Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[Zidane98]

IDF have killed 40x as many civilians, so they are 40x more genocidal than Hamas.

That is what you support.

Please explain how you arrived at the 40 x figure.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Please explain how you arrived at the 40 x figure.

40000 = 1000 x 40

It doesnt include hospitals, schools, refugee camps which really should factor as an additional multiplier.

 

[faible]

You have many times repeated the false claim that Israel has murdered over 30,000 Israeli civilians in Gaza. That's one of many.

Your that cooked or you repeat Hamas propaganda that often you don't even realise you are doing it these days.

'False'?

Death toll is reported at ~ 34,049

Gaza death toll rises to 34,049, Ministry of Health says

The Israeli military is carrying out what appears to be one of its largest operations in the West Bank since October 7, while broader tensions simmer in the Middle East following strikes between Iran and Israel. Follow for live updates.

edition.cnn.com

Gaza Ministry of Health numbers have been audited in the past and found to be accurate. The US and Israel have both at times used Gaza Ministry of Health figures in their official reporting and communications.

Personally given the scale of destruction I think it's an underestimate, there's going to be a lot of 'missing' people that are bodies under rubble that aren't recognised. There's also a humanitarian crisis from all the starving people that will continue to die.

So Zidane, you tell me, is the number Hamas propaganda?

 

[Zidane98]

How many times has he said Hamas needs to go? Have you read this thread? How is Hamas an "actual genocidal regime" and Israeli government is not? How many Israeli civilians has Hamas killed? How many Palestinian civilians has IDF killed? Which one is more genocidal? They both need to be tried and held accountable for war crimes, they both (Hamas and IDF/War Council) need to go.

You are kidding aren't you? It isn't just Hamas, it is Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran as a collective with Qatar providing financial backing.

All these actors openly declare their desire to rid the world of Jews and destroy Israel as a state. Iran launched a mass attack just recently with murderous intent of killing 10s of thousands of civilians. Israel spent $1 billion on defending the attack! At the same time Hezbollah also attacked Israel and even the Houthis sent a few cruise missiles Israel's way. Please tell me any nation that wouldn't view a mass attack from multiple states surrounding it as genocidal.

Also, I can't help noticing your lack of mentioning of the thousands upon thousands of Gazan civilians that Hamas has either killed through failed rocket attacks or murdered. For some reason this is never brought up as an issue. Neither is the much larger scale genocide committed by Assad against Palestinian civilians over 5 whole years.

 

[Zidane98]

40000 = 1000 x 40

It doesnt include hospitals, schools, refugee camps which really should factor as an additional multiplier.

You've just included the 10-15000 plus Hamas fighters killed on the war and up to 10,000 Gazans that Hamas has killed themselves in your count.


Your job application at the Hamas politburo has been accepted!

 

[Ghost Patrol]

You are kidding aren't you? It isn't just Hamas, it is Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran as a collective with Qatar providing financial backing.

All these actors openly declare their desire to rid the world of Jews and destroy Israel as a state. Iran launched a mass attack just recently with murderous intent of killing 10s of thousands of civilians. Israel spent $1 billion on defending the attack! At the same time Hezbollah also attacked Israel and even the Houthis sent a few cruise missiles Israel's way. Please tell me any nation that wouldn't view a mass attack from multiple states surrounding it as genocidal.

Also, I can't help noticing your lack of mentioning of the thousands upon thousands of Gazan civilians that Hamas has either killed through failed rocket attacks or murdered. For some reason this is never brought up as an issue. Neither is the much larger scale genocide committed by Assad against Palestinian civilians over 5 whole years.

US/UK /Israel is also collective.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

You've just included the 10-15000 plus Hamas fighters killed on the war and up to 10,000 Gazans that Hamas has killed themselves in your count.


Your job application at the Hamas politburo has been accepted!

Your Israel numbers include IDF fighters killed.

 

[faible]

Are your comfortable with the continued existence of Hamas? An actual genocidal regime that actually deliberately kills civilians and boasts about it?

I've said on many, many occasions that I consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation.

