The Syrian War

[Johnny Bananas]

Botswana don't have laws against non-Tswana people, even though they have about the same number of minorities as a place like Israel.

I suppose I'm using ethnostate to mean one with a dominant ethnic group and language, rather than a state run for that majority ethnic group to the exclusion of all others. Perhaps there's a different term for what I mean.

 

[Saint]

I suppose I'm using ethnostate to mean one with a dominant ethnic group and language, rather than a state run for that majority ethnic group to the exclusion of all others. Perhaps there's a different term for what I mean.

Monocultural maybe.

It's a difficult area.

But I take an ethno-state to be one where ethnicity and the state are entwined with laws reinforcing it, like Israel.

Lebanon is a bit of a multi-cultural ethno-state with laws based on ethnicity for power-sharing agreements. I don't know what the longevity of something like that is.

Places like Kenya (and most of Africa) have parties aligned with ethnicity but the constitution and laws are usually separate. But they all like passing Jim-Crow style laws aimed at one group or another, just like the duopolies in Aus and US like trying to alienate smaller parties and make the system harder for them.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Monocultural maybe.

It's a difficult area.

But I take an ethno-state to be one where ethnicity and the state are entwined with laws reinforcing it, like Israel.

I suppose so. Regardless, al-Sharaa isn't going to relinquish any power or territory unless Turkey or Israel force him to.

Lebanon is a bit of a multi-cultural ethno-state with laws based on ethnicity for power-sharing agreements. I don't know what the longevity of something like that is.

Seems to be more religion than ethnicity, right? They're all Arabs, the power sharing is between Sunnis, Shias and Christians.

 

[barreness]

Ethnostates may not feel like the nicest thing, but in many cases they have worked at avoiding conflict and societal unrest. The most successful country in Africa over the past 50 years is probably Botswana, one of very few ethnostates in the entire continent.

Botswana is cool no doubt, my sister went there a few years back. I'd think the relatively hands off colonialism that it suffered was more a factor, Institutions survived from the pre and post period.

I reckon Libya(before the NATO murderers) is a better example for most successful African country and it was not a ethno state

Most states need something in common to tie them together, whether that's ethnicity, language, religion, culture, a monarch or an ideology. The only exception I can think of that is entirely successful is Switzerland. I don't know enough about Swiss history to understand why they've all managed to stay together this long. India is also an exception, though one with a majority religion, and the harmony has periodically fallen apart or never existed in areas with a dominant religion different to the national majority.

I don't really understand your argument? You seem to say ethnostates are cool then list a bunch of other reasons that multi ethnic states can work

Disparate groups also usually need federalism in order to stay together, because then they at least feel control over their own domestic affairs. This is very much the case in Switzerland and India, and even with the Kurds in Iraq to some degree.

Ok, kinda the US republic ideals, states rights and all that. I can get on board with this

Al-Sharaa is not going to embrace federalism, so he'll take the alternative approach of ruling with an iron fist and crushing any dissent, at least in the areas where Israel and Turkey let him govern.

I agree

Yugoslavia only succeeded because Tito was a charismatic leader, and also ran an authoritarian state and came down like a tonne of bricks on any nationalist movement. At least in theory, they had a common ideology keeping them together and some measure of federalism, but still it all went to shit when Tito died.

I think that's a bit simplified. Neither the Western bloc nor the Soviets particularly wanted them to succeed; no friends when things got tough and the west loves a nationalistic separatist

I'd argue that Yugoslavia not being divided into separate countries based on ethnicity just enabled a fascist like Milosevic to get the Serbs to dominate the rest, whereas that hasn't happened since being divided into smaller states. It doesn't mean it can't happen, just that it's less likely, unless we're talking about a powerful state like Russia or a state with powerful friends like Israel seeking to dominate others.


I am yet to see this proxy war emerge.

See this is revisionist, he rotted in the Hague for 5 years before being found posthumously guilty of sweet FA*.
The rewrite of history in regards to the NATO invasion on false premises of a genocide is silly, the same thing with Libya, the propaganda stays long after the corrections are noted




*I don't like him or his actions, he armed Bosnian Serbs (so kinda like Biden). Ratko is the one you want

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosni...l_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_Former_Yugoslavia
On 26 February 2007, however, in the Bosnian genocide case, the United Nations International Court of Justice (ICJ) found that there was no evidence linking Serbia under the rule of Milošević to genocide committed by Bosnian Serbs in the Bosnian War. However, the court did find that Milošević and others in Serbia did not do enough to prevent acts of genocide from occurring in Srebrenica.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I reckon Libya(before the NATO murderers) is a better example for most successful African country and it was not a ethno state

It's a lot easier to be successful if you're a petrostate led by a strongman who crushes all dissent. And Libya was very clearly a monocultural state (to use the alternative term suggested by Saint ), being more than 90% Arab and Muslim. Before anyone suggests it wasn't run for Arabs and Muslims, look at the official name of the country under Gaddafi, its flag and national anthem.

