Mega Thread The Random Thoughts Thread Part 3: Try Hard with a Kengeance

[chiwigi]

Why not? Compare pay structures, agreements, contracts, heirachies etc etc

It's a cop out to just say "nahh, this is a technical area, you cant compare it to social research or medicine or teaching or child care or human resources"

We don't want to compare it because we know the answer is uncomfortable. And that answer is:

Our gloriously prestigious and male dominated technical industries aren't special, don't have more demand, don't have less supply, aren't more difficult than the industries women dominate.

They just inexplicably pay better.

It's not a cop out. It's a reality that applies to male teachers and nurses as well.

The better pay in tech industries is not inexplicable, it's where the private and government funding is. Moreso than education and health.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Rasheed is an excellent manager and a great mentor, he was not as gifted as some others on the court but he is very gifted between the ears.

I wasn't having a crack it highlights where Nick's head is at, still humorous though.

 

[Doctor Feel]

I wasn't having a crack it highlights where Nick's head is at, still humorous though.

Yeah my post was more of an opinion/statement than debating anything you said.

 

[Janus]

Since it's Rogue One week:

 

[bomberclifford]

In addition what these women did was way harder and intellectually demanding than "programming" JavaScript.

lol

 

[Doctor Feel]

Since it's Rogue One week:

View attachment 318990

Why is Adam Gilchrist reviewing movies on twitter?

 

[ScooterBrother]

Why - because some careers are higher paying than others - its a fact of life, supply and demand etc - if you choose to follow a career path that has a lower pay scale, that's a decision you make. I chose at high school to study and aim for the career I wanted when my mates were ******* around - do I care now if they are working manual labour for bugger all - not really, they made their choice.

Yep, that's all fine, women are making the same choice and not getting paid the same as you.

On the flip side.

You don't get to spend as much time at home or with your children as women.

and as I said to Wharfie - don't get individual with this, think if it as trends and averages, not anecdotally.

If two people with the same role, same responsibilities, same experience are not being rewarded in the same way - that's discrimination,

Of course, and thats easy and definitive. Its also horizontal, rather than vertical. Of course the 6th member of a company's board who happens to be a female gets paid the same as the other 5. That's not the point. The point is that its 5 v1 in the first place. Or that the women has had to spend 5 more years at the grindstone to reach the same position. Or she had to give up family etc etc

Look up the stats for men on boards and in exec leadership, look up the balance for women in positions of power.

Sure, at lot of that is inherent in the choices we all make, that's not the argument, the argument is those choices shouldn't preclude or produce inequality in a fair and reasonable society.

but in my eyes saying that there are salary gaps between careers and that these are based on gender lines doesn't cut it. There's a lot of bloody low paying jobs out there, they aren't all held by women.

My partner makes shit loads more than me, but shes is in an industry that in general is high paying - she worked hard to get there and deserves what she gets, its a challenging and stressful technical industry - I chose not to go into that industry - so I see no point complaining that I don't get as much.

No, of course, think trends, not anecdotes

I'm assuming your not suggesting child carers or nurses (for instance) should be paid the same as doctors ? ...because thats how its coming across.

No, but a Nurse (4 year degree?) should get paid the same as a Civil Engineer at a Council. For example. Supply and demand! Supply and demand I hear people cry - Bullshit!

I am also saying that the positions of leadership, within say, a healthcare industry? Dominated by women right? 92 of the top 100 hospitals CEO's are ... Men. 92%. Admittedly that's in the US but the trends is the same here with 17% of all CEO's being Women.

So again, it's not that like for like isn't paid the same, it's that women don't get to be in the positions where they can be compared like for like. It's far more systemic.

 

[Malibu#27]

Of course, and thats easy and definitive. Its also horizontal, rather than vertical. Of course the 6th member of a company's board who happens to be a female gets paid the same as the other 5. That's not the point. The point is that its 5 v1 in the first place. Or that the women has had to spend 5 more years at the grindstone to reach the same position. Or she had to give up family etc etc

Now its starting to sound like you want quotas on boards - that's never going to work and would be completely unfair if it did. Its a fact of life there are more men in the workforce - there probably always will be - and its not all because of discrimination.
In cases where a woman has to spend an extra 5 years at the grindstone, sure thats unfair and should be stamped out - no arguments.

No, but a Nurse (4 year degree?) should get paid the same as a Civil Engineer at a Council.

No - they are clearly two different jobs and as such have little correlation.

 

[ScooterBrother]

lol

I cant tell if you're laughing because its absurdly true or because you think its inaccurate.

