MVP Tommy Boyd - The Grand Final Enigma

[TiAn_]

The marking technique is ordinary and I can’t believe it’s still an issue.

I’m happy with every other part of his game.

The rules coming in next year will be interesting for Boyd and Schache. Similar to the environment they both dominated in at U18 level.

 

[BRWB]

Hmmmm I actually thought he battled really well Friday and was one of his better efforts.

He will never be defined by his stats as he simply will never be a huge stat gatherer no matter where he plays.

And to say apart from his GF he hasn’t played an excellent game is blatantly wrong. Without His 2016 prelim effort we don’t have that flag

M8 I get the feeling people have set the bar so low on Boyd that breaking even is seen as an excellent game. Prelim he only broke even. At best on Fri night he only broke even at best (read the Cat board and their fans who were pleased with Stanleys game)

In 59 games, there has been just the one where he was truly excellent and actually took the game by the throat and dominated ((IMO he should have a Norm Smith medal). The GF is a massive outlier IMO.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

M8 I get the feeling people have set the bar so low on Boyd that breaking even is seen as an excellent game. Prelim he only broke even. At best on Fri night he only broke even at best (read the Cat board and their fans who were pleased with Stanleys game)

In 59 games, there has been just the one where he was truly excellent and actually took the game by the throat and dominated ((IMO he should have a Norm Smith medal). The GF is a massive outlier IMO.

Aren't you just at the complete opposite side though? How many players playing his position completely dominated and took a big game by the scruff of the neck with less than 50 games experience? Despite being Better, Grundy never did, nor Gawn, I don't even recall Cox doing it. Yes, better across their 50 games but none did what he has done at the same stage.

The reality probably lies somewhere in the middle of both ends.

 

[footyfan000001]

I reckon he’d clunk more down forward if he isn’t gassed from rucking most of the game. Sometimes he misses marks he should take, but people also lose sight of the fact he’s so big that the defenders/s are scragging him towards an inch of entering him. If he can’t get his arms free or free early enough to be in a comfortable position, it makes it harder to mark the ball

He’ll get more forward time once English is ready!

 

[BRWB]

Aren't you just at the complete opposite side though? How many players playing his position completely dominated and took a big game by the scruff of the neck with less than 50 games experience? Despite being Better, Grundy never did, nor Gawn, I don't even recall Cox doing it. Yes, better across their 50 games but none did what he has done at the same stage.

The reality probably lies somewhere in the middle of both ends.

I was simply responding to comments that Boyd has been excellent in multiple games. He hasn't.

I honestly dont recall the early careers of Cox, Gawn and Grundy.

Look there is a chance Boyd becomes a decent follower where he actually clearly beats his opponent regularly - not at our club though IMO. Really dont see him getting more than 30% ruck time when English is fit from as early as next year. And a guy Boyds size and pace who cant mark is a liability fwd. Unless he miraculously fixes his shocking marking he can't play fwd either.

Seriously should be looking to move him on if his marking doesn't/can't improve.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

I was simply responding to comments that Boyd has been excellent in multiple games. He hasn't.

I honestly dont recall the early careers of Cox, Gawn and Grundy.

Look there is a chance Boyd becomes a decent follower where he actually clearly beats his opponent regularly - not at our club though IMO. Really dont see him getting more than 30% ruck time when English is fit from as early as next year. And a guy Boyds size and pace who cant mark is a liability fwd. Unless he miraculously fixes his shocking marking he can't play fwd either.

Seriously should be looking to move him on if his marking doesn't/can't improve.

There's a reason you can't remember their early career.

 

[BRWB]

There's a reason you can't remember their early career.

Ok m8 just for shits and giggles. Max Gawn had played 39 games at the start of 2016 (his first full season). He was AA that yr. So Gawn was AA having played about the same amount of games that Boyd has.

Grundy was selected.in the U22 AA team twice by the time he was Boyds age...

How do you like them apples?

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Ok m8 just for shits and giggles. Max Gawn had played 39 games at the start of 2016 (his first full season). He was AA that yr. So Gawn was AA having played about the same amount of games that Boyd has.

How do you like them apples?

Age and games was what I said initially. I could be wrong but wasn't Gawn already 23-24?

I should also point out I said they were better at the same stage... I was contesting their dominance over a single game - a big one at that.

 

[BRWB]

Age and games was what I said. I could be wrong but wasn't Gawn already 23-24?

Yeah poor old Maxy had multiple knee recos if I recall correctly...assume if it was Boyd with multiple knees that would be seen as a disadvantage?

