the shinboner spirit is lacking

[magoo]

burton,clayton, robbins, sav, porter, colbert, baird, blakey, burke, mclaren, harding, mccartney, sinclair.

is this really a north melbourne team or a bag of mixed lollies?

how does pagan instill a sense of "us versus them" when a third of the list was once them?

do you guys think this is a problem? when you consider our recent success have been largely built on the back of a large number of shinboner only types.... carey, stevens, archer, rock, crocker, scholl, longmire, mckernan, schwass, anderson, smith, fairley, king, harvey, picket, simpson. with only occasional fill-in added. the list of recruits seem to almost overwhelm grassroots kangaroos only players.... bring on petrie, motlops, smith, harris, pratt, hale. i want a new bunch of players who are shinboner only.
with the true shinboner spirit then when we are getting beaten are lads will make them pay for every possesion instead of just giving up like we did on saturday.

 

[roobear]

I can see where you're coming from, magoo, but it's more to do with the structure of the competition. We can't bring kids in and develop them through from Under 19's and upwards. What we witnessed in the 90's was probably the last great "true Shinboners" team. With smaller lists and older drafting age, there is much less chance of a strong core coming through at any team, and these "mixed bags" will be more prevalent. Better recruiting will be paramount to ensure teams have the right balance of players, and as many as possible youngsters can play together and develop bonds like the one that gelled our 96 side together.
But don't forget, that side also included blokes like Laidley, Bell, Roberts, King (recruited from the vfa in his 20's) and Blakey.

Originally posted by magoo
pay for every possesion instead of just giving up like we did on saturday.

I might be Robinson Crusoe here, but I thought we matched it pretty well in the second half. They only scored 8 points more than us after half time.

 

[Angus1]

I don't think it has much to do with it really. The way footy is these days players chop and change from team to team and as a player you do your best for that particular team.
Spirit for one team is going if it isn't gone already but there will always be some players like Mick you just love to play for North Melboune but in the future that will be gone too.
It's just another way how the AFL have tried to stuff what was once a great competition.
We booed Sav at Collingwood now we cheer him at North.
The spirit comes from the supporters like us who have only ever had one team that we love.

 

[magoo]

do you really think so?

tell me how many of the teams which have done well over the last decade or so have large numbers of imports..... ie have west coast, kangaroos, adelaide, essendon and brisbane (when they won their premierships) have large numbers of recruits?

 

[Marty Monster]

Originally posted by magoo
do you really think so?

tell me how many of the teams which have done well over the last decade or so have large numbers of imports..... ie have west coast, kangaroos, adelaide, essendon and brisbane (when they won their premierships) have large numbers of recruits?

Kangaroos 96 and 99 players from other clubs: Laidley, Grant, Scott, Blakey, Pike, Abraham, Clayton and Bell

Brisbane from last year: Michael, Pike, Johnson and Lynch

I know there were more, but I don't think w can really complain about the players we get from other clubs

 

[Carlos]

In some ways, it could almost work in reverse. For ages our core group was made up of those in the "old shinbonner" mould. It could almost have been the case that it was very hard to break in and truly bond with this core as they were so tight that it created a hierachy.

On one hand you had the group that all came through the under 19's together under Pagan, and then the next group down with the likes of Grant, Simmo and Boomer, who might have been able to better gel with the imports form other clubs by virtue of age and not having been part of that heirachy and then you have the youngsters and fringe players who almost have to form a group of their own to feel like they belong.

We always hear Denis talk about the quality of his leaders, and its almost like he is blind in his favouritism of them (fair enough to an extent considering what they have achieved for him). But if you're a Shannon Watt or an Adam Lange, you have to work your guts out just to be noticed.

 

[roowatch]

Most of the Brisbane team was drafted from outside of Qld. Yes, I know they then developed together, but the starting point was different to the old U.19 days.

I always think the "spirit" is something that comes from within a particular group. o matter how successful a side has been they always have retirements, delistings, injuries, recruits to change the perfect mix. (Except maybe for Brisbane!!!)

Spirit will develop in any group which is willing to work with and for each other. (I think I've listened to too many of Pagan's homilies!)

Don't think the imports are effecting the spirit. Maybe the quality of the imports is effecting the performance, which in turn, saps the confidence and the spirit.

 

[great]

Recruiting youth vs patch up players

This subject was spoken about by Healey ,Walls and Shehan in the "On the couch" show on Foxtel.

The theory was how Carlton has gone for recycled players and their current plight may be a direct result of poor recruiting of recycled players rather than youth.

On the other hand , they were suggesting a team like North that has had a lot of recent success , struggles to draft quality youngsters because more often than not , they go to teams who finish well below them.(earlier picks)

As a result a hole is filled with a recycled player rather than a promising youngster.

I can't recall the exact number but wasn't it earlier this year that we had the lowest picks we have had for some time?

Shinboner Spirit is something that has evolved from the North teams of old and these teams were made up from players sourced from the old recruiting zones (Ovens/ Murray .....EDFL Oak Park , Westmedows Brunswick and others)

Corey McKernan was the last of current players sourced from that zone.