These women programmed and implemented the first fully electronic computer for the US military which calculated ballistic trajectory with complicated calculus. They had to troubleshoot and fix problems on the fly. They had to work out how the "Brain" was structured and solve sorting algorithms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Holberton went on to work on the development of COBAL and FORTRAN with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

They were amazing people and make script kiddies playing around in web development today look like pea brains.

 

[ScooterBrother]

Now its starting to sound like you want quotas on boards - that's never going to work and would be completely unfair if it did. Its a fact of life there are more men in the workforce - there probably always will be - and its not all because of discrimination.
In cases where a woman has to spend an extra 5 years at the grindstone, sure thats unfair and should be stamped out - no arguments.

Quotas don't work and they are unfair. They also exacerbate the problem as if a minority gets a role it is implied they didn't get it on merit, which further devalues them.

What I am saying is there are structural, societal and systemic variances in our workplaces which create a gender pay gap. Things like Parental leave, Child custody, Divorce settlements, workplace preferences combine with just blatant "women aren't as good" thinking to create this gap.

We can play with the knobs and levers for the aforementioned and over time it will correct the latter.

No - they are clearly two different jobs and as such have little correlation.

Why?

Both require technical knowledge.
Both require a 4 year qualification.
Both are paid for out of the public purse.
Both have about the same supply and demand.

In fact I would argue that Nurses should be paid significantly more due to the inherent difficulty with hours and workplace stress.

A civil engineer at a metropolitan council - $85-$100k?
A Nurse at a metropolitan hospital - $60-80k?

 

[Papa G]

Yep, that's all fine, women are making the same choice and not getting paid the same as you.

On the flip side.

You don't get to spend as much time at home or with your children as women.

and as I said to Wharfie - don't get individual with this, think if it as trends and averages, not anecdotally.
Of course, and thats easy and definitive. Its also horizontal, rather than vertical. Of course the 6th member of a company's board who happens to be a female gets paid the same as the other 5. That's not the point. The point is that its 5 v1 in the first place. Or that the women has had to spend 5 more years at the grindstone to reach the same position. Or she had to give up family etc etc

Look up the stats for men on boards and in exec leadership, look up the balance for women in positions of power.

Sure, at lot of that is inherent in the choices we all make, that's not the argument, the argument is those choices shouldn't preclude or produce inequality in a fair and reasonable society.

No, of course, think trends, not anecdotes

No, but a Nurse (4 year degree?) should get paid the same as a Civil Engineer at a Council. For example. Supply and demand! Supply and demand I hear people cry - Bullshit!

I am also saying that the positions of leadership, within say, a healthcare industry? Dominated by women right? 92 of the top 100 hospitals CEO's are ... Men. 92%. Admittedly that's in the US but the trends is the same here with 17% of all CEO's being Women.

So again, it's not that like for like isn't paid the same, it's that women don't get to be in the positions where they can be compared like for like. It's far more systemic.

Dude, it's been a basically 1 generation where women have been accepted into any type of positions of power in the workforce. 1 generation. After literally thousands of years. There is always going to be some catch up. A lot of women still have babies too. Sorry, but if a man had 2,3,4, 5 years out of the workforce, it would probably effect his ability to climb the corporate ladder too. Sorry if this is news to you, or you think it unfair, but it's the truth.

 

[Malibu#27]

Why?

Both require technical knowledge.
Both require a 4 year qualification.
Both are paid for out of the public purse.
Both have about the same supply and demand.

In fact I would argue that Nurses should be paid significantly more due to the inherent difficulty with hours and workplace stress.

A civil engineer at a metropolitan council - $85-$100k?
A Nurse at a metropolitan hospital - $60-80k?

A couple reasons - and I assume you are only referring to registered nurses:

1) Not all 'technical knowledge' as you say it is the same, or to put it another way - different Uni courses have different levels of complexity and different entrance criteria to suit them - none of which are gender specific AFAIK.
2) A civil engineer isn't going to stay in a metropolitan council for that money when he can get much more in private industry. Public salaries are generally ok for the first part of your career, but they seem to plateau pretty quickly compared to the private sector.

 

[Steve Dore]

Why is Adam Gilchrist reviewing movies on twitter?

Because he doesn't have a Facebook account.

Anyway he was always pretty good at identifying the big hits.

 

[ScooterBrother]

Dude, it's been a basically 1 generation where women have been accepted into any type of positions of power in the workforce. 1 generation. After literally thousands of years. There is always going to be some catch up.

Totally agree! You're 100% right.

