Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

[jannissary]

Only about 6 months into uni.

Is teaching really worth it? I love kids (phrasing), love maths, love teaching and seeing people grow and become more confident in their abilities. Is it too idealistic? Everything I hear from people screams don't do it? The missus is in her third year of English major and loved her most recent prac, but I can't help but consider all the horror stories you hear? I've already been invited to multiple schools in the south west to do prac, should the uni's allow organising your own, and have a really good relationship with multiple schools even after graduating myself a few years ago through sports, mentoring and such.

see what your pracs are like before making a decision.

 

[pjcrows]

120k with 12 weeks holiday a year. If you can do it, and separate work from life (like any job I guess) then it's a good gig. The biggest factor is school leadership and your colleagues - again, like any job.

 

[jannissary]

120k with 12 weeks holiday a year. If you can do it, and separate work from life (like any job I guess) then it's a good gig. The biggest factor is school leadership and your colleagues - again, like any job.

depends what state you're in, though. teachers in victoria are paid the least out of any state, and as such have the lowest number of teachers (allgedly)

 

[Gibbke]

Graduated 1993. Aside from a 5 year period from 1996-00 when I moved to Qld and tried to become a self sufficient musician (a conversation in my head I call the "30 Year Plan" that I had when sitting on Burleigh Beach at age 27 nearly destitute can lead to an accurate guess of how all that turned out!), I've been a full time teacher, aside from T4 2024 until now where I've juggled supply teaching and the nightshift at Woolies!

Started at Launceston College, which at the time was 4000 Y11-12 kids crammed into a few city blocks, then moved to Qld and had no intention of teaching ever again. When I finally succumbed, I ended up in:
1) Corinda SHS - a leafy rich suburb bordered by notoriously poor ones, and the guy who wrote The Inbetweeners was inspired by his time at the school...famous punk band The Saints all went there too. Three factions in the school - the white Aussies, the Polys, and Australia's biggest Vietnamese student cohort...I loved them all, but there were always school fights. In a school that has everything going for it (had to listen to the rhetoric about being one of the Big Four every assembly), staff can get complacent and whingy...I recall a staff meeting where everyone argued for 45 minutes about what staff were supposed to wear.
2) Redbank Plains SHS - a low socio-economic area, and there was a newsworthy murder either side of the three years I went there. The area is shit, and when I started the kids were too, not helped by a new principal who would do assembly powerpoint presentations telling everyone they had to act like geese flying in a V...I had a different "get me the f### out of here" job lined up by the first Easter, but when that was cancelled through defunding, I went back - only to then meet the best principal by a street I've ever worked with. By the end of the year, a six and a half foot tall principal had picked the kids up one by one upside down and shaken the bullshit out of them...kids who'd been suspended six times were saying "yeah, it's better"...! At the end of the year I was thinking "I can do this", and after year 3 when I'd left i would have taken the whole school with me. The best bit - the staff were brilliant - you had to be because the environment was so tough. I'd recommend teaching at a "tough" school, if you do your due diligence and the school process is on the ball and positive...there's no time for whiny crap or grandstanding, so you end up working with focused, positive and tough teachers.
3) We only left for family reasons, and wanted to raise our newborn in a better place than Goodna! So we got Tully SHS, and since then have lived at Mission Beach. Idyllic and lazy in the middle of agriculturally minded and quite conservatively backward Katter country. Long story above tells how it all went to shit, but after school (4) I'm back there doing supply. Gotta eat.
4) Good Counsel College. Took my kid who had a great primary life on the beach to high school in a place where she would need a change...Tully isn't very driven, and we wanted our kid working at school. Catholic Ed meant me quitting Ed Qld...first term great, second term cracks, and then T3 showed me what a corrupted bullying culture looks like when you allow outsiders to run the show...bubby's Y7 class was a dream, and while I was being shafted by the school as a teacher, we kept her in there because it was great for her. She's at Cairns SHS now living with her mum, much more arty and musical than what's here amongst the cows, and she knows she has to work and justify it because dad misses his daughter after approving all of this!
5) Back to Tully, doing supply and lobbying for a contract in non-music subjects (what they've done to what I put ten years into, just horrific). Plenty of work, because staff health (unluckily) and staff morale (hmmm) is freeing up plenty of opportunities even now...Innisfail SHS does not hire outside teachers in T4 because the Y12's have left, and yet Tully wants me 5 days a week (my sanity dictates to them 3, because I also have a night shift which I don't want to compromise). Me and the wife have decided in 2027 we'll have moved back home to Tassie, so next year I would like a contract with just a toe in the Woolies door...but that place has otherwise lost me and I just want the money...