With no Under 19 competition and the draft as it is now ,it is hard for a club to maintain a "locality" about it's team.

 

[Carlos]

Good point Cororoo.

That genuine team "Shinboner" spirit as we are calling it that we had throughout the 90's, with essentially the same core group throughout, will never been seen again.

I think it now comes in waves. Look at Essendon for example. They were a rabble from 96 to 99. Then they cleaned out, and had a group of youngsters who had all come through together who now form a big part of their core.

We have the potential for something similar. Not saying we have a heap of deadwood like Essendon did, but with a core group of youngsters like Harris, Smith, Petrie, Pratt, Crowe, Foott, Watson, Hale as well as possibly Watt, Lange, McLaren, Rawlings (if they ever pull their fingers out!!) who will have been playing together in the Murray Kangas for a while and will have formed a bond hopefully pushing for spots over the next year or two, we have the potential for a very tight unit to support whoever will be our elite core players at that time, and to eventually take over as that elite group.

 

[mighty mick]

I think it now comes in waves. Look at Essendon for example. They were a rabble from 96 to 99. Then they cleaned out, and had a group of youngsters who had all come through together who now form a big part of their core.

each team has waves of success and distress, the roos at the moment are unstable and it isnt helping the rebuilding process.
until the team has moulded together as a solid work grp who all think along the same lines, we will be no better than the stkildas trying to force thier players into situations they cant handle, or the injured essendons and carltons of the comp.

im not a pessimist but its not our time for a while anyway.

 

[roobear]

Originally posted by Carlos
Look at Essendon for example. They were a rabble from 96 to 99.

Carlos I don't think you could call them a rabble. They missed the 96 and 99 Grand Finals by a point each time, after winning it in 93. I hate saying this, but if there is any team we should be striving to emulate, it is them.

 

[magoo]

i have no bones at having some imports into the club to add depth were needed. however, almost half of our team are imports.

as mentioned, surely the bombers are a case in point. their current team has probably only two imports that i can think of.
their team of 99,00,01,02 were blooded as a group in 97,98. they are on the record as saying that after we had repeatedly towelled them the decided to start again. in 98 sheedy was within a whisker of being dropped as coach as the "baby" bombers were losing alot. the following year they were almost unbeatable (until the S/final against carlton....ha ha ha ).

a large core group of players, who are talented, who all start playing aroung the same time and who are all peaking in their playing ability at the same time seems to be a crucial ingredient to success. combine that with a sense of "us" and you a combination as explosive as one part nitro and three parts glycerine.

 

[roowatch]

Hit the nail on the head Magoo with your line about "talented players". Amazing how much "spirit" can be generated from winning.

St Kilda has had excellent draft picks for the last 4 or 5 years, yet the issue felt most important to address this season was "spirit".

Not having talent/success/wins/ will drain the most spirited outfit.

 

[moomba]

I have been as guilty as anyone but I think we have got to be careful about forming all our opinions on the basis of that game.

Team spirit has been fine for the first five rounds, and as bad as it was, and as worrying as some of the signs were, I think if we can limit them to one shocker we will be doing alright.

If we can get up for a win in the West I am sure you will see the true shinboner spirit in abundance.

I'll stand corrected but I think we copped some absolute floggings in both 96 and 99 and watching those games (Sydney & Collingwood ?) You would have thought we were the worst team in the league. I guess the true sign of our spirit will be how well we can come back from the Hawks game.

Moomba

 

[Carlos]

Originally posted by roobear
Carlos I don't think you could call them a rabble. They missed the 96 and 99 Grand Finals by a point each time, after winning it in 93. I hate saying this, but if there is any team we should be striving to emulate, it is them.

Perhaps rabble, was a bit over the top, but you missed my point. 97 and 98 they were no where not in the best 6 or 7 teams in the comp. They had many players who had been on their list for a while and werent good enough. During this time, they had the likes of Lloyd, Solomon, the Johnsons, Caracella and numerous others all finding their feet at AFL level who have obviously developed into class players and part of the core of their recently successful team. Since then, they have totally changed the make-up of their team to the force that it is today, and the majority of them are "home grown" youngsters who they drafted as kids and have come through together.

And as much as they have been powerful for a few years now, i think it was more a case of them trying to emulate what we achieved mate. Yes, they won a lucky flag in 93 when 2 or 3 teams were clearly better than them for the majority of the year, went missing until 96, when as you mentioned they made a prelim, went missing again till 99 and have been a force since. That doesnt equate to success when compared to what we achieved throughout the same period.

 

[roobear]

Originally posted by Carlos

Perhaps rabble, was a bit over the top, but you missed my point. 97 and 98 they were no where not in the best 6 or 7 teams in the comp. They had many players who had been on their list for a while and werent good enough. During this time, they had the likes of Lloyd, Solomon, the Johnsons, Caracella and numerous others all finding their feet at AFL level who have obviously developed into class players and part of the core of their recently successful team. Since then, they have totally changed the make-up of their team to the force that it is today, and the majority of them are "home grown" youngsters who they drafted as kids and have come through together.

