Universal Love TRTT Part 7: Swimming & T*ts Variety Bash

[Andre]

An issue that doesn't sit right with me is the general attitude surrounding expectations on men being the breadwinner. I think this is a core reason why when a man loses their job, mental health issues arise heavily. Society has set it up so we're expected to play that role in the family unit and if you don't, you're basically useless. Encouraging women to go into high paying professional careers helps (and imo is ******* awesome for many reasons), but I think there needs to be more done to address men and assist them in not feeling ashamed for playing other roles or simply for earning less.

This one's shit from most men and women. Men still feel they have to provide and feel inferior if they don't. However part of the change required in attitude here is from women. Men with degrees (as a very crude proxy for intelligence and income) are much more likely to marry a women without one then vice versa. Certainly not all, but there's still societal 'norms' that women 'can't marry down'. I've got a degree and my wife is working towards her second part time ATM, so I'm not coming at this from some incel 'Stacies should love slovenly me' point of view, but there's much more looking down the nose (as prospective long term partners, not as 'fun when young') at men without degrees by women then vice versa. Which leads to more men AND women without someone that could be someone who'd make them very happy.

 

[Magus]

This one's shit from most men and women. Men still feel they have to provide and feel inferior if they don't.

There's a bit more to it than purely making the money though. There's a strong link between men's mental health and having employment because the job gives them something to do with their time and makes them feel useful.

Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with men staying home to look after the kids, but it's a different kind of reward. If guys can do it, great, but a lot need to be in the workforce.

 

[Forzaport]

Strategies for men to improve their physical and mental health:

- Reduce/eliminate sugar and alcohol
- Learn to count calories and aim for a slight deficit (cutting sugar and alcohol will help a lot)
- Walk 10,000 steps per day
- Lift weights and build to 100 pushups/sit ups/squats
- Find inspirational accounts to follow on Twitter/Insta
- Remove toxic people from your life and surround yourself with positive people
- Find a hobby that has a social element
- Ignore the haters (never apologise for being male)
- Don't engage in virtue signaling
- Don't fall in the trap of victim mentality (take charge)
- Separate identity from employment
- It's never too late to start and you're never too old

 

[Andre]

Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with men staying home to look after the kids, but it's a different kind of reward. If guys can do it, great, but a lot need to be in the workforce.

I was at least lucky enough the first 2 years of my eldest working from home whilst in Melbourne, then a few more years once back in SA of one day a week working from home, so I could help. It is a different reward, but during that time I got great satisfaction of spending many hours with my boys getting them reading well (using Phonics, I certainly wouldn't have left that to the 'whole word' and sounding out bullshit of much of the schools teaching). Even now with them 13 and 11 I do hope when my wife eventually finishes her degree in a couple of years and starts working full time I can wind back at least 1 day a week and spend more time with them.

Many of the minority of men who have taken over the full time duties have posted / written / blogged on how they've not been fully welcomed in by mothers, which is disappointing. Shit I know even from taking my boys to the playground when younger, that despite being there with kids (so you aren't some random perve), you'd get looks every now and then of 'don't get with 10 feet of my kid when playing with yours'.

 

[chickentendies]

There's truth to the idea that men don't discuss their issues enough but I do take issue with this being raised as the only point of discussion every time the subject of men's health is brought up.

It may contribute to their situation but it's not a cause.

"You just need to talk about your feelings more!"
Really? Maybe these guys don't have anyone to talk to. Maybe they're in bad marriages and relationships and don't have a lot of friends. Yeah, there's hotlines set up if you want to talk to a stranger but that would be an absolute last resort for a lot of people that are in the depths of depression.

So yeah there's more to it than "toxic masculinity"
A lack of purpose and a place in the workforce, relationships and being estranged from their children in some cases and addiction would be the main causes imo.

This is gonna sound ****ing dumb I think, but another aspect is that some men don't actually like talking about shit like this. Not in a 'I dont want to be perceived as unmasculine', they just don't like talking about their feelings constantly or in such an open emotive manner. Simply telling them to do so isn't helpful, its why initiatives like the Men's Sheds (https://mensshed.org/) I'm extremely supportive of. I think celebrating everyone's differences is a key aspect of all of this discourse, and attempting to find ways to facilitate said differences will help us achieve greater outcomes in the mental health area.

 

[chickentendies]

This one's shit from most men and women. Men still feel they have to provide and feel inferior if they don't. However part of the change required in attitude here is from women. Men with degrees (as a very crude proxy for intelligence and income) are much more likely to marry a women without one then vice versa. Certainly not all, but there's still societal 'norms' that women 'can't marry down'. I've got a degree and my wife is working towards her second part time ATM, so I'm not coming at this from some incel 'Stacies should love slovenly me' point of view, but there's much more looking down the nose (as prospective long term partners, not as 'fun when young') at men without degrees by women then vice versa. Which leads to more men AND women without someone that could be someone who'd make them very happy.