So the point, in line with above discussion? There are no real general rules, because people and communities are influenced by many factors and there is no formula. A good principal who cares about staff is crucial - for me, Redbank was superb, Corinda was polarising although I was lucky enough to be on the approved side (to be blunt, I worked and didn't whinge like a soft****, which was the driving force behind a bunch of comfortable 50-60yo's quitting in a huff as they were forced into the 21st century when a new principal arrived...who is still there 19 years later), Tully was again lazy (a retiring principal in 2014 who openly told me she didn't care anymore was replaced by "everyone's mate" principal, who not only was easily manipulated by the STEM nazis (!), but also thought because he played clarinet in a local big band that he knew more about music education than me (not like I could really start an argument when it's the f###ing principal either!)...Tully's admin also prioritises admin promotion over teaching and learning too, a definite red flag everyone here should be wary of. Good Counsel had factions with power who weren't teachers, and even the principal, who threw me under a bus to keep them happy, ran scared...in 10 years, they've had five principals and she was the only one who wasn't sacked because she retired first...

Now, back at Tully there's a new principal who fully embraces two causes that are a huge double edged sword for teaching - staff wellbeing and ICT's!
1) Wellbeing - these people led by her take the directives of head office in Brisbane and execute them to the letter...written by suits in aircon in Collins Street, staff have to take mandatory activities and fill in all of the other career goals bullshit a proper teacher follows, because we're all only in it for career advancement and promotion, right? The DP who I unloaded on three years ago in previous story, where my music classes were replaced with dregs English and History (fellow teachers are still reminding me how much they hated getting a supervision with those kids if I was away!) to enable someone else's irrelevant promotion, was genuinely surprised when I told her I had no plans to be a HOD or a DP anymore (I did once) because I wanted to teach my subject, my awesome subject that is my life and I care about more than anything else. Staff Wellbeing is important, but if it's not done for the staff and is done because head office says you have to do a programme, than it becomes a polarising crock of shit - I could do a 30 min PD with the current admin as living proof of what to do and not do, walk the walk as well as talk, when handling staff. They had a guy completely capable and dedicated, f###ed that up, and now I can't even walk past my old music room because of the sheer ambivalence it's been subjected to ever since.
2) The other thing, ICT's, are an insidious beast that is making our kids dumber. Computers are there only to print up pretty good copies and enable a focused Google Search - that is the only function that should be allowed in the class, and even then, I'm totally happy to struggle through bad handwriting on a good copy knowing I'm seeing a kid's unfiltered work, and we still have libraries and textbooks, the only things available to my generation as we ended up ultimately smarter than where most of our kids will end up anyway. You learn the ICT's you need when you get to where you need them - they don't need to be intrinsic. If I get a contract next year, not just ad hoc supply lessons, every kid has an exercise book, and laptops go on the shelf by the door, doesn't matter what subject. This is a huge debate for another place, but education doesn't know how to handle human advancement of this nature...!

