers, all doing their jobs are regularly the subject of protest. That's not undemocratic, let alone a threat to democracy.

Footage of poll working writing:
There is footage of a poll working filling in the missing address on an envelope of a mail in ballot. Yet to see anyone filling in the actual ballot... (I spend lots of time on US forums with Trump heads, they post lots of stuff that we get to discuss).

Electronic flipping:
The computer systems are not able to switch votes, because they provide a print out that the voter checks to confirm that it recorded the correct vote. The voter then places that printed receipt into a separate ballot box. The printed receipt is then both counted quickly by a machine & also by a manual hand count. The manual hand count has always matched the machine count.... so that conspiracy theory is completely debunked. Once you understand the system, then you know that theory is false.

Dead people voting:
All the apparently dead people listed as voting by the GOP have been found either:
Alive; someone else with a similar name; dead & didn’t vote (because they are dead); OR in 1 case a GOP supporter who has been charged with fraud for trying to vote on behalf of his dead wife.

Late votes:
The story about votes turning up late, has been disproven in Atlanta. Another case is actually counted votes arriving from a smaller booth for safe keeping in a more secure location.
In Pennsylvania, under 500 votes arrived after Election Day that were postmarked prior to Election Day. These votes have been countered but only recently added to the tally, due to a court proceeding that failed to have them thrown out (note: these votes actually favoured Trump but they tried to have them thrown out!!).

All of these court cases that Trump has brought have been mostly procedural issues. In one case, it involved roughly 50 invalid votes and the Trump campaign tried to have 6.8Million votes thrown out because local GOP officials didn’t notify those ~50 individuals that they could fix their mail in votes.

IF you want to discuss apparent voter fraud, there have been 6 individuals charged that I am aware of. 4 of these people were in California and were contesting local Mayoral contests (all DNC people in strong DNC areas). The 2 individuals outside of California are both registered Republicans.


Basically, it’s probably the fairest election the US has had for decades.

 

[TempletonTheRat]

Footage of poll working writing:
There is footage of a poll working filling in the missing address on an envelope of a mail in ballot. Yet to see anyone filling in the actual ballot... (I spend lots of time on US forums with Trump heads, they post lots of stuff that we get to discuss).

Electronic flipping:
The computer systems are able to switch votes, because they provide a print out that the voter checks to confirm that it recorded the correct vote. The voter then places that printed receipt into a separate ballot box. The printed receipt is then both counted quickly by a machine & also by a manual hand count. The manual hand count has always matched the machine count.... so that conspiracy theory is completely debunked. Once you understand the system, then you know that theory is false.

Dead people voting:
All the apparently dead people listed as voting by the GOP have been found either:
Alive; someone else with a similar name; dead & didn’t vote (because they are dead); OR in 1 case a GOP supporter who has been charged with fraud for trying to vote on behalf of his dead wife.

Late votes:
The story about votes turning up late, has been disproven in Atlanta. Another case is actually counted votes arriving from a smaller booth for safe keeping in a more secure location.
In Pennsylvania, under 500 votes arrived after Election Day that were postmarked prior to Election Day. These votes have been countered but only recently added to the tally, due to a court proceeding that failed to have them thrown out (note: these votes actually favoured Trump but they tried to have them thrown out!!).

All of these court cases that Trump has brought have been mostly procedural issues. In one case, it involved roughly 50 invalid votes and the Trump campaign tried to have 6.8Million votes thrown out because local GOP officials didn’t notify those ~50 individuals that they could fix their mail in votes.

IF you want to discuss apparent voter fraud, there have been 6 individuals charged that I am aware of. 4 of these people were in California and were contesting local Mayoral contests (all DNC people in strong DNC areas). The 2 individuals outside of California are both registered Republicans.


Basically, it’s probably the fairest election the US has had for decades.

The majority of the allegations raised by poll watchers were thrown out due to them
1- not understanding the process
2 - hadn't attended "training" sessions
3 - was based on hearsay.
4 - couldn't prove they were treated differently to other poll watchers

D Mitchell is either too lazy to find the facts, ignorant, stupid or is the best sealion on this board.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Who you consider reasoning with is up to you but to say that to protest against persons DOING THEIR JOB is undemocratic is ridiculous. Soldiers, Politicians, Police, Coal miners, Timber Workers, all doing their jobs are regularly the subject of protest. That's not undemocratic, let alone a threat to democracy.

