Opinion Trent West as a key defender

[Vdubs]

As I said, they are only occasional back-ups, with Simpson on his own very unlikely unless we are forced into it, and unless he shows marked improvement and mobility.
As a medical question, in relation to McIntosh, wouldn't the fact that a player has been successfully treated for, and has recovered from, a series of different ankle and leg injuries, make him statistically less likely to suffer future ankle/leg injuries?

His current situation involves that knee problem he had recent surgery for according to the media releases.
I don't know what you are referring to regards successful recovery. The achilles? (both) Yes, they are fine, from all reports, but they are NOT the issue.

 

[Vdubs]

In general terms Fred, anybody with recurrent different ankle and leg problems is a bit of a time bomb, hard to generalise, but calf tears, hammies, usually recur, at some stage. GENERALLY, not referring to any player here at all.

 

[FredLeDeux]

His current situation involves that knee problem he had recent surgery for according to the media releases.
I don't know what you are referring to regards successful recovery. The achilles? (both) Yes, they are fine, from all reports, but they are NOT the issue.

I was referring to his previous knee, ankle and achilles injuries and, obviously, assuming a successful recovery from the most recent op. I never suggested he would be playing at all until this is assured, let alone on his own.

 

[FredLeDeux]

In general terms Fred, anybody with recurrent different ankle and leg problems is a bit of a time bomb, hard to generalise, but calf tears, hammies, usually recur, at some stage. GENERALLY, not referring to any player here at all.

Righto, our posts crossed.
But he hasn't had any of those nightmare calf tears and hammies, has he?
Surely the club wouldn't have taken that risk?

 

[Vdubs]

I was referring to his previous knee, ankle and achilles injuries and, obviously, assuming a successful recovery from the most recent op. I never suggested he would be playing at all until this is assured, let alone on his own.

I don't think Ottens ever played solo for us, and HMac woud be a similar if not more, risk. Can not assume anything until we see him lining up for selection, and on the ground. As we have known, he played only 7 or so games in 3 years, which is very unlucky. It surely is time his luck changes, and if it does, we have a good one.

 

[Vdubs]

Righto, our posts crossed.
But he hasn't had any of those nightmare calf tears and hammies, has he?
Surely the club wouldn't have taken that risk?

No, that was a separate GENERAL comment.

 

[CF]

So it seems the solution for every player we have a doubt over, or not sure where to play them is play them in defence? I don't think our defence needs another tall player especially if they plan to retire PODS by playing him there at times. We need some of our medium & small defenders to lift their work rate and take the next step as Enright & J Hunt have only a few seasons left in them.

HMac has come to us with injuries so he wont be played in every game and as you rightly point out they'd be hoping to prime him for finals to do an Otto. That means West will be needed to play as a ruckman throughout the season.

Vardy will still need to be eased back into things so West might play a role in helping him there as well.

Don't see him playing in defence.

West is going to become our next Mark Blake (only better a better player of course) and that is being the guy who takes the heat while the club nursemaids its star players through injury and form issues.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

West can kick goals and take contested marks, not to mention he doesn't get a Bronx cheer whenever he executes a kick in play. He cops it from many here because he's "undersized". Whatever that is supposed to mean.

 

[FredLeDeux]

West can kick goals and take contested marks, not to mention he doesn't get a Bronx cheer whenever he executes a kick in play. He cops it from many here because he's "undersized". Whatever that is supposed to mean.

The criticisms I have seen say he's a 2nd ruckman, not a 1st ruckman.
But that may be short-hand for "undersized".

 

[Partridge]

West can kick goals and take contested marks, not to mention he doesn't get a Bronx cheer whenever he executes a kick in play. He cops it from many here because he's "undersized". Whatever that is supposed to mean.

It's one of my favourite arguments. Vardy is the same height but much lighter.

He's never criticised as being undersized though. Interesting.

 

[SleazySimon]

I don't think Ottens ever played solo for us, and HMac woud be a similar if not more, risk. Can not assume anything until we see him lining up for selection, and on the ground. As we have known,he played only 7 or so games in 3 years, which is very unlucky. It surely is time his luck changes, and if it does, we have a good one.

That is a little misleading. He also missed alot of senior footy because Todd Goldstein was preferred ahead of him at north. Can remember hmac playing a bit of footy for werribee in the last few years. Would be interested if anyone knows how many reserves games he's played in the last 3 years? Pretty sure hmac has played for every one of his last 3 year's in the reserves and pretty sure (i hope) has never had any real long term injurys. Think his last injury was 3 months long.

 

[FredLeDeux]

That is a little misleading. He also missed alot of senior footy because Todd Goldstein was preferred ahead of him at north. Can remember hmac playing a bit of footy for werribee in the last few years. Would be interested if anyone knows how many reserves games he's played in the last 3 years? Pretty sure hmac has played for every one of his last 3 year's in the reserves and pretty sure (i hope) has never had any real long term injurys. Think his last injury was 3 months long.