Most of what's above reads like an attack on management! But management needs to be supported by teachers, who themselves need to take a good hard look and ensure they're playing for the team and even more importantly the kids, works both ways...and then there's the most underrated part of education - parents. So for what it's worth, from someone who's been around a bit:
1) Analyse your principal and admin team's attitude - if Teaching and Learning is their mantra, they need to say it out loud. If they don't, the school has a problem.
2) Teach your kids and show them their education matters. A kid told me only yesterday that last period on Friday's is usually a bludge lesson with their regular teacher - I wrestled with them for the last hour of the week and made them work, at least as successfully as their resistance would allow! Your weekend starts at that exact point on your timetable, not before, and right now you have nowhere better to be than working on your education, which is also on your timetable.
3) Parents. Email list is the first thing you compile the second you get the class list, and you keep pumping out the emails. You ring home when the kid f###s up, and make it intrinsic to your routine...3 o'clock every possible day should be "who am I ringing?". And - make good calls too. Kid was awesome today - personal email saying "Johnny smashed the test today" or "Really happy with her manners"...just roll them out, and make sure the no-name kids get called out too.
4) Get them off the f###ing computers.
5) This could be the most important, because it's easy to blame others even when it really is their fault, let alone denial on your part - make sure you're being a good teacher. Learn the craft.

 

[Gibbke]

Only about 6 months into uni.

Is teaching really worth it? I love kids (phrasing), love maths, love teaching and seeing people grow and become more confident in their abilities. Is it too idealistic? Everything I hear from people screams don't do it? The missus is in her third year of English major and loved her most recent prac, but I can't help but consider all the horror stories you hear? I've already been invited to multiple schools in the south west to do prac, should the uni's allow organising your own, and have a really good relationship with multiple schools even after graduating myself a few years ago through sports, mentoring and such.

Your first sentence after the question is the only one which matters. You are no good to anyone in this profession unless that's your aim and drive. You'll know every January - if you have that day in the holidays when work mode in your brain suddenly switches on and you're planning the year ahead, not only has your holiday just ended (dammit!), but you know you're hooked. Yeah, give it a few months and it's a grind, but that positive energy at the start having forgotten last year's hardships is an indicator that you don't need to retire yet, and that you might just have something to offer...

I've said to kids in the past "Are your teachers smart?" After the usual derogatory jokes, the kids will admit they are, they have to be. The discussion then centres around being paid more for your brain than your brawn, and these days I can use my Woolies example, where I'm paid as much in a casual week there as I am in a single day with the kids. There are other "smart" jobs that pay heaps more, that teachers could walk into. So then I ask "why do you think your teachers are here then with you, if they could do better somewhere else?"...

Sometimes the penny drops...

 

[Forward Press]

The recent activity in this thread, and a Facebook memory popping up today reminding me that I won permanency on this day four years ago, prompted a bit of reflection, so here goes...

txbyhull, I know you're a young fellow so I advise caution before diving into teaching. Try something else. I have a few colleagues that have gone straight from a Bachelor of Education into teaching and I think they could have benefited from maybe doing something else first to gain experience in other sectors. The greater separation in age between you and the students you teach, the better in establishing authority in my view - a fellow teacher once got mistaken for a student by a colleague. She struggles sometimes with classroom management and this is something that I found is common with a lot of similar teachers that are still in their early to mid 20s where they are not perceived as part of the general teaching staff by the older students.

They are also the most likely to burn out as they invest their lives into planning, marking, parent contacts etc. All too often the next day they complain about having to stay up to mark papers or send emails to parents last night well past their bedtime, when that extra effort barely shifts the needle in terms of student achievement or engagement. Not saying it's you, but a lot of younger teachers also perceive being a friend of the student as crucial in classroom management. That's a big mistake - you are friendly, but not their friend. You call them out on doing the wrong thing, you impose consequences, and you model correct behaviour. You're effectively their parent and - depending on their home life - maybe even the closest thing they have to an adult role model.

It's now been a decade and I found I last longer and reduce the stress, anxiety and burnout by treating it as a job. I clock in, I clock out. I do the overtime at home when needed during assessment and reporting season, but not merely because I want my lessons tomorrow to be a little bit better or to clear my desk of marking one day sooner than if I just did the whole thing at work. I am lucky I admit - I now work at a top public school in a leafy part of Perth with permanency, so I can push back on expectations of unnecessary additional workloads, and sacrificing weeknights and weekends. If you do take the plunge into teaching, remember that you are replaceable (so don't give everything to the school).