As KH said earlier, you just have no idea. In this instance, you fail to have any understanding of why preventing the counting of votes in an election by appointed officials constitutes a threat to democracy.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

D Mitchell is either Old as * or is the best sealion on this board.

EFA

I genuinely don't know which of the above is true.

Watching the constant shifting of the goal posts is an amusing way to pass the time either way.

Im looking forward to the Smartmatic and Dominion nonsense to emerge next.

As KH said earlier, you just have no idea. In this instance, you fail to have any understanding of why preventing the counting of votes in an election by appointed officials constitutes a threat to democracy.

There's the whole inviting of the two leading republicans from the Michigan state house to the White House on the eve of the state being awarded to Biden that kinda runs counter to his narrative of Trump being a defender of he democratic process. I wont bother with the assertion that the legal system is independent.

 

[Floridog]

The Republicans have put a lot of time and effort into trying to find evidence of voter fraud for the past twenty years.. Hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars and tremendous amounts of FBI man hours. All for an excuse to pursue their voter suppression agenda. Yes, they've found a few isolated cases and have used those anecdotal tales to try to make it seem far more extensive. But it's mostly just stupid, confused or lazy voters not following proper procedures for registering. And yes, you can always find dead people on the voter rolls. Alas, some people die between the time they register and the actual election and sometimes between the time they mail in their vote and the actual election. Over those twenty years there have been eight convictions for voter fraud. All were people who voted twice. Mostly people who own homes in two different states and vote in person in one state while voting by mail in the other. More of them were Republicans than Democrats. Us working class Dems can't afford vacation homes in another state. The Cato Institute, a Republican think tank recently completed an extensive study of mail in voting, looking for fraud to support Trump's statements about the dangers of mail in ballots. They looked at the last twenty years, over a quarter of a billion mail in votes and found the fraud rate to be zero point zero zero zero six percent. Our elections are safe. We have very dedicated people working hard to keep them so. The biggest threat is voter suppression. Which has a very long history here and HAS been a tactic of the Republican party for quite some time now. And that is exactly what their goal is with all these unfounded accusations of voter fraud.

 

[D Mitchell]

...Not once have any of these people dared to mutter the word fraud in front of a judge. Indeed Rudi Guliani was forced to make it explicit in court last week that the action he was arguing was not one based around the accusation of fraud. Not even he is dumb enough to run the risk disbarment if he did.

There is a very good reason that lawyers who understand and specialise in election law have run away from this dog and pony show and it has been left to the likes of Rudi, loons like the recently dismissed Sidney Powell and the grifting Jenna Ellis.

That not once have any of these people dared to mutter the word fraud in front of a judge is something I hadn’t come across before. I went back to an archive of cases on the Democracy Docket website and had a quick look at cases reproduced there filed since the election. There are 35 there. A number have been finalised. The judges include in their reasons that certification has to take place by a certain time. All that I’ve read plead process issues. Among those still afoot are 6 where fraud matters are also pleaded. Most have been before a judge at least once so far. So much for not once have any of these people dared to mutter the word fraud in front of a judge and There is a very good reason that lawyers who understand and specialise in election law have run away from this dog and pony show and it has been left to the likes of Rudi, loons like the recently dismissed Sidney Powell and the grifting Jenna Ellis

The cases

Rodimer v Gloria. Filed 19/ November 2020. alleges
1. Irregularities, improprieties & Fraud
2. Mail in ballots sent to all voters, wrong addresses, votes by other than the named in the ballot.
3. Parties voting twice
4. Dead people voting
5. Lack of authentication of identity of voters

Trump & Pence. Petition for Recount Wisconsin Elsecttions Comnmission 18/11/20. Alleges
1. Mistake and Fraud and
2. Alteration of Ballots by Municipal Clerks on instructions from the Elector Board

Watch Miller Hovey Sutfin v Gtriswold. 18/11/20 Alleges
1. Excess of votes over registration for votes
2. Failure to identify voters.

Law McDonald DeGraffenreid Hindle Reece Meehan v Whitmer, Mahler TYhroneberry Blanco D’Ayr Cancella 17/11/20 Alleges
1. Dead voters
2. Ballots received post deadline
3. Voters arriving to vote found they had already voted.
4. Multiple voting by voters
5. Voters not eligible to vote

Aguilera v Fontes 12/11/20. Alleges
Failure to have vote counted

Trump & Henry v Bookvar, Allegheny CBE 15/11/20 Alleges
1. Preferential treatment by the Board in allowing Democrat registered voters ballots with errors to be counted and those with Republican registered voters to be discarded.
2. Failure to allow scruitineers.