And as much as they have been powerful for a few years now, i think it was more a case of them trying to emulate what we achieved mate. Yes, they won a lucky flag in 93 when 2 or 3 teams were clearly better than them for the majority of the year, went missing until 96, when as you mentioned they made a prelim, went missing again till 99 and have been a force since. That doesnt equate to success when compared to what we achieved throughout the same period.

Fair call. Perhaps we missed each other's points! I'm saying that they made the preliminary in 96, then had TWO lean years, since which they've been among the comp's best. By comparison, we made the preliminary in 2000, and if we can achieve just 2 lean years (with this being the second) before getting back to the top 4 status to which we have become accustomed, then we have done bloody well, and emulated them in that sense.

Quite frankly, I think we can do it, and I don't subscribe to the theory that we need to be bottom 6 for the next 3 or 4 years to build a good team of kids. If we keep developing and bringing through the ones we've got, we can be as strong as anybody.

Sanest point of this whole thread, though, goes to Moomba. We have copped one hiding at the moment, and we certainly didn't go without hidings in our prior successful years. It's not even remotely time to hit the panic button just yet.

 

[Carlos]

Agree. As much as i think we are a bit short of the mark as far as being a realistic premiership threat, it dont think we are too far off having the mix right.

We still have a great elite group, full of premiership and All Australian players. IMO its the middle bracket that is the questionable thing right now. While Spider has improved to now almost be in our elite group and Cochrane, Clayton, Makepeace and possibly Shannon Motlop all look to have stepped up and are staking their claim for core spots, we still lack depth and class in that second tier. Lange looks to be floundering, Rawlings hasnt shown he is up to it, Watt is struggling for opportunity for one reason or another, ditto McLaren and you could throw Sinclair in there also. These are the blokes who we need to be applying pressure to add depth to that middle rung group.

But where these guys are falling short, i hold great hope for the likes of Harding, Morrell, Harris, Jones, Smith, Junior Motlop and hopefully Pratt and this year's batch of youngsters to step up in the near future and provide depth and class to that part of our list and team. Only then will we be on the path to the top 4 IMO.

 

[Holycrap]

That genuine team "Shinboner" spirit as we are calling it that we had throughout the 90's, with essentially the same core group throughout, will never been seen again.

I think it's a bit harsh saying that the current crop of players don't represent the true shinboner spirit. I'm pretty sure player's like Blakey or Macca and even young Harris personify the shinboner spirit - play for the club but importantly for one another.
I thought that the shinboner spirit is instilled onto every player the minute he walks into Ardent St. Pagan for one, reinforces that spirit during training, team meeting and game days. I'm sure that the recruiting staff find players that would fit the North Melb club mold - there is no place for a player that is selfish or disruptive to team harmony no matter how talented he is.

In fact, the shinboner spirit has changed over a few decades - John Kennedy transformed the spirit of the club to be on the lines of the Hawthorn family club theme where players played for the club and the supporters not the individual and every player was expected to put there bodies on the line - Johnny Law, Fairly, Glenndining, Krakour's, Larkin's, German's came from that era.

Pagan took it further by adding success and thats what many of us have been so used to in the last decade - a team that strived to play tough uncomprising football yet be successful.

Would you say the great 70's team lack that spirit, a team that was comprised of home grown talent with players from the 10 year rule?

If you ever thought that not having the U19's has eroded the cultivating of the shinboner image just take a look at what Pagan did during a hard training session last year involving young Harris - he took the mark but got flatten, Pagan, at the top of his lungs, screamed out 'Get up! Get up! Kick the goal'. Harris got up and kicked the goal. Right there and then, Pagan was instilling to the young player and other players of what is to be expected. Peter Bell was a classic example of a player that no-one wanted and he was transformed into one of the best midfielders in the comp.

That core group of the 90's may never be duplicated just like the Tigers will never duplicate the great tiger sides of the 70's, Hawthorn the 80's, Melbourne the 50's. But we have to give time for a new group of footballers to establish that group and provide their on brand of football. - Harvey, Grant, Pickett, Simpson (maybe Makepeace) are the current 25 and under players that maybe be the core group for the next 5 years.

Lets hope that Porter, Jnr, Morell, Petrie, Lange, Sinclair, Robbins, Baird, Harris, Smith join them as our next set of core players.

Only time will tell....

 

[Dingster]

Originally posted by Holycrap
That genuine team "Shinboner" spirit as we are calling it that we had throughout the 90's, with essentially the same core group throughout, will never been seen again.

I think it's a bit harsh saying that the current crop of players don't represent the true shinboner spirit.

.....especially if you watched the round one game and listened to the song afterwards.

 

[Yianni]

Originally posted by moomba
I'll stand corrected but I think we copped some absolute floggings in both 96 and 99 and watching those games (Sydney & Collingwood ?) You would have thought we were the worst team in the league. I guess the true sign of our spirit will be how well we can come back from the Hawks game.

Moomba

True Moomba, but we also dished out some floggings. It's been a while since we've done that on any regular basis. Recently, we only seem to win small and lose big. That's what worries me.