I'm more than happy for anyone who's committed a war crime to be dragged before the ICC and receive the harshest possible sentence irrespective of who they represent.

All the things that people claim Hamas would do if they could - e.g. genocide, brag about killing civilians and such - the IDF and members of the Israeli government are actually doing. You understand this, right?

 

[jason_recliner]

Hamas include all Hamas fighters in their casualty figures.

No. There is a civilian death toll - look it up if you care.

...each of those failed rocket attacks usually kill Gazan civilians.

Hard to argue against hard facts such as this!

Consider the densely packed civilian population of 2,000,000, the tonnage of bombs and missiles dropped by Israel, and the estimates that 60% of buildings are damaged. The civilian death toll is entirely credible and may even be adjusted up at the end of the invasion. If it's adjusted down, it won't be by much.

 

[Zidane98]

'False'?

Death toll is reported at ~ 34,049

Gaza death toll rises to 34,049, Ministry of Health says

The Israeli military is carrying out what appears to be one of its largest operations in the West Bank since October 7, while broader tensions simmer in the Middle East following strikes between Iran and Israel. Follow for live updates.

edition.cnn.com

Gaza Ministry of Health numbers have been audited in the past and found to be accurate. The US and Israel have both at times used Gaza Ministry of Health figures in their official reporting and communications.

Personally given the scale of destruction I think it's an underestimate, there's going to be a lot of 'missing' people that are bodies under rubble that aren't recognised. There's also a humanitarian crisis from all the starving people that will continue to die.

So Zidane, you tell me, is the number Hamas propaganda?

You are absolutely cooked. That total number includes Hamas fighters (at least 10,000 plus killed) and all civilians Hamas has killed with their own hands. With over 1000 + failed rocket attacks that number conservatively is 5000+, likely a whole lot more.

Thanks for admitting to repeating Hamas propaganda.


Out of interest how much death and destruction do you believe 1000 + failed rocket attacks in Gaza has caused? Have you bothered to even look into it or are you too deep into Hamas propaganda to care?

 

[jason_recliner]

You are kidding aren't you? It isn't just Hamas, it is Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran as a collective with Qatar providing financial backing.

All these actors openly declare their desire to rid the world of Jews and destroy Israel as a state. Iran launched a mass attack just recently with murderous intent of killing 10s of thousands of civilians. Israel spent $1 billion on defending the attack! At the same time Hezbollah also attacked Israel and even the Houthis sent a few cruise missiles Israel's way. Please tell me any nation that wouldn't view a mass attack from multiple states surrounding it as genocidal.

Also, I can't help noticing your lack of mentioning of the thousands upon thousands of Gazan civilians that Hamas has either killed through failed rocket attacks or murdered. For some reason this is never brought up as an issue. Neither is the much larger scale genocide committed by Assad against Palestinian civilians over 5 whole years.

Ok, how many Israeli civilians has Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran as a collective with Qatar providing financial backing "genocided"?

 

[Zidane98]

I've said on many, many occasions that I consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation.

I'm more than happy for anyone who's committed a war crime to be dragged before the ICC and receive the harshest possible sentence irrespective of who they represent.

All the things that people claim Hamas would do if they could - e.g. genocide, brag about killing civilians and such - the IDF and members of the Israeli government are actually doing. You understand this, right?

Ah the old but Hamas is just a terrorist organisation.


Newsflash - it isnt just a terrorist organisation. It is the official government of Gaza strip, has access to the Gazan economy, has financial backing from Qatar and also has Iran backing it.


Likening Hamas to a terrorist insurgency is simply a dishonest characterisation of them.


I don't believe Hamas will ever be accountable to the international legal system, for them total control over Gaza is maintained by continuing to wage war against Israel. They declared a truce in 2022, agreed not to attack Israel. I would rather the ICC go after Iran and/or whoever in the Israeli leadership are ordering a disproportionate response in the war against Hamas/Iran/Hezbollah.

 

[jason_recliner]

With over 1000 + failed rocket attacks that number conservatively is 5000+, likely a whole lot more.