Selected extracts from Wikipedia:
Drafted by North Melbourne in the 2002 AFL Draft at pick 9, McIntosh had ankle problems in 2003.In his second year he sprained his ankle.
The 2008 season was a terrible one for McIntosh. He ruptured his posterior cruciate ligament against Fremantle in Round 12. He made a return later in the season but he could not reach the heights he achieved in the 2007 Season.
But prior to the 2011 season, McIntosh required surgery on both Achilles tendonsand played just one game for the season.
He returned for Round 1 2012 .... McIntosh suffered a knee injury in round 7 which eventually required surgery,restricting him to just 7 games for the year.

 

[Vdubs]

It's one of my favourite arguments. Vardy is the same height but much lighter.

He's never criticised as being undersized though. Interesting.

Vardy is not being groomed as a ruck at this stage is he, more a KF, who can contest ruck if the ball is forward? West was effectively our #1 ruck last year, and mostly was effective. Doubt that Vardy could tolerate such a workload.

 

[Vdubs]

That is a little misleading. He also missed alot of senior footy because Todd Goldstein was preferred ahead of him at north. Can remember hmac playing a bit of footy for werribee in the last few years. Would be interested if anyone knows how many reserves games he's played in the last 3 years? Pretty sure hmac has played for every one of his last 3 year's in the reserves and pretty sure (i hope) has never had any real long term injurys. Think his last injury was 3 months long.

He has one NOW. First did the PCL in 08, had LARS surgery etc in 2012, still rehabilitating now, that is surely the definition of a LONG TERM INJURY.

And in 2011, he missed the season with surgery for both Achilles tendons, again a very long term injury, or injuries. Bit of VFL end season just before he played the last AFL game with Goldy v Tigers.

Don't know what he did in 2010, you may be correct about VFL- Hardly a complimentary CV though, as Goldstein back then was raw.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Vardy is not being groomed as a ruck at this stage is he, more a KF, who can contest ruck if the ball is forward? West was effectively our #1 ruck last year, and mostly was effective. Doubt that Vardy could tolerate such a workload.

I don't know what Vardy's being groomed for at this stage, though it seems unlikely he will be asked to bear a West-2012 workload.
I don't think you can say West was "mostly" effective last season.
We were 4th in centre clearances where opponents couldn't nobble his leap and agility.
We were 17th in other stoppages where the bigger blokes could hold, scrag and lean on him to stop him jumping.
But back to the OP, I would be very surprised to see him at CHB.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Given that the holding and scragging thing at ruck contests will apparently now be a thing of the past, West will surely benefit from this.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Given that the holding and scragging thing at ruck contests will apparently now be a thing of the past, West will surely benefit from this.

Do you also believe in the Easter Bunny?

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Do you also believe in the Easter Bunny?

Why would you doubt the AFL's proposed rule changes? Every time they have announced a change that "sanitises" the game they follow through with it to the letter. You seem to be getting a bit pissy Fred.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Why would you doubt the AFL's proposed rule changes? Every time they have announced a change that "sanitises" the game they follow through with it to the letter. You seem to be getting a bit pissy Fred.

They have announced changes to the ruck rules or their interpretation approximately once per season for the last 10 years.
The umps apply the changes erratically and randomly, and more often than not incorrectly (pinging the responder rather than the instigator) for the first 2 or 3 games, and then generally don't bother because it's too hard (or because media trogs criticise them for "over-umpiring").
I think it's likely to happen again, but that's just based on experience and reason.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

And those ruck changes have stayed. We still see enigmatic frees from every contest, frees against rucks charging at the centre bounce and the circle have remained. This one will stick too, because of all the injured ruckmen across all teams.

 

[FredLeDeux]

And those ruck changes have stayed. We still see enigmatic frees from every contest, frees against rucks charging at the centre bounce and the circle have remained. This one will stick too, because of all the injured ruckmen across all teams.

The centre circle one has stayed, the others haven't; but if they do, you're correct, it will help the more athletic types like West do their job without unfair interference.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

The centre circle one has stayed, the others haven't; but if they do, you're correct, it will help the more athletic types like West do their job without unfair interference.

Yeah they stayed. Darren Jolly's FF/FA in in 2010 was 36/48, in 2011 was 27/39 and in 2012 was 26/37. He was always one of the worst infringers/scraggers at ruck contests, and has been getting nailed for it over the last 3 seasons.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Yeah they stayed. Darren Jolly's FF/FA in in 2010 was 36/48, in 2011 was 27/39 and in 2012 was 26/37. He was always one of the worst infringers/scraggers at ruck contests, and has been getting nailed for it over the last 3 seasons.

Yes, those stats support your argument.
Although Mumford is another one of the worst offenders, and his FF/FA over those 3 seasons were 33/31, 31/41, 29/26; so perhaps Jolly is just resorting to illegal tactics more often as he gets older and more earthbound.
Anyway, the changes are long overdue, and we can only hope that they are consistently enforced and that they work to our advantage.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

West is going to really benefit with Mac and the natural progression of Simpson. He is a genuine mobile ruck option who can contribute in attack and defense....he is not a focal point and therfore wouldn't be suited to CHB, however as third man he is very dangerous.

Am really looking forward to seeing him in partnesrhip with genuine number 1 rucks.

Going to be a good year for West, as there is a definite requirement for his type in the gameplan.