A lot of women still have babies too. Sorry, but if a man had 2,3,4, 5 years out of the workforce, it would probably effect his ability to climb the corporate ladder too. Sorry if this is news to you, or you think it unfair, but it's the truth.

I think when a couple has a baby, they amount of time spent at home raising that baby should be equal. Thus, the amount of time missed at the workplace, would also be equal.

 

[Steve Dore]

.... These women programmed and implemented the first fully electronic computer for the US military which calculated ballistic trajectory with complicated calculus. They had to troubleshoot and fix problems on the fly. They had to work out how the "Brain" was structured and solve sorting algorithms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Holberton went on to work on the development of COBAL and FORTRAN with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper
.......

It is sad to think that two people so gifted at maths should be involved in the development of COBOL.

"Grace, we just want you to take this differential equation and turn it into a 3,000 word essay."

.... They were amazing people and make script kiddies playing around in web development today look like pea brains.

This is true. They were very talented and intelligent people.

 

[Malibu#27]

I think when a couple has a baby, they amount of time spent at home raising that baby should be equal. Thus, the amount of time missed at the workplace, would also be equal.

See I think it should be up to the couple to decide.

 

[ScooterBrother]

A couple reasons - and I assume you are only referring to registered nurses:

1) Not all 'technical knowledge' as you say it is the same, or to put it another way - different Uni courses have different levels of complexity and different entrance criteria to suit them - none of which are gender specific AFAIK.

Hmmmmm we're getting into the nitty gritty again.

Who decides what is complex and what isn't and how is that measured?

Could there possible be a connection between what Men think is difficult or complex and the value we associate with it in society?

2) A civil engineer isn't going to stay in a metropolitan council for that money when he can get much more in private industry. Public salaries are generally ok for the first part of your career, but they seem to plateau pretty quickly compared to the private sector.

True and agreed. Which of those is more conducive to a 28 yr old female Engineer about to have a baby?

You're almost agreeing with me.

See I think it should be up to the couple to decide.

Of course, i'll rephrase,.

Men and women should have the same amount of paid parental leave given to them from a mixture of the employer and government. Personally it should be 6 months for both.

 

[Lou Zyffer]

So I'm driving along Hanson road Davoren Park about 9:00 this morning when I glimpse a fairly pregnant woman pushing a pram whilst sucking on a ciggie.

It's a good look.

 

[BornPort]

I'm always curious as to why some people scoff at JavaScript?

 

[Doctor Feel]

I'm always curious as to why some people scoff at JavaScript?

It's very easy to code, and has amazing functionality with JSON, the only reason I could see people scoffing at it is because it's such an easy language.

 

[LFC2010]

So I'm driving along Hanson road Davoren Park about 9:00 this morning when I glimpse a fairly pregnant woman pushing a pram whilst sucking on a ciggie.

It's a good look.

as soon as I read Hanson Road I stopped reading.

 

[Dylan8]

I'm always curious as to why some people scoff at JavaScript?

Right? The greatest MMORPG was built on it.

 

[Malibu#27]

Hmmmmm we're getting into the nitty gritty again.

Who decides what is complex and what isn't and how is that measured?

Could there possible be a connection between what Men think is difficult or complex and the value we associate with it in society?

No we aren't getting into nitty gritty - you are generalising by saying x yrs at uni for both courses meaning they are both equally difficult - this is false. Its a fact of life some courses are more difficult than others academically - and it not the duration that's the deciding factor. Just like at high school in yr 12 you could do Maths 1 & 2 or Business maths.

True and agreed. Which of those is more conducive to a 28 yr old female Engineer about to have a baby?

I'd argue the higher paying job as you get the opportunity to save more money over time to extend your leave if you need, but in reality it depends on the individual employer.

You're almost agreeing with me.

Trust me - i'm not

Of course, i'll rephrase,.

Men and women should have the same amount of paid parental leave given to them from a mixture of the employer and government. Personally it should be 6 months for both.

Who pays for parental leave is a whole other ballgame that I don't want to get into here.

 

[Magus]

Dude, it's been a basically 1 generation where women have been accepted into any type of positions of power in the workforce. 1 generation. After literally thousands of years. There is always going to be some catch up. A lot of women still have babies too. Sorry, but if a man had 2,3,4, 5 years out of the workforce, it would probably effect his ability to climb the corporate ladder too. Sorry if this is news to you, or you think it unfair, but it's the truth.

There's been a "workforce" for thousands of years?

 

[NoddyHolder]

So I'm driving along Hanson road Davoren Park about 9:00 this morning when I glimpse a fairly pregnant woman pushing a pram whilst sucking on a ciggie.

It's a good look.

Was she 'working'?