I am still passionate about the job, wouldn't change it for the world to be honest, but it is not the be all and end all. Because if you do make it your entire life, you will burn out. Guaranteed. And - of course - don't do this because of the money. Yeah, it's pretty decent especially if you make it past the few years, but there is a reason why it's often difficult to attract new teachers even with generous salaries and incentives. Don't waste your time (and money) if you hate kids but figure this could be an easy paycheque. You will get found out.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Here's to another ten years in the job.

 

[Gibbke]

The recent activity in this thread, and a Facebook memory popping up today reminding me that I won permanency on this day four years ago, prompted a bit of reflection, so here goes...

txbyhull, I know you're a young fellow so I advise caution before diving into teaching. Try something else. I have a few colleagues that have gone straight from a Bachelor of Education into teaching and I think they could have benefited from maybe doing something else first to gain experience in other sectors. The greater separation in age between you and the students you teach, the better in establishing authority in my view - a fellow teacher once got mistaken for a student by a colleague. She struggles sometimes with classroom management and this is something that I found is common with a lot of similar teachers that are still in their early to mid 20s where they are not perceived as part of the general teaching staff by the older students.

They are also the most likely to burn out as they invest their lives into planning, marking, parent contacts etc. All too often the next day they complain about having to stay up to mark papers or send emails to parents last night well past their bedtime, when that extra effort barely shifts the needle in terms of student achievement or engagement. Not saying it's you, but a lot of younger teachers also perceive being a friend of the student as crucial in classroom management. That's a big mistake - you are friendly, but not their friend. You call them out on doing the wrong thing, you impose consequences, and you model correct behaviour. You're effectively their parent and - depending on their home life - maybe even the closest thing they have to an adult role model.

It's now been a decade and I found I last longer and reduce the stress, anxiety and burnout by treating it as a job. I clock in, I clock out. I do the overtime at home when needed during assessment and reporting season, but not merely because I want my lessons tomorrow to be a little bit better or to clear my desk of marking one day sooner than if I just did the whole thing at work. I am lucky I admit - I now work at a top public school in a leafy part of Perth with permanency, so I can push back on expectations of unnecessary additional workloads, and sacrificing weeknights and weekends. If you do take the plunge into teaching, remember that you are replaceable (so don't give everything to the school).

I am still passionate about the job, wouldn't change it for the world to be honest, but it is not the be all and end all. Because if you do make it your entire life, you will burn out. Guaranteed. And - of course - don't do this because of the money. Yeah, it's pretty decent especially if you make it past the few years, but there is a reason why it's often difficult to attract new teachers even with generous salaries and incentives. Don't waste your time (and money) if you hate kids but figure this could be an easy paycheque. You will get found out.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Here's to another ten years in the job.

This. Said the same thing to younger people wanting to enter the profession who say "I'll be a cool teacher" or "If a kid speaks back to me in class, I'll rip his f###ing head off"...you just be a teacher. It's not rocket science - not only is there a lengthy set of job description standards and techniques which look the same everywhere, but you're dealing with a life form whose very existence revolves around testing boundaries, so those boundaries need to be ones that make them say "uh-huh, story checks out like all the rest"...

Never smile until Easter...!

 

[Jack Richards]

My passion for teaching has been shattered. Looking out.

 

[Sketi]

Never smile until Easter...!

I used to think this sounded like a dated philosophy when I first started, but more and more looking like a useful strategy. Every year I am learning to be a little bit stricter.

Do you guys seriously try not to smile for term 1 though?

 

[Forward Press]

I used to think this sounded like a dated philosophy when I first started, but more and more looking like a useful strategy. Every year I am learning to be a little bit stricter.

Do you guys seriously try not to smile for term 1 though?

It works for some. Personally, I just set strict rules at the start then ease them as I see fit, but I don't refrain from smiling.

