The utensil up that is the east coast energy market

[kranky al]

The discussion started with a comment about First Solar.

First Solar currently claim to operate their recycling plants in a number of countries.
If they take their solar waste from Australia to their plant in Malaysia , that is not outsourcing.
If they are lying i'd suggest that they are risking more legal action from shareholders. ( So they probably aren't ).

Of course if you are a smaller operation, it is likely you'd need to outsource?
Do you recycle your own household waste or outsource?
Do the councils own recycling facilities?
Does a machine shop have scrap metal facilities?
Why is anyone surprised that outsourcing is a big thing?

---------------------------------
World-Class Recycling First Solar has a long-standing leadership position in PV recycling, having voluntarily established the industry’s first global program over a decade ago. It currently operates high-value PV recycling facilities in the United States, Germany, Malaysia and Vietnam that recover approximately 90 percent of the materials in each recycled First Solar module. This not only translates into commonly-used glass, rubber, and plastic products; it creates a regenerative source of CadTel.
--------------------------------

Yeah but they arent giving tonnages of how much they recycle on the panels that arent even end of life yet….

- man who holds renewable to standards so far past fossil fuels and nuclear but likes to present himself as if hes the only one whos reasonable and rational about this.

 

[Power Raid]

Is it that the materials can't be recycled, or because companies are seeking profit?

Or more accurately……people don’t want to pay a price for responsible solar ownership

They want slave labour silica
They want workers to be exposed to carcinogenic chemicals
They want to dump panels into landfill and have carcinogenic chemicals to leach into water ways
They want carcinogenic contaminated silica to be recycled and enter the food industry and homes


Obviously they don’t want this but they aren’t prepared to pay the price, where this is not the reality

 

[CM86]

Or more accurately……people don’t want to pay a price for responsible solar ownership

They want slave labour silica
They want workers to be exposed to carcinogenic chemicals
They want to dump panels into landfill and have carcinogenic chemicals to leach into water ways
They want carcinogenic contaminated silica to be recycled and enter the food industry and homes


Obviously they don’t want this but they aren’t prepared to pay the price, where this is not the reality

That's my point.

So it's not an issue with renewables. It's an issue with 'profiteering'.

So it shouldn't be used as a reason against renewables. Because it's not specific to renewables.

 

[Power Raid]

The discussion started with a comment about First Solar.

First Solar currently claim to operate their recycling plants in a number of countries.
If they take their solar waste from Australia to their plant in Malaysia , that is not outsourcing.
If they are lying i'd suggest that they are risking more legal action from shareholders. ( So they probably aren't ).

Of course if you are a smaller operation, it is likely you'd need to outsource?
Do you recycle your own household waste or outsource?
Do the councils own recycling facilities?
Does a machine shop have scrap metal facilities?
Why is anyone surprised that outsourcing is a big thing?

---------------------------------
World-Class Recycling First Solar has a long-standing leadership position in PV recycling, having voluntarily established the industry’s first global program over a decade ago. It currently operates high-value PV recycling facilities in the United States, Germany, Malaysia and Vietnam that recover approximately 90 percent of the materials in each recycled First Solar module. This not only translates into commonly-used glass, rubber, and plastic products; it creates a regenerative source of CadTel.
--------------------------------

Chopping up materials and placing them in hard stands and or then taking to landfill is not recycling

Their goal is 90% but 2028 but no longer offer a recycling scheme

 

[Power Raid]

The issue isn’t profiteering though

It is customers aren’t responsible owners

It also highlights certain industry participants, like First Solar, mislead and deceive (as proven in court)

Perhaps we have a responsibility to be informed as customers and as an electorate?

 

[CM86]

The issue isn’t profiteering though

It is customers aren’t responsible owners

It also highlights certain industry participants, like First Solar, mislead and deceive (as proven in court)

Perhaps we have a responsibility to be informed as customers and as an electorate?

That's my point.

So it's not an issue with renewables. It's an issue with 'profiteering'.