I don't really understand your argument? You seem to say ethnostates are cool then list a bunch of other reasons that multi ethnic states can work

Cool? Let's be serious here. I've said the vast majority of states that are stable and successful have something tying the people together. I've looked for counter-examples and really only come up with Switzerland and to a lesser extent India, though even India can be argued to be mostly tied together by religion so it might be a bad example. Weigh that up against the dozens of states with an ethnic majority. My argument is that it's generally very hard to keep states like that united without a lot of suffering.

I think that's a bit simplified. Neither the Western bloc nor the Soviets particularly wanted them to succeed; no friends when things got tough and the west loves a nationalistic separatist

You haven't said what is simplified. I outlined the facts, and the West did not create the instability in Yugoslavia that emerged in the post-Tito era. Nor does having external friends protect a regime, just look at Basher al-Assad or the last Shah of Iran.

See this is revisionist,

This isn't revisionist at all, he was a fascist who believed in Serbian supremacy and domination. You'll notice I didn't actually accuse him of carrying out a genocide. But as the court noted, he did nothing to stop it happening, because it fit his ideals of Serbian supremacy.

he rotted in the Hague for 5 years before being found posthumously guilty of sweet FA*.

Wrong. Since you're quoting Wikipedia, I'll quote it too:

Between 1991 and 1995, Martić held positions of minister of interior, minister of defense and president of the self-proclaimed "Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina" (SAO Krajina), which was later renamed "Republic of Serbian Krajina" (RSK). He was found to have participated during this period in a joint criminal enterprise which included Slobodan Milošević, whose aim was to create a unified Serbian state through commission of a widespread and systematic campaign of crimes against non-Serbs inhabiting areas in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina envisaged to become parts of such a state.

— International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, verdict against Milan Martić[164]

The Trial Chamber, therefore, finds proven beyond reasonable doubt that, from at least August 1991, and at all times relevant to the crimes charged in the Indictment, a common criminal purpose existed to forcibly and permanently remove, through the commission of the crimes of persecution, murder, deportation and inhumane acts (forcible transfer), the majority of non-Serbs, principally Croats, Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croats, from large areas of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Trial Chamber finds that the common criminal purpose, as defined above, was shared by senior political, military, and police leadership in Serbia, the SAO Krajina, the SAO SBWS, and Republika Srpska, with the core members, among others and varying depending on the area and timing of the commission of the crimes, being Slobodan Milošević.

— International Residual Mechanism for Criminal Tribunals, verdict against Stanišić and Simatović[165]

So he was found to have been jointly operating a racist criminal enterprise engaging in ethnic cleansing.

The rewrite of history in regards to the NATO invasion on false premises of a genocide is silly, the same thing with Libya, the propaganda stays long after the corrections are noted

Now it's my turn to not understand your argument. First you say there was false premises of a genocide, then you quote a passage from Wikipedia confirming that there was indeed a genocide committed in Bosnia, it's just that they couldn't find conclusive evidence to prove Milosevic planned it rather than sitting idly by while others planned it and then handing them arms.

Why you're going to such lengths to be an apologist for a fascist is beyond me.

 

[Freomaniac]

It was already a failed state, split amongst warring factions. Unfortunately no surprise, that once the world's eyes turned to the next global cluster**** (usually any time Trump opens his mouth), that'd be when 'payback' against Assad's power base would happen.

Not an ideal solution, but carving up the country into several smaller one's would be a reasonable solution. One for the Alawite's, one for the Kurds and one (largest) for the majority would be the least bad option. Keeping groups that hate each other together in boundaries randomly determined by Europe after WWI and WWII has been causing issues in the Middle East ever since. Separate countries won't make them all start liking each other (see Yugoslavia), but as that shows, if each major ethnic group gets their own country, it reduces (if unfortunately not outright eliminates) most of the death and destruction cycle of 'my turn on top, you suffer, now yours, I suffer, rinse and repeat'.

To be honest, Kurdistan should of been a nation after world war One ended when England and France carved up the middle East and made those borders.