I know what you mean but I'm reluctant to generalise women in the same way men are shamed for certain traits, although I think you are reluctant too and I think in this context when you refer to women you refer to the targeted women who believe in these attitudes. I think we need to place more accountability on the individual: when we place an issue at the feet of a large demographic (men or women) we're allowing the individuals who are guilty to be absolved of guilt and slink back into a larger group so they don't understand the consequences of their actions as much.

On a sidenote, I've benefitted strongly from gender rights reforms, my partner makes a great wage and is extremely career drive which enabled me to swing back into Uni and only work about 25 - 30 hours a week.

 

[Lagooner]

- Ignore the haters (never apologise for being male)

This is a very good list Forza but what is this point referring to?

 

[raman]

This is a very good list Forza but what is this point referring to?

Lol I was with it aside from this and “virtue signalling”, a concept the idiocy of which of inherent to the phrase.

Man I sure hate it when I’m asked to apologise for being male though.

 

[Janus]

Lol I was with it aside from this and “virtue signalling”, a concept the idiocy of which of inherent to the phrase.

Man I sure hate it when I’m asked to apologise for being male though.

You enjoy being aggressive with your opinions about this sort of thing don't you?

 

[Lagooner]

Many of the minority of men who have taken over the full time duties have posted / written / blogged on how they've not been fully welcomed in by mothers, which is disappointing. Shit I know even from taking my boys to the playground when younger, that despite being there with kids (so you aren't some random perve), you'd get looks every now and then of 'don't get with 10 feet of my kid when playing with yours'.

Haha we’re expecting our first kid next week and I shit you not I looked in the mirror this morning and thought to myself “this mo is on borrowed time coz it ain’t gonna fly at the playground.”

 

[Magus]

I was at least lucky enough the first 2 years of my eldest working from home whilst in Melbourne, then a few more years once back in SA of one day a week working from home, so I could help. It is a different reward, but during that time I got great satisfaction of spending many hours with my boys getting them reading well (using Phonics, I certainly wouldn't have left that to the 'whole word' and sounding out bullshit of much of the schools teaching). Even now with them 13 and 11 I do hope when my wife eventually finishes her degree in a couple of years and starts working full time I can wind back at least 1 day a week and spend more time with them.

Many of the minority of men who have taken over the full time duties have posted / written / blogged on how they've not been fully welcomed in by mothers, which is disappointing. Shit I know even from taking my boys to the playground when younger, that despite being there with kids (so you aren't some random perve), you'd get looks every now and then of 'don't get with 10 feet of my kid when playing with yours'.

It's definitely a fine balance between working too much and having idle hands. I think everyone would like to work a little bit less and have more time with their families.

Your second paragraph was sort of what i was getting at though. I'd say it'd be easier to spend more time at home with the kids and look after the house when kids are more independent. I've got a 5 month old at the moment and my wife is able to attend mothers groups and form relationships with other mums while I'm working.
So essentially I think it isn't as simple as men not wanting to talk about their problems but the fact that the network and support systems aren't quite there yet. It's easy to see how the changing dynamic of work/home life could lead men to feel isolated.

 

[raman]

You enjoy being aggressive with your opinions about this sort of thing don't you?

And I won't apologise for it!

 

[Forzaport]

This is a very good list Forza but what is this point referring to?

When on a pathway to self improvement, there will always be those that want to hold you back because your success makes them jealous. Maintain an inquisitive mind and always seek to learn. Rise above the limitations of ideology and think for yourself, not how others want you to think - they will hate on you for it.

Also, it is not uncommon for men to be guilted for the actions of other men, don’t let this get you down.

 

[Janus]

When on a pathway to self improvement, there will always be those that want to hold you back because your success makes them jealous. Maintain an inquisitive mind and always seek to learn. Rise above the limitations of ideology and think for yourself, not how others want you to think - they will hate on you for it.

Also, it is not uncommon for men to be guilted for the actions of other men, don’t let this get you down.

My idea of self-improvement is to improve the lives of others and share knowledge and ideas so that the collective gains the benefit rather than trying to rise above them. In helping others, you help yourself...because there are certain abilities and traits you will have that others don't, and vice versa.

The world has severed its connection to spirit - the collective consciousness of humanity. We've become addicted to hate instead of love, which are two sides of the same coin.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

When all else fails just have a cone and a beer n' tell the world to get ******.

 

[Lagooner]

When on a pathway to self improvement, there will always be those that want to hold you back because your success makes them jealous. Maintain an inquisitive mind and always seek to learn. Rise above the limitations of ideology and think for yourself, not how others want you to think - they will hate on you for it.

Also, it is not uncommon for men to be guilted for the actions of other men, don’t let this get you down.

The first part is fine but I’m not sure what it has to do with “apologising for being male,” it seems like a completely seperate point.

As for the guilt thing I don’t feel like I’m made to feel this way. If a dude does some really bad shit and it’s followed by a chorus of “don’t rape” or “don’t bash women” or whatever I would just agree and not take it personally “as a man.”