So it shouldn't be used as a reason against renewables. Because it's not specific to renewables.

 

[Power Raid]

First you're saying SMRs work because they work in Subs, now you're saying they're newer and don't use any water, they're different.

Also that glass and concrete recycling is a farce (when I know for a fact this isn't true)

You're cherry-picking positive stories from nuclear and only showing negative stories from anything else.

I get that this is a forum where the only people who turn up have strong opinions, but geez, this is Fox News-level fact-picking.

The thing about heat energy is that it would be valuable if it were near something, but the thing about nuclear is that it shouldn't be near anything.

I’m just correcting false statements

Further you don’t seem to appreciate SMR have been around for 70 years but then confuse yourself by referring to another technology being Gen 3 1.6GW power stations

They are two very different things

 

[CM86]

I’m just correcting false statements

 

[Power Raid]

This might be true in a very narrow case, but there are actually shortages of recycled glass and concrete at the moment. Many Govt construction projects committed to certain amounts of recycled material, but now everybody is using it, so there are shortages across the eastern seaboard at least.

Road base is our new landfill (I mean recycling)

 

[Power Raid]

I'm not letting you muddy the waters over a few pages with your vague answers and feigned confusion.

You've been caught in a lie, again.





Link to a reliable source that states this?

Not your interpretation of some random data.

You’re not happy with Govt sources and the regulators data?

 

[CM86]

You’re not happy with Govt sources and the regulators data?

String it out for as many pages as you can. Muddy all the water. You still lied.

at the same time a 95% cut in production, from wind in Germany representing 60GW, as the wind isn't blowing

Link to a reliable source that states this?

Not your interpretation of some random data.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Chopping up materials and placing them in hard stands and or then taking to landfill is not recycling

Their goal is 90% but 2028 but no longer offer a recycling scheme

It just seems odd that would be the case given their current claims.

Overview

First Solar has developed, financed, engineered, constructed and currently operates many of the world’s largest grid-connected PV power plants

www.firstsolar.com

( refer to the fact sheet ).

404

First Solar is a leading global provider of comprehensive photovoltaic (PV) solar energy solutions that are truly Taking Energy Forward.

www.firstsolar.com

They do have some fine print.
*Cadmium and tellurium separation and refining are conducted by a third-party. For pre-2013 sales customers, First Solar implements an unconditional prefunded Collection and Recycling Program for end-of-life modules. With the sale of each module, First Solar historically set aside sufficient funds to meet the estimated future collection and recycling costs of its modules. Individual modules are labeled with information for the owner on how to return the end-of-life module.

For pre-2013 sales customers, First Solar implements an unconditional prefunded Collection and Recycling Program for end-of-life modules. With the sale of each module, First Solar historically set aside sufficient funds to meet the estimated future collection and recycling costs of its modules. Individual modules are labeled with information for the owner on how to return the end-of-life module.

 

[Power Raid]

Again you are making an assessment based on a false premise

Thus GIGO

garbage in garbage out

 

[Power Raid]

String it out for as many pages as you can. Muddy all the water. You still lied.


Link to a reliable source that states this?

Not your interpretation of some random data.

Go to the link and press the relevant jurisdictions for detail

There is no interpretation required, just facts


I note your inability to engage in good faith again

 

[CM86]

Go to the link and press the relevant jurisdictions for detail

There is no interpretation required, just facts


I note your inability to engage in good faith again

GIGO

 

[Power Raid]

It just seems odd that would be the case given their current claims.

Overview

First Solar has developed, financed, engineered, constructed and currently operates many of the world’s largest grid-connected PV power plants

www.firstsolar.com

( refer to the fact sheet ).

404

First Solar is a leading global provider of comprehensive photovoltaic (PV) solar energy solutions that are truly Taking Energy Forward.

www.firstsolar.com

They do have some fine print.
*Cadmium and tellurium separation and refining are conducted by a third-party. For pre-2013 sales customers, First Solar implements an unconditional prefunded Collection and Recycling Program for end-of-life modules. With the sale of each module, First Solar historically set aside sufficient funds to meet the estimated future collection and recycling costs of its modules. Individual modules are labeled with information for the owner on how to return the end-of-life module.

