Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 8 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[_Mike_]

Opposition supporters coming to troll , you have been warned

 

[geoffjennings79]

Busslinger is like Horst Buchholz's "Chico" character in the original (1960) "The Magnificent Seven". He'll be fine...

 

[dogwatch]

He was there.

Best (and fairest) man?

 

[St 07]

Didn't Easton Wood

10

Easton Wood

Age

36

Ht

187cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.0

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.1

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

217.0

3star

D

11.2

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.2

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.2

2star

MG

154.0

3star

D

12.8

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.8

4star

have recurring shoulder injuries very very early in his career

 

[BallaratBulldog]

Didn't Easton Wood have recurring shoulder injuries very very early in his career

Yeah around 2007/8 then a few hamstrings issues around 2010

 

[threenewpadlocks]

A geriatric, semi retired Goldstein held his own against English not too long ago. He's the 'best option' and has been because we haven't had any other options outside of Steff Martin and Sweet (who Bevo didn't give a fair go).
Let's apply the same logic to Buss. The only other option we have for the 3rd tall defender is/was Gardener and a cooked Jones.
So let's give him a go like we have English/Gardener/McNeil/VDM/McComb etc,etc, before we write him off.

At risk of making this a "shitfight",

I'm going to make this strictly about footy:

I went through 2025 stats so you can see them below:

Spoiler: Spoiler: click drop down to see English stat rankings

Among all rucks (ie the Champion Data definition of players whose players primary position was ruck) with 10+ games played, which is 23 total players English was:

Rank 9 in Player Ratings Points
Rank 9 in total coaches votes
Rank 4 in raw disposals average
Rank 2 in metres gained
Rank 5 in "threat rating" and rank 6 in "retention rating", a couple of stats comprised that can be seen on Wheelostats that relate to quality of kicking better than kicking efficiency
Rank 12 for contested possessions
Rank 1 for uncontested possessions
Rank 3 for intercept possessions
Rank 2 for total centre bounce clearances, rank 7 for centre clearance rate per centre clearance attended
Rank 8 for contested marks
Rank 1 for marks inside 50
Rank 23 (dead last) for one-on-one win percentage
Rank 1 for shots on goal - equal first with Luke Jackson who is classified as a ruck but obviously played far more in the forward line
Rank 14 for pressure acts
Rank 3 for free kicks differential (frees for one minus frees for against)
Rank 7 for ruck contest attendances % attended of the games they did play (I'm including this because obviously it's a physical position and if a player was able to rest or rotate, we should in theory expect their capability to be more physical in the ruck itself if they're doing it less often). Rank 5 for total ruck contests attended. Availability is ability and "ranking" is not so much the point here rather that he was part of a select group of only about 10 rucks who managed to keep themselves fit for the entire year while attending 75+% ruck contests, while 13+ other rucks didn't.
Rank 19 hitout win rate
Rank 8 proportions of hitouts that were to advantage
Rank 15 proportion of ruck contests attended that led to a hitout to advantage
Rank 15 Ruck Hard Ball Gets ("take it out of the ruck")

Opposition stats (though we can't calculate only the ruck contests that English attended specifically, he did attend the majority, lets look at team stats but keep in mind that this includes league wide 2nd rucks so it's a bit of a messy stats)

Of 18 ranks
Opponents hitout to hitout to advantage rate rank 5 (5 being good ie fewer hitouts than below average)
However, opponents win hitouts rank 15 of the time
Rank 13 hitout to advantage differential
Rank 17 team ruck hard ball get wins
Rank 11 for opposition ruck supercoach score above average (at 1.69 points per average it's basically zero). English himself is rank 5. Given that supercoach incorporates the opposition hitouts/hard ball gets, it means that opposition rucks get below their season average stats in non-ruck situations when comping up against English, which tracks with the fact that English is above average in this area - e.g. every contested mark that English takes is somewhat correlated to being in a contest with the opposition ruck, a mark that they fail to take etc. etc.)