Anyway for age see Grundy point. Maybe pick someone else more at Boyds level...like Tom Hickey....

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Yeah poor old Maxy hasd multiple knee recos if I recall correctly...assume if it wws Boyd multiple knees would be seen as a disadvantage?

Anyway for age see Grundy point. Maybe pick someone else more at Boyds level...like Tom Hickey....

You've missed my point completely. I agreed they were better at the same stage.

 

[Mofra]

I reckon he’d clunk more down forward if he isn’t gassed from rucking most of the game.

Boyd's mentioned this in interviews.

His best mark this year (over Aliir Aliir vs the Swans) was taken shortly after halftime when he wasn't fatigued.

 

[BRWB]

You've missed my point completely. I agreed they were better at the same stage.

No. You have missed mine. You dont get picked as a AA rep without dominating multiple games. Even a U22 AA. Grundy was smashing games at a year younger than Boyd. Gawn was doing it with a season worth less of games experience and coming off multiple knee recos.

It was a poor comparison because Grundy and Gawn have clearly dominated games and their opponent at an earlier age or games played than Boyd.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

No. You have missed mine. You dont get picked as a AA rep without dominating multiple games. Even a U22 AA. Grundy was smashing games at a year younger than Boyd. Gawn was doing it with a season worth less of games experience and coming off multiple knee recos.

It was a poor comparison because Grundy and Gawn have clearly dominated games and their opponent at an earlier age or games played than Boyd.

You can be a very good player without dominating games, but you know a lot about this domination despite not remembering anything about their early careers 15 minutes ago.

I love Grundy and have followed him closely. He was a very, very good, promising ruckman. He didn't dominate a game the way Boyd did in the Grand Final despite being much better at an earlier age.

 

[Mofra]

Long term I see Boyd becoming the #2 ruck, while also playing large minutes forward. In our current set up he would take Naughtons place (with him taking Trengoves spot back), and line up with Schache playing as a link up tall (ala Adelaides Tom Lynch), and Cordy as a combative presence down there. I think he'd be good for 30-40 goals a year after 2 years in that position, which would just about make him the best in the league at it. Furthermore, after all this time playing as the #1 ruck, he should absolutely wipe the floor with most oppositions relief ruck.

I agree with a lot of what you've said but I still like Cordy down back - can play tall or mid sized, and is super aggressive so we have a natural Morris replacement.

Two talls and a mid sizer or two is a sweet mix for a F50, and with an English/Boyd combo 30/70, Schache as the higher forward, Gowers playing a bit of time there and a dedicated smaller link forward/pressure forward (Daniel/Dale/Shai Bolton) - that gives us two free spots for resting mids and/or whoever we pick up in the draft if it's a mid sizer like Hately or RCD where they play forward while they develop the tank for midfield.

I like Boyd forward - he draws a crowd for our smalls to feed off.

 

[BRWB]

You can be a very good player without dominating games, but you know a lot about this domination despite not remembering anything about their early careers 15 minutes ago.

I love Grundy and have followed him closely. He was a very, very good, promising ruckman. He didn't dominate a game the way Boyd did in the Grand Final despite being much better at an earlier age.

Mate i havent watched them play as much as you maybe five to ten games a yr, but anyone can look up Google and see Grundy had multiple three brownlow vote games in 2016 (at same age Boyd is now).

Not sure why you picked those guys anyway. They are clearly superior to Boyd. And agree to disagree you dont get AA selected without dominating mutiple games. And yeah I can say that without having studied their every move.

Boyd has had one dominant game and less than ten where he has roughly broken even, the rest have been largely shite. Unless he turns it around the GF and his contract loom as anomalies in an otherwise unremarkable career.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Mate i havent watched them play as much as you maybe five to ten games a yr, but anyone can look up Google and see Grundy had multiple three brownlow vote games in 2016 (at same age Boyd is now).

Not sure why you picked those guys anyway. They are clearly superior to Boyd. And agree to disagree you dont get AA selected without dominating mutiple games. And yeah I can say that without having studied their every move.

Boyd has had one dominant game and less than ten where he has roughly broken even, the rest have been largely shite. Unless he turns it around the GF and his contract loom as anomalies in an otherwise unremarkable career.

I picked them because they are clearly better and he's shown in a glimpse that he can play to an extremely high standard.

Agree to disagree, I think he's going to be okay and is on an upward trajectory despite obvious external and internal pressures.