For pre-2013 sales customers, First Solar implements an unconditional prefunded Collection and Recycling Program for end-of-life modules. With the sale of each module, First Solar historically set aside sufficient funds to meet the estimated future collection and recycling costs of its modules. Individual modules are labeled with information for the owner on how to return the end-of-life module.

And yet no data on the actual material recycled

Would a solar manufacturer, achieving over and above their peers state “x tons went back into our production process, x% of our panels is recycled material etc etc”

There financial statements are very different to their marketing statements which enjoy weasel words

 

[CM86]

And yet no data on the actual material recycled

Would a solar manufacturer, achieving over and above their peers state “x tons went back into our production process, x% of our panels is recycled material etc etc”

There financial statements are very different to their marketing statements which enjoy weasel words

That's my point.

So it's not an issue with renewables. It's an issue with 'profiteering'.

So it shouldn't be used as a reason against renewables. Because it's not specific to renewables.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

And yet no data on the actual material recycled

Would a solar manufacturer, achieving over and above their peers state “x tons went back into our production process, x% of our panels is recycled material etc etc”

There financial statements are very different to their marketing statements which enjoy weasel words

First Solar’s state-of-the-art recycling facilities are operational in the U.S., Germany and Malaysia, with a scalable capacity to accommodate high volume recycling as more modules reach the end of their 25+ year life. Our proven recycling process achieves high recovery rates; up to 90 percent of the semiconductor material can be reused in new modules and 90 percent of the glass can be reused in new glass products.

 

[Kwality]

Seems things are going to be tight at the Iona gas plant over the next few weeks.

'The latest shortage comes as gas demand is typically three times higher in the Victorian winter than summer. A cold snap and booming LNG exports have limited domestic volumes, while Russian sanctions have deprived global markets of supply and deepened a global energy squeeze.

Iona’s owner, Lochard Energy, said the cold winter and coal breakdowns led to customers draining gas supplies earlier and in larger quantities than usual.'

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/renewable-energy-economy/looming-vic-gas-shortages-may-hit-system-security-aemo/news-story/5e85705cf4e9cd274f99b4b65d4ae541

'The Iona gas storage facility in Victoria is on track to fall to an all-time low of just six petajoules by August 6, with the depletion of inventories leading to the risk of “total system” gas supply shortfalls for the state.'

'The AEMO chief will say gas storage was already rapidly depleting before winter started, with more LNG being exported from Queensland, which meant lower flows to southern states, triggering more gas to flow north to NSW sourced from Victoria’s offshore Bass Strait fields.

A rare cap on Victoria’s gas prices has been in place to calm the market but the move has -provided an incentive to producers to direct supplies to other states further exacerbating the tight market.

“This reduction in Iona supply capacity increases the risk of curtailment during peak demand days and during periods of high gas generation demand,” AEMO told the industry on Monday in a letter asking producers to supply gas to ease the situation.'

 

[kranky al]

Or more accurately……people don’t want to pay a price for responsible solar ownership

They want slave labour silica
They want workers to be exposed to carcinogenic chemicals
They want to dump panels into landfill and have carcinogenic chemicals to leach into water ways
They want carcinogenic contaminated silica to be recycled and enter the food industry and homes


Obviously they don’t want this but they aren’t prepared to pay the price, where this is not the reality

Whereas you advocate nuclear
You want workers to be exposed to radioactive materiel
You want nuclear waste dumped in landfill like happens in italy
You want radioactive material to leach into waterways
Blah blagh blah

Its easy just being against things - and lazy - oh and heres my sources:

The Mob Is Secretly Dumping Nuclear Waste Across Italy and Africa

Organized crime is famously good at exploiting time-sensitive industries like construction, fishing, and—of course—garbage removal. But revelations about millions of tons of toxic waste buried haphazardly and illegally by the mob are causing an uproar in southern Italy, where cancer rates are...