None of this is mentioning English' holistic contribution to the stoppage, ie the Dogs being rank 1 score from stoppages differential team by a huge margin, 17.5 more points in scoring chains from stoppages than the opposition, a mile above the rank 2 team of Geelong of 9.9. We can have a philosophical debate about how much is contributed by English vs. could this have been even higher with a better ruck but I would argue that hitout stats and ruck hardball get stats etc. only matter in the context that it eventually leads to scores out of the stoppage, which English clearly has an overall participation in essentially three quarters of all the stoppages we had in the season that led to that differential.

In fairness I also get that these season average stats are always going to look good by virtue of the fact that we had the 3rd best percentage, even though we weren't the 3rd best team. So the stats are the sub-part of an overall stats totality that leads us to the various stats that also have us rank 2, rank 3, rank 4 or whatever. English janked up his stats running up the margin against non-finals teams in the same way that everyone in our team did, by definition. But anyway, just a disclaimer if someone wants to argue against this)

Yes, footy is not explained by stats but I think any reasonable person can look at what I provided above and think of the 23 or so 1st rucks in the league (understanding that 5 or so out of 23 at any given time are going to be injured or split duties, if 23 doesn't fit into 18 teams = 18 1st ruck positions).

Utilising the above rankings and glancing over them and eyeballing how important each stat is, I would suggest that English was about the 3rd-4th best in the league outside of the ruck contest (only Gawn, Cameron and half counting Luke Jackson as the players that were better), and perhaps about the 12th-13th best in the league in the ruck contests, which I think is fair to value each about 50% of a ruck's overall value, nets out to being about the 8th best ruck in the league out of 23 first rucks in 2025. Even if you think the ruck contest itself is more important than 50%, that might drop him out of the top 10 but still comfortably inside the top 15.

All of this is to say that this is comfortably inside the idea of being an established 1st ruck in the league among the competition's 1st rucks, even if you argue that he is in the bottom half of the 18/23 (however you define) established 1st rucks, at least he is good enough to be part of this group in the first place, ie, higher than the threshold of being "gifted" games.

If you are to argue that this is wrong and he is being "gifted" games, I would love to hear an argument why, other than the fact "I remember that he lost a head-to-head matchup with one game out of the 23 that he played on the season".

You argue previous seasons which I'm not going to do the whole stats gamut again other than to say that the spread of statistics rankings is similar year-to-year from 2020 to 2022 and last year, and 2023 was an outlier of a season where his type of strengths were similar but basically every stat was about 5 places higher in the rankings.

 

[bobs head soup]

A geriatric, semi retired Goldstein held his own against English not too long ago. He's the 'best option' and has been because we haven't had any other options outside of Steff Martin and Sweet (who Bevo didn't give a fair go).
Let's apply the same logic to Buss. The only other option we have for the 3rd tall defender is/was Gardener and a cooked Jones.
So let's give him a go like we have English/Gardener/McNeil/VDM/McComb etc,etc, before we write him off.

If you acknowledge that English is currently our best option, your earlier comment that he is still being gifted games is clearly just sh.tstirring.

 

[cecil]

A geriatric, semi retired Goldstein held his own against English not too long ago. He's the 'best option' and has been because we haven't had any other options outside of Steff Martin and Sweet (who Bevo didn't give a fair go).
Let's apply the same logic to Buss. The only other option we have for the 3rd tall defender is/was Gardener and a cooked Jones.
So let's give him a go like we have English/Gardener/McNeil/VDM/McComb etc,etc, before we write him off.

Which game vs Essendon? Because Tim actually smashed him both games.

Round 21:
English 22 touches, 6 marks, 26 hitouts, 6 clearances
Goldstein 8 touches, 1 mark, 28 hitouts, 2 clearances,

Round 11:
English: 26 touches, 8 marks, 17 hitouts, 8 clearances - 2 coaches votes
Goldstein: 8 touches, 4 marks, 2 clearances, 29 hitouts

 

[grassman75]

Best (and fairest) man?

Bride

 

[BigFloppa]

English is developing nicely. Talls take time. Needs to lift a few weights and retain his you-know-what and he will be a monster next year.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Can we swoop in and grab Rampe?