 

[BRWB]

I picked them because they are clearly better and he's shown in a glimpse that he can play to an extremely high standard.

Agree to disagree, I think he's going to be okay and is on an upward trajectory despite obvious external and internal pressures.

Dont get me wrong, not having a go at you or Boyd, see him trying hard but just see English being far better in the 70% ruck/follower role as early as next yr, and dont see any improvement whatsoever in his marking at all, making playing him as a predominant fwd/ruck plainly impossible.

With no marking improvement, seriously would look to shift him to Carlton as early as at the end of this yr. Money could be far better spent elsewhere. With English's rapid development he looms as a backup follower destined to play a lot of VFL at our club unless he learns to mark as a fwd.

12 contested marks in his last 20 games post GF says that isnt happening. if anything, from a marking perspective I see only a downward trajectory.

As you say agree to disagree.

 

[cecil]

Dont get me wrong, not having a go at you or Boyd, see him trying hard but just see English being far better in the 70% ruck/follower role as early as next yr, and dont see any improvement whatsoever in his marking at all, making playing him as a predominant fwd/ruck plainly impossible.

With no marking improvement, seriously would look to shift him to Carlton as early as at the end of this yr. Money could be far better spent elsewhere. With English's rapid development he looms as a backup follower destined to play a lot of VFL at our club unless he learns to mark as a fwd.

12 contested marks in his last 20 games post GF says that isnt happening. if anything, from a marking perspective I see only a downward trajectory.

As you say agree to disagree.

For arguments sake what would you see as a good game for a second ruck/forward? A couple of goals?

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Dont get me wrong, not having a go at you or Boyd, see him trying hard but just see English being far better in the 70% ruck/follower role as early as next yr, and dont see any improvement whatsoever in his marking at all, making playing him as a predominant fwd/ruck plainly impossible.

With no marking improvement, seriously would look to shift him to Carlton as early as at the end of this yr. Money could be far better spent elsewhere. With English's rapid development he looms as a backup follower destined to play a lot of VFL at our club unless he learns to mark as a fwd.

12 contested marks in his last 20 games post GF says that isnt happening. if anything, from a marking perspective I see only a downward trajectory.

As you say agree to disagree.

Don't see it as you having a go. Just differing opinions. I think you're wrong but can see the frustrations.

 

[BRWB]

For arguments sake what would you see as a good game for a second ruck/forward? A couple of goals?

That is a steep target for a fwd/ruck.

Its more about marks per game for a fwd/ruck for mine. Ottens averaged nearly 6 a game in 07. Hale was over 4 in 13 with stuff all ball directed to him. Boyd is at 2.7 while getting less hitouts than them. And it isn't his youth, Hale was 5.5 marks a game at a similar age, more than double Boyd

If he isnt playing predominant ruck/follower (and English means he won't ), his lack of pace means he simply has to be marking the ball to be of value and not a liability. This is even more the case in modern pressure footy. He simply doesn't mark it enough. Not even close for a fwd who would be essentially mark and kick.

And you don't need stats, pretty much anyone who watches Boyd agree he struggles to mark it. I just can't see him being successful as a fwd ruck unless his marking dramatically improves.

 

[cecil]

That is a steep target for a fwd/ruck.

Its more about marks per game for a fwd/ruck for mine. Ottens averaged nearly 6 a game in 07. Hale was over 4 in 13 with stuff all ball directed to him. Boyd is at 2.7 while getting less hitouts than them. And it isn't his youth, Hale was 5.5 marks a game at a similar age, more than double Boyd

If he isnt playing predominant ruck/follower (and English means he won't ), his lack of pace means he simply has to be marking the ball to be of value and not a liability. This is even more the case in modern pressure footy. He simply doesn't mark it enough. Not even close for a fwd who would be essentially mark and kick.

And you don't need stats, pretty much anyone who watches Boyd agree he struggles to mark it. I just can't see him being successful as a fwd ruck unless his marking dramatically improves.

His marking definitely isn't a strength obviously, but I would suggest marks inside 50 for talls are very much down from the days of Ottens and Hale too. I was more thinking of your assertion that he'd only played one good game/broke even in some others.

