Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gralin]

She had to have known this was going to be the reaction, but Booing a teenager is pretty ordinary.

in saying that, I can understand parents voicing their frustrations at the situation, especially those parents of the competitors who have just watched their daughters beaten by a someone who not all that long ago, was a biological male.

Her time, was top 25 in the state for male competitors.

This at just a high school level..

Which time?

 

[Gethelred]

If it weren't appalling, it'd be funny.

Isn't it about the mental health and wellbeing of children that they're being taken from gender affirming care lists? Isn't it supposedly about ensuring that they're treating them better, that they're getting 'the right treatment', whatever the **** that is?

This is a 15-16 year old human, regardless of their gender, and it's understandable that she's getting booed?

Wanna know what's going to irreparably damage a child?

**** fairness. There's no excusing the booing of a child.

Edit: and I despise this swear filter change, Chief. There needs to be the ability to say what you want to say.

 

[gouki88]

If it weren't appalling, it'd be funny.

Isn't it about the mental health and wellbeing of children that they're being taken from gender affirming care lists? Isn't it supposedly about ensuring that they're treating them better, that they're getting 'the right treatment', whatever the heck that is?

This is a 15-16 year old human, regardless of their gender, and it's understandable that she's getting booed?

Wanna know what's going to irreparably damage a child?

heck fairness. There's no excusing the booing of a child.

Edit: and I despise this swear filter change, Chief. There needs to be the ability to say what you want to say.

Hear hear to all, but especially the emboldened

 

[SnakeMan86]

Which time?

Nope that's my error. I saw that in a reddit thread, that turned out to be bull** and then removed.

I'll delete.

 

[ShanDog]

If it weren't appalling, it'd be funny.

Isn't it about the mental health and wellbeing of children that they're being taken from gender affirming care lists? Isn't it supposedly about ensuring that they're treating them better, that they're getting 'the right treatment', whatever the heck that is?

This is a 15-16 year old human, regardless of their gender, and it's understandable that she's getting booed?

Wanna know what's going to irreparably damage a child?

heck fairness. There's no excusing the booing of a child.

Edit: and I despise this swear filter change, Chief. There needs to be the ability to say what you want to say.

Yeah, it's pretty understandable. For almost everyone in the crowd, the event was about cheering their girl on. They weren't focussed on the mental health and inclusivity circle-jerk for the trans kid, they were there to support their daughters/nieces/students who had put in the hard yards for a long time to make it that far.

Of course they will be frustrated. And it's justified when there's people who will say "**** fairness" because apparently the feelings of a biologically male athlete trumps their right to excel in their own sport. Let's not forget that trans kid also made a conscious choice to run with the girls at and age with one of the peak performance advantages.

 

[CM86]

Yeah, it's pretty understandable. For almost everyone in the crowd, the event was about cheering their girl on. They weren't focussed on the mental health and inclusivity circle-jerk for the trans kid, they were there to support their daughters/nieces/students who had put in the hard yards for a long time to make it that far.

Of course they will be frustrated. And it's justified when there's people who will say "heck fairness" because apparently the feelings of a biologically male athlete trumps their right to excel in their own sport. Let's not forget that trans kid also made a conscious choice to run with the girls at and age with one of the peak performance advantages.

ShanDog, how much have you read about this entire incident so far?
How much do you know about it?

 

[ShanDog]

ShanDog, how much have you read about this entire incident so far?
How much do you know about it?

A few articles trying to get as much detail as I can, but haven't seen the backstory to the individual involved. Why?

 

[Chief]

Edit: and I despise this swear filter change, @Chief. There needs to be the ability to say what you want to say.

What would you prefer?

 

[Gethelred]

What would you prefer?

Even just **** again. 'Heck' doesn't make sense in that space, and softens the intended meaning.

 

[Gethelred]

Yeah, it's pretty understandable. For almost everyone in the crowd, the event was about cheering their girl on. They weren't focussed on the mental health and inclusivity circle-jerk for the trans kid, they were there to support their daughters/nieces/students who had put in the hard yards for a long time to make it that far.

Of course they will be frustrated. And it's justified when there's people who will say "heck fairness" because apparently the feelings of a biologically male athlete trumps their right to excel in their own sport. Let's not forget that trans kid also made a conscious choice to run with the girls at and age with one of the peak performance advantages.

Understandable, but justifiable?

The boos were not from other athletes. The boos were from spectators. Supposedly grown adults, in full possession of their faculties.

You're content to inflict mental damage on a child because of your political views.

But that's okay, because you stood fast to your beliefs. Content in your opinion - and it is an opinion - that you didn't allow a child to win a race without letting your voice be heard; not in disapproval - disapproval and complaint might be something I disagree with, but not something I'll think less of you for - but in open rejection of that person.

I think we're done here.

 

[gouki88]

What would you prefer?

Any combination of symbols. Heck makes me feel like I'm being forced to use 'doggo lingo'

 

[SnakeMan86]

Understandable, but justifiable?

The boos were not from other athletes. The boos were from spectators. Supposedly grown adults, in full possession of their faculties.