Couldn’t hurt to have his experience around with Jones gone

 

[Doggies7]

Can we swoop in and grab Rampe?

Couldn’t hurt to have his experience around with Jones gone

Sydney pick before us hey so we won't get the chance might likely. I was thinking it too but I think he's 36 during next season and pretty cooked now. The list spot will be the cost which we probably have more pressing needs too for someone who can contribute.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

Whenever Tim English retires people will start to appreciate how good he is. Since he took over the #1 ruck who has been better? Gawn and Grundy obviously. Then he’s in the same pack with Marshall, Witts etc. Jackson and Xerri will obviously pass him as they play more footy.

I get his frustrating at times, but he’s been comfortably top 5 in the league for his position for 4 or so years. Not everyone can be Max Gawn

11

Max Gawn

Age

33

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.7

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

35.3

5star

D

18.5

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

7.0

4star

CL

3.5

4star

HO

29.2

5star

D

8.4

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

15.6

5star

.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

I feel like Buss gets a lot of unwarranted hate. Everytime I’ve seen him play VFL he looks like a decent developing key back?

 

[Libbaaaa]

Whenever Tim English retires people will start to appreciate how good he is. Since he took over the #1 ruck who has been better? Gawn and Grundy obviously. Then he’s in the same pack with Marshall, Witts etc. Jackson and Xerri will obviously pass him as they play more footy.

I get his frustrating at times, but he’s been comfortably top 5 in the league for his position for 4 or so years. Not everyone can be Max Gawn.

I think the frustration with him isn't entirely his fault. I know I have been guilty of blaming him too much when teams get a run on against us and are just walking it out of the middle, asking why isn't he winning the hit out when he is only a part of the overall set-up issues we have faced for a while now in the middle.

 

[bresker]

Buss has played circa 95% of his games in the VFL, isn't that the definition of patience ?

Any impatience lies within a section of the supporter base.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

I think the frustration with him isn't entirely his fault. I know I have been guilty of blaming him too much when teams get a run on against us and are just walking it out of the middle, asking why isn't he winning the hit out when he is only a part of the overall set-up issues we have faced for a while now in the middle.

It’s incredibly harsh to blame those just on Tim. It’s the whole midfield set up.

He’s an easy target cos his strength is around the ground, not in the ruck contest. Just depends what you want in a ruck, I understand if people would prefer the Goldstein/Witts type, but doesn’t mean Tim is shit.

In my time watching footy there’s only been Dean Cox, Brodie Grundy, Luke Jackson and Max Gawn do what Tim does around the ground and dominate the ruck. Two all time greats, a young bloke whose potential is through the roof and Grundy, who you could say had the biggest peak of the lot. Sometimes we should look at what a player can do instead of what he doesn’t.

 

[Libbaaaa]

It’s incredibly harsh to blame those just on Tim. It’s the whole midfield set up.

He’s an easy target cos his strength is around the ground, not in the ruck contest. Just depends what you want in a ruck, I understand if people would prefer the Goldstein/Witts type, but doesn’t mean Tim is shit.

In my time watching footy there’s only been Dean Cox, Brodie Grundy, Luke Jackson and Max Gawn do what Tim does around the ground and dominate the ruck. Two all time greats, a young bloke whose potential is through the roof and Grundy, who you could say had the biggest peak of the lot. Sometimes we should look at what a player can do instead of what he doesn’t.

I agree it is on the entire set-up, we just don't seem to have a go to mix of mids that can simply lock down/draw repeated ball-ups to take some heat out of the game (we also don't have this lever down back, to just chip it around a bit, take some pace out of the game etc...)

 

[Mofra]

Yeah around 2007/8 then a few hamstrings issues around 2010

VU saved his career - he was basically taught a completely new running gait over one pre-season to stop his hamstrings from tearing.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

I agree it is on the entire set-up, we just don't seem to have a go to mix of mids that can simply lock down/draw repeated ball-ups to take some heat out of the game (we also don't have this lever down back, to just chip it around a bit, take some pace out of the game etc...)