 

[Andre]

I know what you mean but I'm reluctant to generalise women in the same way men are shamed for certain traits, although I think you are reluctant too and I think in this context when you refer to women you refer to the targeted women who believe in these attitudes. I think we need to place more accountability on the individual: when we place an issue at the feet of a large demographic (men or women) we're allowing the individuals who are guilty to be absolved of guilt and slink back into a larger group so they don't understand the consequences of their actions as much.

Oh I certainly don't blame women as a group for this. Take a few non-financial drivers of attraction and men (as a collective group) let themselves down here:
Overweight or obese: ~70% of men, versus ~55% of women. Excessive alcohol or drug consumption - men much more prevalent. Violent behaviour - men much more prevalent. The latter two I would tie into at least some degree toxic masculinity. Incels are nut jobs who think (at least in part) think women should overlook these.

Forzaport 's list is a good start. There's a middle road between toxic masculinity and emasculated eunuch. I hit the gym, have my boys doing Karate with me, yet don't feel the need to get in the face of other guys to be the Alpha male or disparage stay at home dad's or women with degrees or strong women in general (my feminist wife would kill me in my sleep if I tried ) I find it ironic most of the fellow middle aged guys walking out of my gym of a morning, most are also in white collar gear, in reasonable shape and always respectful to others there (men and women), yet would get looked down on as 'pussy whipped' by overly toxic males (who'd be in much worse shape)). ****ing incel's (of varying degrees) need to pull up their proverbial socks and stop acting entitled. They make it hard for those of us trying to walk the middle road to show there is a viable middle road between dickhead and the 'throw the good points of being a man out with the bathwater' pushed by the more extreme Left.

 

[Magus]

My idea of self-improvement is to improve the lives of others and share knowledge and ideas so that the collective gains the benefit rather than trying to rise above them. In helping others, you help yourself...because there are certain abilities and traits you will have that others don't, and vice versa.

The world has severed its connection to spirit - the collective consciousness of humanity. We've become addicted to hate instead of love, which are two sides of the same coin.

Self improvement doesn't have to mean putting anyone else down. Leading by example can be one of the best ways to inspire other people.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

My idea of self-improvement is to improve the lives of others and share knowledge and ideas so that the collective gains the benefit rather than trying to rise above them. In helping others, you help yourself...because there are certain abilities and traits you will have that others don't, and vice versa.

The world has severed its connection to spirit - the collective consciousness of humanity. We've become addicted to hate instead of love, which are two sides of the same coin.

That speech sounds so much better in this song.

 

[Forzaport]

The first part is fine but I’m not sure what it has to do with “apologising for being male,” it seems like a completely seperate point.

As for the guilt thing I don’t feel like I’m made to feel this way. If a dude does some really bad shit and it’s followed by a chorus of “don’t rape” or “don’t bash women” or whatever I would just agree and not take it personally “as a man.”

It can be a separate point and it can be paired with ignoring haters, it works either way.

It's great that you don't feel guilted being male. Unfortunately others do and it is harmful to their mental health.

 

[Doctor Feel]

When all else fails just have a cone and a beer n' tell the world to get ******.

JimmyBeer&Cones

 

[Eddie Dingle]

JimmyBeer&Cones

I thought we weren’t allowed to talk about getting drunk and stoned anymore?

 

[Andre]

It's definitely a fine balance between working too much and having idle hands. I think everyone would like to work a little bit less and have more time with their families.

Your second paragraph was sort of what i was getting at though. I'd say it'd be easier to spend more time at home with the kids and look after the house when kids are more independent. I've got a 5 month old at the moment and my wife is able to attend mothers groups and form relationships with other mums while I'm working.
So essentially I think it isn't as simple as men not wanting to talk about their problems but the fact that the network and support systems aren't quite there yet. It's easy to see how the changing dynamic of work/home life could lead men to feel isolated.

The government could help here. Scandinavian countries are way ahead on ensuring both parents get to bond with their kids once born. Government leave for fathers as well as mothers at up to 80% of pay for various amounts of time. Here (in the West in general), fathers can't take paternity leave easily. It'd help with fathers feeling self-worth at those activities if there was that support, as well as being good for their kids, if something like that was implemented here.

 

[tribey]

What a load of bollocks. Toxic masculinity is a key cause of men's mental health problems, which is exactly what that "left wing ideology" has been trying to point out. It's as harmful to men as to women and quite arguably more.

I have never felt that my health is less valued than women's health. I have certainly felt that I'm less inclined to address my own health than women tend to be. Part of that is not wanting to feel like a pussy. That's toxic... to me.

Oh yeah? Well how come no-one’s encouraging me to have a pap smear every 2 years?

 

[tribey]

Reduce/eliminate sugar

I agree with this in so much as eating to excess or drinking too much soda/juice, but the demonisation of sugar in itself has become hackneyed ‘wellness’ shtick.

We need glucose to survive.