You're content to inflict mental damage on a child because of your political views.

But that's okay, because you stood fast to your beliefs. Content in your opinion - and it is an opinion - that you didn't allow a child to win a race without letting your voice be heard; not in disapproval - disapproval and complaint might be something I disagree with, but not something I'll think less of you for - but in open rejection of that person.

I think we're done here.

Isn't the opposite the same thing?

Like, allowingaa competitor, who less than 2 years ago was a biological male, also inflicting mental damage on the rest of the female competitors for political views?

Or os the mental damage of the female born competitors irrelevant when it comes to "inclusion"?

 

[Gethelred]

Isn't the opposite the same thing?

Like, allowingaa competitor, who less than 2 years ago was a biological male, also inflicting mental damage on the rest of the female competitors for political views?

Or os the mental damage of the female born competitors irrelevant when it comes to "inclusion"?

Jesus.

Your post is such a truly stupid thing to say on what is a sports website. Do I have to compile a list of main board threads complaining about supposed unfairness to demonstrate how stupid your argument is here?

You'd better check on Plugger35, make sure he's not mentally damaged by St Kilda's viccitudes.

Even provided I viewed a supposed lack of fairness as mentally damaging - and I don't - it is significantly less damaging than social rejection is.

 

[ShanDog]

Understandable, but justifiable?

The boos were not from other athletes. The boos were from spectators. Supposedly grown adults, in full possession of their faculties.

You're content to inflict mental damage on a child because of your political views.

But that's okay, because you stood fast to your beliefs. Content in your opinion - and it is an opinion - that you didn't allow a child to win a race without letting your voice be heard; not in disapproval - disapproval and complaint might be something I disagree with, but not something I'll think less of you for - but in open rejection of that person.

I think we're done here.

You're ascribing motivation to my comments that I don't have for an incident that I was not a part of.

 

[Gethelred]

You're ascribing motivation to my comments that I don't have for an incident that I was not a part of.

I'm taking you at your word. Do you not want me to take you at your word?

I've made it pretty clear what my complaint here is: I view this kind of treatment of a child - to say nothing of her being trans - as abhorrent. You've then proceeded to attempt justification explanation of and/or to excuse the behaviour.

You're welcome to attempt a form of semantic escape if you choose if that's your wish.

 

[ShanDog]

I'm taking you at your word. Do you not want me to take you at your word?

I've made it pretty clear what my complaint here is: I view this kind of treatment of a child - to say nothing of her being trans - as abhorrent. You've then proceeded to attempt justification explanation of and/or to excuse the behaviour.

You're welcome to attempt a form of semantic escape if you choose if that's your wish.

Bah, horsepoop. You're disproportionately upset by something and lashing out at me because I dared not show unquestioning and unwavering agreement - standard fare for these sort of arguments. Instead of caring about how all the other competitors feel, you only empathise with the trans kid, which is maybe why you aren't seeing the matter for what it is - very grey, rather than the black and white quagmire of competing rights and values that it actually is.

The kid should never have been able to compete against the girls. The boos for the situation are entirely justified. That the kid would feel they are the object of the boos is sad, but they also should take some ownership of the decision they made to put themselves in that position. Or perhaps their parents should, anyway. The event organisers are ultimately responsible and should be the ones to cop the ire of the crowd. Hope they do.

In many ways, it really sucks getting older. Every little niggle takes longer to heal, energy levels just aren't what they used to be, and you start getting weird physical issues that you never would have anticipated as a younger person. But there are definitely a few positives, and the biggest one for mine is being far more content with coming to your own conclusions without worrying, "OMG but what will they think of me?!" It's very liberating to be honest with yourself. So, you can take me at my word here or continue to attack my character, whether that be for what I've actually said or what you want to pretend I've said. It doesn't bother me.

 

[Gethelred]

Bah, horsepoop. You're disproportionately upset by something and lashing out at me because I dared not show unquestioning and unwavering agreement - standard fare for these sort of arguments. Instead of caring about how all the other competitors feel, you only empathise with the trans kid, which is maybe why you aren't seeing the matter for what it is - very grey, rather than the black and white quagmire of competing rights and values that it actually is.

Intellectualising twaddle, designed to allow you to escape your own moral imperative to protect people from harm.

The kid should never have been able to compete against the girls.

This is one argument, one capable of defense.

The boos for the situation are entirely justified. That the kid would feel they are the object of the boos is sad, but they also should take some ownership of the decision they made to put themselves in that position.

Hang on.

You said this above:

You're ascribing motivation to my comments that I don't have for an incident that I was not a part of.

Was this nothing more than an evasion, an expiation of burden?

You're either a) in a neutral position, positing that the boos are unfortunate or understandable or b) in a position of full advocacy. She should never have been there, and you would've booed had you been there yourself.

If you think booing a child is justified, you're not in the former camp, Shandog.

Or perhaps their parents should, anyway. The event organisers are ultimately responsible and should be the ones to cop the ire of the crowd. Hope they do.

Then, blame them. Don't boo a teenager.