Similar with seating plans - some teachers have all their classes on them, I rarely do, and even then it's used as a consequence of not meeting classroom expectations ie being disrespectful shits. People classroom manage in different ways, none of them are bad or suboptimal.

My passion for teaching has been shattered. Looking out.

I think we've all given you advice to varying degrees but one thing we possibly all agree on is to quit if you no longer feel the passion, for the benefit of you, the kids, your family and friends. Best of luck mate.

 

[Roylion]

Do you guys seriously try not to smile for term 1 though?

For a new class … definitely.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Are we talking primary or secondary?

 

[Sketi]

Are we talking primary or secondary?

Secondary for sure.

 

[Gibbke]

Secondary, but primary is now a thing for me, incidentally...

The principal of El Arish, a tiny primary school here on the Cassowary Coat made up of a single junior P-2 and a single senior 3-6 class, 30 kids in the entire school, has hired me to do one day a week as - get this - Jack Black. He has literally said he wants a School Of Rock programme...!

So this year, my weeks will be one day here, filling up the rest of the week as a supply teacher at Tully and hopefully at the Innisfail Diverse Learning Centre, and several shifts with Proactive Services at Mission Beach Woolies, pushing trolleys during cyclones...

You're not hardcore unless you live hardcore...

 

[raskolnikov]

Question for Victorian teachers.

If a job vacancy is advertised as ongoing does this mean that it is basically already filled by an incumbent and that the advertisement is for protocol only? Is it worth someone who is not at the school already applying for that job?

 

[jannissary]

Question for Victorian teachers.

If a job vacancy is advertised as ongoing does this mean that it is basically already filled by an incumbent and that the advertisement is for protocol only? Is it worth someone who is not at the school already applying for that job?

believe it's a continued contract

 

[raskolnikov]

believe it's a continued contract

Thanks. So wasting my time applying.

 

[jannissary]

Thanks. So wasting my time applying.

oh, no i'd still apply, i meant the position isn't a temporary one, it'd be a continued contract

 

[bUCKET__]

Thanks. So wasting my time applying.

Depending on where exactly the school is, it might mean you're more likely to get the job as an external applicant. E.g hard to staff areas outside of the inner suburbs

I've heard of schools advertising ongoing or leadership roles after short term vacancies went unfilled, in a teacher shortage you sometimes have to think outside the box to entice new staff. Good internal staff passed over on promotion when equally good external applicant came up, etc

If there are short term contact staff eligible to be translated to ongoing, the school is obliged to make them ongoing (they can't even advertise the role in this case). Doesn't mean there aren't also cases where a school might want to lock in a great teacher who's only been at the school for less than a year and isn't yet eligible to be translated to ongoing. But wouldn't say it's usual, and ongoing roles are in theory less likely to have incumbents due to the translation to ongoing process.

It's worth trying to have a phone chat with school's contact listed on the ad; ask what the need is, why the job is being advertised at this time of year etc. obviously they won't tell you about other applicants but you can infer a lot with good questions too.

 

[Senor M]

Question for Victorian teachers.

If a job vacancy is advertised as ongoing does this mean that it is basically already filled by an incumbent and that the advertisement is for protocol only? Is it worth someone who is not at the school already applying for that job?

If the job vacancy is advertised as ongoing, it will be a vacant position. An incumbent can be converted from a contract to ongoing without having to reapply for their job in Victoria.

The only exception to that would be Senior Leadership roles (Leading Teacher & Learning Specialist) that are often 4 year terms separate from a teaching contract

 

[raskolnikov]

I don't think the teacher shortage is as bad as it's made out to be.

Five applications through the Vic Careers website and not a single response.

My theory is that schools are not willing to employ an experienced teacher as it costs them too much.

 

[raskolnikov]

Got an offer today.

 

[Sketi]

Got an offer today.

Grats!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Got an offer today.

I thought you retired.

 

[raskolnikov]

I thought you retired.

Semi-retired.