The case in which Guilani is scoffed at as being forced to make it explicit in court last week that the action he was arguing was not one based around the accusation of fraud is reproduced in the Archive. It was indeed not a case about fraud, never pleaded. Risk of disbarment ?
I referred to and provided a link in post 1,043.

If you get your information from twitter, you run the risk of such howlers.

 

[D Mitchell]

Footage of poll working writing:
There is footage of a poll working filling in the missing address on an envelope of a mail in ballot. Yet to see anyone filling in the actual ballot... (I spend lots of time on US forums with Trump heads, they post lots of stuff that we get to discuss).

Electronic flipping:
The computer systems are not able to switch votes, because they provide a print out that the voter checks to confirm that it recorded the correct vote. The voter then places that printed receipt into a separate ballot box. The printed receipt is then both counted quickly by a machine & also by a manual hand count. The manual hand count has always matched the machine count.... so that conspiracy theory is completely debunked. Once you understand the system, then you know that theory is false.

Dead people voting:
All the apparently dead people listed as voting by the GOP have been found either:
Alive; someone else with a similar name; dead & didn’t vote (because they are dead); OR in 1 case a GOP supporter who has been charged with fraud for trying to vote on behalf of his dead wife.

Late votes:
The story about votes turning up late, has been disproven in Atlanta. Another case is actually counted votes arriving from a smaller booth for safe keeping in a more secure location.
In Pennsylvania, under 500 votes arrived after Election Day that were postmarked prior to Election Day. These votes have been countered but only recently added to the tally, due to a court proceeding that failed to have them thrown out (note: these votes actually favoured Trump but they tried to have them thrown out!!).

All of these court cases that Trump has brought have been mostly procedural issues. In one case, it involved roughly 50 invalid votes and the Trump campaign tried to have 6.8Million votes thrown out because local GOP officials didn’t notify those ~50 individuals that they could fix their mail in votes.

IF you want to discuss apparent voter fraud, there have been 6 individuals charged that I am aware of. 4 of these people were in California and were contesting local Mayoral contests (all DNC people in strong DNC areas). The 2 individuals outside of California are both registered Republicans.


Basically, it’s probably the fairest election the US has had for decades.

Your various explanations may well turn out to be true. Your explanations say a bit about where you are getting your information from. I imagine you are already but you should refer to Kenny, Credlin and the FOX commentators for balance. Your treatment of the Dead People voting may be premature. In the cases to be decided, listed above, no evidence that you'd expect to be relied upon is included in the material in Archive. It may be that there is none, it might also be that it is substantial because in one of the cases there is a reference to a disparity of 90,000 plus between ballots sent out and currently listed voters.

I'm curious why you conclude that this is the fairest election the US has had for decades. In the cases there are 2 computer programs criticised that haven't been used before this election.

 

[TMoney22]

If it was the other way around the usual mob in here would be all over the fraud presenting them as facts and demanding recounts etc. It is so obvious especially those with degrees from University of twitter and you tube.
Now I'm sure there was dodgy stuff going on for both sides, maybe more from the Biden side but i doubt it would be a significant difference. If votes come in late, who cares just count them anyway unless they are dodgy. And the dominion stuff is just BS, the amount of people it would take to dodgy the machines is too much. Especially any coding logic would be plain to see by many. It would have already got out prior to all this and the company would be bankrupt.

However any accusations should be investigated, isn't that democracy but I guess it doesn't align with the sheep dog views of the mob.

 

[D Mitchell]

...

Are you happy with the recruitment of Martin and Treloar

If we were to have to spend all our remaining draft picks to secure Ugle-Hagan, if there was ever a year in which to miss out on the Draft it's 2020, nobody played football in Victoria and the WAFL,SANFL, TFL players wouldn't be able to show much. On the other hand, Ugle-Hagan, Treloar, Hannon, Stefan Martin

8

Stefan Martin

Age

37

Ht

198cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.4

4star

K

8.4

3star

HB

8.0

5star

CL

4.0

5star

HO

23.5

5star

D

6.4

1star

K

4.2

2star

HB

2.2

2star

CL

2.6

4star

HO

18.4

5star

D

11.6

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

5.6

4star

HO

1.0

4star

. An already young list, the long awaited superstar-in-waiting, the accidental champ, the small (6 ft 3), goal kicking forward and the relief ruckman. A good haul.