It's that ****ing easy.

In many ways, it really sucks getting older. Every little niggle takes longer to heal, energy levels just aren't what they used to be, and you start getting weird physical issues that you never would have anticipated as a younger person. But there are definitely a few positives, and the biggest one for mine is being far more content with coming to your own conclusions without worrying, "OMG but what will they think of me?!" It's very liberating to be honest with yourself. So, you can take me at my word here or continue to attack my character, whether that be for what I've actually said or what you want to pretend I've said. It doesn't bother me.

I'm not attacking your character. I'm telling you that this viewpoint is abhorrent, because it is. You can choose how you take this; and yes, one such attitude could be 'I'm not bothered by your disapproval'.

I wonder what your younger self might've said to you had you told them you were able to justify inflicting mental anguish on a child. Would you have been as unaffected then as you believe you are now.

The other side of it is also that I don't bear your scars, Shan. I don't know what you've gone through or whatever else has brought you to this point or this opinion, and for all I know you have your reasons. But this is a bridge too far for me.

As stated, I think we're done here.

 

[SnakeMan86]

Jesus.

Your post is such a truly stupid thing to say on what is a sports website. Do I have to compile a list of main board threads complaining about supposed unfairness to demonstrate how stupid your argument is here?

You'd better check on Plugger35, make sure he's not mentally damaged by St Kilda's viccitudes.

Even provided I viewed a supposed lack of fairness as mentally damaging - and I don't - it is significantly less damaging than social rejection is.

laughable. So either you don't see it as an obvious lack of fairness... (competitor was not a state champion as a male... is a state champion as a female ... go figure)

Or bad luck. The hard work you put in is irrelevant. Everyone needs to play regardless of fairness

 

[Gethelred]

laughable. So either you don't see it as an obvious lack of fairness... (competitor was not a state champion as a male... is a state champion as a female ... go figure)

Or bad luck. The hard work you put in is irrelevant. Everyone needs to play regardless of fairness

We've - as in, you and I, as well as others - have had this conversation before. I'm disinterested in treading old, thought experimental ground.

I'm also leaving the thread for a bit, before I say something I might truly regret.

 

[Gralin]

laughable. So either you don't see it as an obvious lack of fairness... (competitor was not a state champion as a male... is a state champion as a female ... go figure)

Or bad luck. The hard work you put in is irrelevant. Everyone needs to play regardless of fairness

Do you think a crowd booing a teenager for being transgender is a fair response?

 

[ShanDog]

Intellectualising twaddle, designed to allow you to escape your own moral imperative to protect people from harm.

I have no such moral imperative, ESPECIALLY when I wasn't there, nor did I do anything to that person. Do you feel you are protecting this stranger from the other side of the world with your righteousness here on the BigFooty football website?

You're either a) in a neutral position, positing that the boos are unfortunate or understandable or b) in a position of full advocacy. She should never have been there, and you would've booed had you been there yourself.

If you think booing a child is justified, you're not in the former camp, Shandog.

Neither. These are false dichotomies born of black and white, low decoupling thinking.

She shouldn't have been there. The boos are unfortunate but justified. Everyone loses in this situation, and the event organisers are ultimately responsible. That's my stance.

I wonder what your younger self might've said to you had you told them you were able to justify inflicting mental anguish on a child. Would you have been as unaffected then as you believe you are now.

I think you and I are wired very differently. Additionally, I have seen and experienced actual traumatic things, and it makes me unaffected by the scope creep of 'anguish' and 'trauma' that is so prevalent these days. Younger ShanDog would have been outright annoyed, but I've tried very hard to be more empathetic.

 

[ShanDog]

Do you think a crowd booing a teenager for being transgender is a fair response?

You missed a calling as a politician with your ability to spin things whichever way aligns with your viewpoint.

 

[Gralin]

You missed a calling as a politician with your ability to spin things whichever way aligns with your viewpoint.

How am I spinning things by asking that question?

 

[ShanDog]

How am I spinning things by asking that question?

Are you working from the viewpoint that the only reason every person in that crowd who boo'd was doing so directly at, and for the reason of, that kid being trans? If so, that's how.

 

[Gralin]

Are you working from the viewpoint that the only reason every person in that crowd who boo'd was doing so directly at, and for the reason of, that kid being trans? If so, that's how.

What reasons that don't involve her being trans would you suggest the booing was for?

The kid should never have been able to compete against the girls. The boos for the situation are entirely justified. That the kid would feel they are the object of the boos is sad, but they also should take some ownership of the decision they made to put themselves in that position. Or perhaps their parents should, anyway. The event organisers are ultimately responsible and should be the ones to cop the ire of the crowd. Hope they do.

Why shouldn't she have been able to compete? Why were the boos justified?

She shouldn't have been there. The boos are unfortunate but justified. Everyone loses in this situation, and the event organisers are ultimately responsible. That's my stance.

Why shouldn't she have been there? Why were the boos justified?

Do you think they were a fair and proportionate response to a high school running race being won by a trans girl?

Do you think her being trans has nothing to do with your above posts or this situation?