While playing as a second ruck/forward Boyd has had the following games:
2016:
3 goals vs St Kilda
3 goals and 18 touches vs Geelong
3 goals in the Grand Final

2017:
2 goals and 20 touches vs Geelong (rucking alone with Cloke)
2 goals vs Sydney

2018:
2 goals vs Freo

Then in 2015 as a 19/20yo forward:
3 goals vs Hawthorn
4 goals vs Brisbane
a handful of two goals games that are solid for his age too

You said yourself a couple of goals a game would be a steep target, but he has actually hit that a fair bit already while only 20-21. That's why I (and a lot of others) see him as that competent 2nd ruck/30-40 goal a year forward. I think we would be absolutely insane to trade him.

 

[BRWB]

His marking definitely isn't a strength obviously, but I would suggest marks inside 50 for talls are very much down from the days of Ottens and Hale too. I was more thinking of your assertion that he'd only played one good game/broke even in some others.

While playing as a second ruck/forward Boyd has had the following games:
2016:
3 goals vs St Kilda
3 goals and 18 touches vs Geelong
3 goals in the Grand Final

2017:
2 goals and 20 touches vs Geelong (rucking alone with Cloke)
2 goals vs Sydney

2018:
2 goals vs Freo

Then in 2015 as a 19/20yo forward:
3 goals vs Hawthorn
4 goals vs Brisbane
a handful of two goals games that are solid for his age too

You said yourself a couple of goals a game would be a steep target, but he has actually hit that a fair bit already while only 20-21. That's why I (and a lot of others) see him as that competent 2nd ruck/30-40 goal a year forward. I think we would be absolutely insane to trade him.

I meant that 2 goals a game is steep on average. Sure there will be games here and there where that average is exceeded.

But as a ruck its not.just.what you do but what you allow your opponent to do.

Not going through them all but IIRC a very mediocre player in Stanley kicked 5 goals as a ruck in 2016 in one of the games you mention Boyd played well. Sandi was nearly Bog in 18...

I stand by the view that GF aside, Boyd has done little more than broken even in less than ten games. One game he has clearly won his position in 59. And what a game.

In any case we are looking at him as a ruck in many of those games. It is commonly accepted that along with geelong that we have the worst ruck division in the league. Boyd is a major part of that. So he isnt exactly going ganbusters as a ruck. And that is why English who already has better numbers after a mere handful of games will replace him as the main ruck sooner rather than later

I am projecting.Boyd as a predominant fwd who plays maybe 20-30% ruck. Unless he can mark it he will be a liability as a fwd. No question about this in my mind.

Far from insane to move out a $750k a yr player who is a projected liability. Just IMO.

And for some context Kennedy was grabbing 6 marks a game in his 3rd year and Hawkins topped 5 marks in his second year. Boyd is averaging 2.7 marks a game in his fifth yr...it is terrible.

 

[Mattdougie]

M8 I get the feeling people have set the bar so low on Boyd that breaking even is seen as an excellent game. Prelim he only broke even. At best on Fri night he only broke even at best (read the Cat board and their fans who were pleased with Stanleys game)

In 59 games, there has been just the one where he was truly excellent and actually took the game by the throat and dominated ((IMO he should have a Norm Smith medal). The GF is a massive outlier IMO.

No I’m setting the bar for a bloke that isn’t a ruckman and even you admit at worst “broke even” with Mumford who was dominating at that stage.

That makes the effort even better imo. I’ve alway said he isn’t a ruckman by his effort thy might was so under rated it’s criminal. He doesn’t step up to “break even” we don’t win 2016 it’s that simple.

Apart from that I agree he has been average at best but I still feel for the guy being made to play a position he doesn’t want to and isn’t a natural at

 

[yebiga]

It is definitely something in his head.

He only needs to take those mandatory mask where luck or circumstances have him in the right position. Yet too often he gets two hands on the pill but fails to clutch it.

Others have observed and I concur - his hands when going for an over head mark are too flat - the thumbs are not behind the flight of the ball.

Subsequently the fall either goes thru his hands or the ball taps forward and requires a second grab. By which stage if there is any body contact it’s a lottery whether he gets the second go.

This says to me it’s confidence - or lack of. Or no one at the club is looking at his technique.

The correct technique is spread fingers out wide with palms at 45 degrees to give a you margin of era - thumbs virtually joined to prevent the ball passing thru them. As the ball passes your finger you soften hands - as the ball hits thumbs the fingers should naturally cradle the ball.

 

[maddog37]

I’m really enjoying watching Tom become a ruckman that plays as a follower. The improvements in him are his impact on ground ball contests and shepherding for the mids. He has great foot skills, good hands and is slowly getting fit enough to be an AFL player.

Gonna be a player like Grundy in a year or so if he continues on this path.