Crazy there is 30 to 40 million Kurds spread in Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq

 

[Val Keating]

Man, so awful

 

[Val Keating]

 

[Val Keating]

 

[Val Keating]

 

[Val Keating]

 

[awaremind]

100% easily foreseeable , I’d say so predictable it’s deliberate.

 

[Val Keating]

100% easily foreseeable , I’d say so predictable it’s deliberate.

Set up to fail.

 

[awaremind]

Set up to fail.

Unstable nations can never build up their capabilities. A weak enemy can be better than a strong friend in some people’s calculations.

 

[barreness]

ISIS in a suit. This 'transitional govt' seems pretty interested in massacres

 

[Val Keating]

Interesting that the US have moved a bunch of Daesh from Syria into Iraq right near Iran.

 

[Zidane98]

It is about time there were serious discussions at UN level about creation of a Kurdistan state. By far the biggest group who don't have a state to call home and by far the most persecuted group in history with a population of nearly 45m.

 

[awaremind]

Interesting that the US have moved a bunch of Daesh from Syria into Iraq right near Iran.

Daesh interests have aligned with the nation we can’t criticise since they appeared.

 

[Val Keating]

Daesh interests have aligned with the nation we can’t criticise since they appeared.

Has the pig with lipstick on spoken about the recent atrocities?

 

[awaremind]

Has the pig with lipstick on spoken about the recent atrocities?

Why would he?
Unless you mean Lindsay Graham he was starting to get aroused by the idea of bombing Syria again.

 

[Val Keating]

Why would he?
Unless you mean Lindsay Graham he was starting to get aroused by the idea of bombing Syria again.

Because apparently he became a changed man when they put him in a suit and trimmed his beard..


Jeez I hate Lindsay. He was all giddy about the prospect of war with Iran and completely dejected when he spoke about not going to war.

Wish he’d just come out of the closet and stop getting his kicks by killing people.

 

[wannabejack]

Syria Terminates Russian Naval Base Deal – Reports - The Moscow Times

Syria’s new government terminated a treaty granting Russia a long-term military presence in the Mediterranean, a deal brokered under ousted leader Bashar al-Assad, Syrian media reported Tuesday.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Syria’s new government terminated a treaty granting Russia a long-term military presence in the Mediterranean, a deal brokered under ousted leader Bashar al-Assad, Syrian media reported Tuesday.

Authorities also said that revenue from the port would “now benefit the Syrian state,” reversing the previous agreement under which Russia received 65% of Tartus’ profits.

 

[RedOrWhite]

Because apparently he became a changed man when they put him in a suit and trimmed his beard..


Jeez I hate Lindsay. He was all giddy about the prospect of war with Iran and completely dejected when he spoke about not going to war.

Wish he’d just come out of the closet and stop getting his kicks by killing people.

I'd happily drop Graham out of a bomber plane without a parachute tbf, he's as vile as anyone in DC including Donnie boy.

 

[awaremind]

Syria Terminates Russian Naval Base Deal – Reports - The Moscow Times

Syria’s new government terminated a treaty granting Russia a long-term military presence in the Mediterranean, a deal brokered under ousted leader Bashar al-Assad, Syrian media reported Tuesday.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Syria’s new government terminated a treaty granting Russia a long-term military presence in the Mediterranean, a deal brokered under ousted leader Bashar al-Assad, Syrian media reported Tuesday.

Authorities also said that revenue from the port would “now benefit the Syrian state,” reversing the previous agreement under which Russia received 65% of Tartus’ profits.

I’m confident that will ensure mr Jolani has excellent reviews from his sponsors

 

[barreness]

Syria Terminates Russian Naval Base Deal – Reports - The Moscow Times

Syria’s new government terminated a treaty granting Russia a long-term military presence in the Mediterranean, a deal brokered under ousted leader Bashar al-Assad, Syrian media reported Tuesday.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Syria’s new government terminated a treaty granting Russia a long-term military presence in the Mediterranean, a deal brokered under ousted leader Bashar al-Assad, Syrian media reported Tuesday.

Authorities also said that revenue from the port would “now benefit the Syrian state,” reversing the previous agreement under which Russia received 65% of Tartus’ profits.

Rip the Alawites
Geopolitical win for the US I guess

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyve9prq3qjo
The BBC team found Dalaal seeking refuge alongside thousands of other people in a remote Russian airbase in the country's western coastal region.

A war monitoring group says that more than 1,400 civilians have been killed since 6 March - most of them Alawites - in Latakia and the neighbouring provinces of Tartous, Hama and Homs.