We’ve never replaced Dunkley. Have to wonder if we put Dunks in the middle during that grand final onslaught if it would’ve made a difference.. don’t think Bont, Liber and Treloar have had a worse 5 minutes in their careers.

 

[stefoid]

Strength is great, but body work / 1:1 contests are more skill than brute.

If all of our tall backs are poor at this, then we need ore coaching in that area.

 

[Mofra]

Strength is great, but body work / 1:1 contests are more skill than brute.

If all of our tall backs are poor at this, then we need ore coaching in that area.

.... And/or a system that minimises clean D50 entries so we can reduce the number of one on ones our defenders find themselves in.

Nobody can tell me a FB/CHB combo of Fletcher Roberts and Joel Hamling were one on one brutes.

 

[bresker]

It’s incredibly harsh to blame those just on Tim. It’s the whole midfield set up.

He’s an easy target cos his strength is around the ground, not in the ruck contest. Just depends what you want in a ruck, I understand if people would prefer the Goldstein/Witts type, but doesn’t mean Tim is shit.

In my time watching footy there’s only been Dean Cox, Brodie Grundy, Luke Jackson and Max Gawn do what Tim does around the ground and dominate the ruck. Two all time greats, a young bloke whose potential is through the roof and Grundy, who you could say had the biggest peak of the lot. Sometimes we should look at what a player can do instead of what he doesn’t.

English was very good this season, probably better than his AA year . He frequently takes on two rucks , such as Darcy & Jackson , and breaks even or beats them. He had his best game against Gawn this year, and he's potentially the GOAT.

He improved every facet of his game but its still not enough for some on here.

He's very fit & durable and that's an underrated aspect of his game. He's on the paddock more than most other no 1 rucks.


He'll enjoy the new throwing up rule. When there's an uneven bounce, he struggles as the opposition ruck gets their bigger body & massive arse in the way to direct the ball. Plus he's not great at reading it.

If the ball is true, he can use his leap.

Whoops i broke the Tim English rule

 

[4Seasons]

We've been watching out for few preseasons already, hopefully the next one will be the charm.

I recognise that he is decent height, but possibly because of his shoulder issues, he doesn't play like a guy who has a size or strength advantage over his opponents. He tends to look like he is just battling to break even in that dimension most of the time.

I think he needs to work on his athleticism and anticipation as much as his strength, particularly if his shoulders are going to be a chronic issue.

What pre seasons?
Stop making things up.

 

[Mutt]

English was very good this season, probably better than his AA year . He frequently takes on two rucks , such as Darcy & Jackson , and breaks even or beats them. He had his best game against Gawn this year, and he's potentially the GOAT.

He improved every facet of his game but its still not enough for some on here.

He's very fit & durable and that's an underrated aspect of his game. He's on the paddock more than most other no 1 rucks.


He'll enjoy the new throwing up rule. When there's an uneven bounce, he struggles as the opposition ruck gets their bigger body & massive arse in the way to direct the ball. Plus he's not great at reading it.

If the ball is true, he can use his leap.

Whoops i broke the Tim English rule

There is no Tim English rule as such - I was hoping we could avoid 'War and Peace' sized posts that go on for days and clog up the thread - as we witnessed during the Steven May "debate". The discussion on English thus far has been fine in my view.

 

[Proffessor]

I feel like Buss gets a lot of unwarranted hate. Everytime I’ve seen him play VFL he looks like a decent developing key back?

He is not getting hate, warranted or unwarranted.

People are simply questioning where he is at in terms of his development and whether he will indeed be able to make it. This should be expected for a high draft pick who hasn't established himself at the level after three years in the system, and after being passed by a rookie selection who came in a year and a bit later.

If he was at another less patient club, he might have been delisted already.

The fact that the role he is being developed to fill has been the Bulldog's regularly exploited Achillies heal, has also added some additional focus. If he was a midfielder who was taking a bit longer than hoped, there would be less scrutiny as the care factor would be a lot lower.

The issue for Busslinger is that by this stage, the club needed him to be looking like a long-term cornerstone of our defence at AFL level, not like a decent developing back in the VFL who might still make it if we show a bit more patience.