Every failed Hamas rocket kills 5+ Gazan civilians?

 

[faible]

No. There is a civilian death toll - look it up if you care.


Hard to argue against hard facts such as this!

Consider the densely packed civilian population of 2,000,000, the tonnage of bombs and missiles dropped by Israel, and the estimates that 60% of buildings are damaged. The civilian death toll is entirely credible and may even be adjusted up at the end of the invasion. If it's adjusted down, it won't be by much.

According to Zidane and to summarise;

Gaza Ministry of Health reports ~ 34,000 dead.

This figure cannot be trusted because Hamas.
This figure also includes 10,000 - 15,000 Hamas fighters (where Israel appears to claim any male over 16 is Hamas).
This figure also includes 10,000 Gazans killed by Hamas.

So really, Israel hasn't killed anyone at all despite dropping tens of thousands of tonnes of explosives on a densely populated, urbanised area full of civilians.

 

[Zidane98]

Ok, how many Israeli civilians has Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran as a collective with Qatar providing financial backing "genocided"?

You'd have to get the figures from failed rocket attacks in Gaza for an accurate representation. I have provided that for you in the 2022 "war) that went for 3 days for which numbers were provided. There is no reporting on how many Gazan civilians Hamas has genocided through failed rocket attacks since Oct 7 as they are the ones in control of this information.

 

[Zidane98]

Every failed Hamas rocket kills 5+ Gazan civilians?

2022 Gaza–Israel clashes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

14 civilians killed in just 3 days during this clash from a couple of hundred fired.


How many do you think were killed after 15,000 were fired over 7 months?

And more to the point why is this something you have not looked into?

 

[faible]

You are absolutely cooked. That total number includes Hamas fighters (at least 10,000 plus killed) and all civilians Hamas has killed with their own hands. With over 1000 + failed rocket attacks that number conservatively is 5000+, likely a whole lot more.

Thanks for admitting to repeating Hamas propaganda.


Out of interest how much death and destruction do you believe 1000 + failed rocket attacks in Gaza has caused? Have you bothered to even look into it or are you too deep into Hamas propaganda to care?

Here's some numbers for you Zidane.

Israel's military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say

After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in history, experts say.

apnews.com

Gaza is home to ~ 2.2 million people (in an area around the size of metro Geelong from memory).

It's estimated that by January approximately 1/3 of all buildings in Gaza had been damaged or destroyed (Germany was ~ 10% during WW2 for reference).

The IDF by January had conducted ~ 22,000 strikes in Gaza.

Do you think more people have died due to failed Hamas rocket attacks, or IDF strikes?

1000 failed rockets

vs

22,000 strikes

(By January. It's now May)

 

[Jazny]

IDF have killed 40x as many civilians, so they are 40x more genocidal than Hamas.

That's a childlike understanding of genocide Why did you even say that? Do you know what genocide is?

Also, it's not true unless you count all Hamas combatants as Civilians and every death in Gaza is caused by Israel and they did it deliberately knowing they were civilians with no military justification. We know Hamas are counting at least 500 civilian deaths in Gaza that they or other Palestinian militants caused as civilians killed by Israel, despite all the evidence that the Al-Ahli bombing was not done by Israel.

How many Israeli civilians has Hamas killed? How many Palestinian civilians has IDF killed? Which one is more genocidal?

Hamas by far is more genocidal. They actually have a stated goal of genocide and they carry out attacks aimed at causing genocide, deliberately. They have no military justification for the targets they choose, often civilians, and have killed them in the most disgusting brutal ways. Every rocket they fire is a war crime, if they cared about such things.

If Israel was as genocidal as Hamas, with the weapons and military superiority they have, Gaza and Palestinians would not exist anymore.

 

[Zidane98]

Here's some numbers for you Zidane.

Israel's military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say

After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in history, experts say.

apnews.com

Gaza is home to ~ 2.2 million people (in an area around the size of metro Geelong from memory).

It's estimated that by January approximately 1/3 of all buildings in Gaza had been damaged or destroyed (Germany was ~ 10% during WW2 for reference).