gizmodo.com

Shipwreck may hold radioactive waste sunk by mafia off Italian coast | Italy | The Guardian

Investigator said up to 41 others vessels may have been used to dump toxic and nuclear material on the seabed

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Power Raid]

First Solar’s state-of-the-art recycling facilities are operational in the U.S., Germany and Malaysia, with a scalable capacity to accommodate high volume recycling as more modules reach the end of their 25+ year life. Our proven recycling process achieves high recovery rates; up to 90 percent of the semiconductor material can be reused in new modules and 90 percent of the glass can be reused in new glass products.

Can vs are

 

[Gough]

I don’t know why anyone bothers with people who were climate deniers. As much as they'll now pretend they never were, it's best not to engage with fools.

 

[Power Raid]

Whereas you advocate nuclear
You want workers to be exposed to radioactive materiel
You want nuclear waste dumped in landfill like happens in italy
You want radioactive material to leach into waterways
Blah blagh blah

Its easy just being against things - and lazy - oh and heres my sources:

The Mob Is Secretly Dumping Nuclear Waste Across Italy and Africa

Organized crime is famously good at exploiting time-sensitive industries like construction, fishing, and—of course—garbage removal. But revelations about millions of tons of toxic waste buried haphazardly and illegally by the mob are causing an uproar in southern Italy, where cancer rates are...

gizmodo.com

Shipwreck may hold radioactive waste sunk by mafia off Italian coast | Italy | The Guardian

Investigator said up to 41 others vessels may have been used to dump toxic and nuclear material on the seabed

amp.theguardian.com

Have a think about what you’re posting

 

[Kwality]

I don’t know why anyone bothers with people who were climate deniers. As much as they'll now pretend they never were, it's best not to engage with fools.

Solar panel recycling market to be worth billions by 2030, say researchers

As solar PV waste grows to tens of millions tonnes a year by 2040, researchers say the recycling market will boom – as will demand for recycled components.

reneweconomy.com.au

'In terms of the need for solar PV recycling, current expectations are that solar PV waste will grow to 27 million tonnes each year by 2040.'

As for which countries might be best rewarded by a solar PV recycling sector, China, which is expected to account for 40% of global installations in 2022, could see a recycling sector value of $US3.8 billion by 2037, out of a $US9.6 billion global total, based on a 15-year solar PV panel lifespan.

While representative of China’s dominance, another solar PV powerhouse is India, which will nevertheless trail behind with an estimated $US800 million in recycling value, followed by Japan with $US200 million. Regionally, North America is projected to see the value of recyclable material reach $US1.5 billion by 2037, with Europe seeing $US1.4 billion.'

Dont talk about it eh Gough so you can keep up the pretence that without Russia, without China & INdia, we are ....., pi55ing into a gale.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Solar panel recycling market to be worth billions by 2030, say researchers

As solar PV waste grows to tens of millions tonnes a year by 2040, researchers say the recycling market will boom – as will demand for recycled components.

reneweconomy.com.au

'In terms of the need for solar PV recycling, current expectations are that solar PV waste will grow to 27 million tonnes each year by 2040.'

As for which countries might be best rewarded by a solar PV recycling sector, China, which is expected to account for 40% of global installations in 2022, could see a recycling sector value of $US3.8 billion by 2037, out of a $US9.6 billion global total, based on a 15-year solar PV panel lifespan.

While representative of China’s dominance, another solar PV powerhouse is India, which will nevertheless trail behind with an estimated $US800 million in recycling value, followed by Japan with $US200 million. Regionally, North America is projected to see the value of recyclable material reach $US1.5 billion by 2037, with Europe seeing $US1.4 billion.'

Dont talk about it eh Gough so you can keep up the pretence that without Russia, without China & INdia, we are ....., pi55ing into a gale.

I guess we should just buy solar panels and tesla's and that will fix everything.

Global warming solved, next issue.