The IDF by January had conducted ~ 22,000 strikes in Gaza.

Do you think more people have died due to failed Hamas rocket attacks, or IDF strikes?

1000 failed rockets

vs

22,000 strikes

(By January. It's now May)

Her's where you do this thing where you go for the strawman (in this case claiming I said more were killed by failed rocket strikes which not what I said) when all I did was show that your claim of 34,049 civilians being murdered was false.

You won't get any disagreement from me that Israel has acted in a disproportionate way, they should be held accountable in a war crimes tribunal to hammer home the message that restraint is needed when responding to war being declared on a state. It is what it is - a response to Hamas/Iran/Hezbollah attacking the state of Israel.

I believe the way Ukraine responds is appropriate. Ukraine has been suffering genocide at the hands of Russians almost perennially throughtout its existence. Its response has been targeted at the Russian military complex and gathering diplomatic support. As far as I can tell very few civilians have been killed in Ukranian action against Russians.

If Ukranians went into Russia and regularly murdered Russian civilians as a means of "resistance" I believe Ukraine would have next to no support now, hence the position Hamas finds itself in.

 

[Zidane98]

According to Zidane and to summarise;

Gaza Ministry of Health reports ~ 34,000 dead.

This figure cannot be trusted because Hamas.
This figure also includes 10,000 - 15,000 Hamas fighters (where Israel appears to claim any male over 16 is Hamas).
This figure also includes 10,000 Gazans killed by Hamas.

So really, Israel hasn't killed anyone at all despite dropping tens of thousands of tonnes of explosives on a densely populated, urbanised area full of civilians.

Is this the best you can respond with?


Expected better from a poster of your standing.

 

[jason_recliner]

2022 Gaza–Israel clashes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

14 civilians killed in just 3 days during this clash from a couple of hundred fired.


How many do you think were killed after 15,000 were fired over 7 months?

And more to the point why is this something you have not looked into?

You can't reasonably extrapolate like that. It's completely ridiculous and has no basis in anything realistic.

You don't answer any questions, you just throw out pointless nonsense in an attempt to defend the indefensible. I don't know why you bother.

I'll answer for you:
Israeli civilians killed = 1,000ish (9.5m population)
Palestinian civilians killed= 30,000ish (2m population)

Hamas is a criminal terrorist organisation with no interest in the welfare of Palestinians. They aren't going to stop. Only Israel can stop the mass-murder. When you consider Israel's history, it amazes me they aren't more sensitive to war crimes, and aren't world leaders in human rights and international criminal justice (like the Germans have become).

 

[Zidane98]

You can't reasonably extrapolate like that. That's completely ridiculous.

You don't answer any questions, you just throw out pointless nonsense in an attempt to defend the indefensible. I don't know why you bother.

I'll answer for you:
Israeli civilians killed = 1,000ish (9.5m population)
Palestinian civilians killed= 30,000ish (2m population)

Hamas is a criminal terrorist organisation with no interest in the welfare of Palestinians. They aren't going to stop. Only Israel can stop the mass-murder. When you consider Israel's history, it amazes me they aren't more sensitive to war crimes, world leaders in human rights and international criminal justice (like the Germans have become).

Again, you have included all Hamas fighters killed in your figures.


You've also included those killed by Hamas and attributed them to Israel. Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran backed financially by Qatar is a huge threat to the existence of Israel whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I suspect if all of those actors declared a truce with Israel and promised to never attack again we'd have no war at all.

 

[Zidane98]

Your Israel numbers include IDF fighters killed.

Do they? Where in this conversation did I claim that?


How many Gazan civilians do you believe Hamas has killed in the war yourself?

 

[jason_recliner]

If Israel was as genocidal as Hamas, with the weapons and military superiority they have, Gaza and Palestinians would not exist anymore.

30,000 Gazan civilians and much of Palestine do not exist any more.

 

[Bostonian]

At this stage you have to wonder do either of the two combatants actually want peace or a solution.

What's Hamas end game now?

They ****ed around and found out, now what?