Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Jello_B]

No worries, Jello.

How do you square away what Russia has done on other regions? Grozny etc… I don’t disagree with a lot you wrote, anyone that thinks that “much Russia just wanted to kill Ukrainians” isn’t adding much. But I don’t think Putin is wholesome in his behaviour. He seems like a murderous power hungry dictator. Some good some bad.

 

[Jello_B]

Actually if they took in palestinians it could be an advantage for Russia (arm them and send them into Ukraine as fresh meat while seeming to help a humanitarian crisis) - you'd have to start by granting Russian citizenship so then they are subject to the same conscription rules... (and making monitoring of what happened difficult)

Man that’s pretty dark, have they not suffered enough?

 

[Jello_B]

Honestly can't be arsed. Should be an exam based on all 3 threads before gaining access to take part. If you can avoid repeating the same disproven talking points, then there's klaxons and the gates open.

Some lie words/phrases include "coup", "civil war" and "language repression" but there's plenty more. But the details are well back within these threads.

Hey there mate, I’m interested in your view on a couple of their talking points. By the way I’ll declare my conflict and knowledge as I have family from both regions.
As far as I’m aware and why I find the discussion worthwhile is the following:
Ukraine did try and change the language in eastern Ukraine. I don’t see this as a big deal, but they did it.
NATO have “defensive” arsenal positioned “close enough” to Russia, and the comparison to the US reaction to Cuba is reasonable.
Russia did suggest their joining of NATO and were “laughed off”. Imagine if that had happened.
The coup or whatever did happen, anyone can agree or disagree on why it happened, and personally what I have read I think it was just, but it happened.
Russia have offered to negotiate, albeit they want to keep their claimed territories, but is is Ukraine who are not willing.
From what I know of Russia, yes the people feel the sanctions but they adapt. People from Australia (of which sadly we are under the thumb of the US for good and bad), will struggle to understand that the Russians would rather eat dirt then submit to the West. The sanctions won’t dissuade them. People on here saying this that and the other about Russians without understanding their psyche come from a different culture.

 

[Jello_B]

Alot of the people in this thread angry at Israels response are the same people who celebrated when Joe Biden won the election....

Sometimes you just gotta accept the fact you bet on the wrong horse I suppose

Wrong thread dude

 

[Aussie in exile]

To be provided with a military uniform on arrival and on the frontlines within 2 months.

That could well happen and told they will given a Russian passport on their return from the front line.
The point they will miss out on is very few if any will return from the from line. They will just be cannon fodder

 

[Zidane98]

Hey there mate, I’m interested in your view on a couple of their talking points. By the way I’ll declare my conflict and knowledge as I have family from both regions.
As far as I’m aware and why I find the discussion worthwhile is the following:
Ukraine did try and change the language in eastern Ukraine. I don’t see this as a big deal, but they did it.
NATO have “defensive” arsenal positioned “close enough” to Russia, and the comparison to the US reaction to Cuba is reasonable.
Russia did suggest their joining of NATO and were “laughed off”. Imagine if that had happened.
The coup or whatever did happen, anyone can agree or disagree on why it happened, and personally what I have read I think it was just, but it happened.
Russia have offered to negotiate, albeit they want to keep their claimed territories, but is is Ukraine who are not willing.
From what I know of Russia, yes the people feel the sanctions but they adapt. People from Australia (of which sadly we are under the thumb of the US for good and bad), will struggle to understand that the Russians would rather eat dirt then submit to the West. The sanctions won’t dissuade them. People on here saying this that and the other about Russians without understanding their psyche come from a different culture.

All Ukraine did was made Ukranian the official language of Ukraine. Citizens are free to converse in any language they want whether it be Russian, Arabic, Chinese or Italian.

The suggestion that it was changed for Eastern Ukraine is a falsehood. Even the ICJ dismissed completely Russian claims.

 

[Jello_B]

Absolute lie

Bidens support is 100% apart of this, if not the main part

No I mean you are talking about Israel and Biden when this is the Ukraine - Russia thread. Sorry have I missed the connection you are trying to make?

 

[Jello_B]

All Ukraine did was made Ukranian the official language of Ukraine. Citizens are free to converse in any language they want whether it be Russian, Arabic, Chinese or Italian.

The suggestion that it was changed for Eastern Ukraine is a falsehood. Even the ICJ dismissed completely Russian claims.

Sure, not saying it was wrong, just saying that there was a change. Certainly not worth starting a war over.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

No I mean you are talking about Israel and Biden when this is the Ukraine - Russia thread. Sorry have I missed the connection you are trying to make?

Haha true . Thanks for the heads up

 

[Jello_B]

Haha true . Thanks for the heads up

All good mate

 

[Zidane98]

Sure, not saying it was wrong, just saying that there was a change. Certainly not worth starting a war over.

It was for the entire country. Not just Eastern Ukraine

We don't see Ukraine claiming discrimination because Ukrainian isn't an official language in Russia.

There is a significant Ukranian speaking population in the Independent People's Republic of Belgorod.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Man that’s pretty dark, have they not suffered enough?

yeah of course its dark, which puts it right up Putins alley.

 

[wannabejack]

All Ukraine did was made Ukranian the official language of Ukraine. Citizens are free to converse in any language they want whether it be Russian, Arabic, Chinese or Italian.

The suggestion that it was changed for Eastern Ukraine is a falsehood. Even the ICJ dismissed completely Russian claims.

And Hungarian.
Berehove, just 7 kilometers from the Hungarian border, is the population hub for Ukraine's ethnic Hungarian minority of roughly 100,000 people. The street signs are written in both languages, Hungarian flags fly alongside Ukrainian and EU flags on government buildings, and a monument to a Hungarian national hero stands near the regional administration headquarters.

 

[Jello_B]

It was for the entire country. Not just Eastern Ukraine

We don't see Ukraine claiming discrimination because Ukrainian isn't an official language in Russia.

There is a significant Ukranian speaking population in the Independent People's Republic of Belgorod.

Sure, but I think Russias main issue is with the Eastern part of Ukraine. Anyway we are agreeing, there was a language direction chnage

 

[Aussie in exile]

Sure, but I think Russias main issue is with the Eastern part of Ukraine. Anyway we are agreeing, there was a language direction chnage

There is no value for any country to speak Russian accept Russia itself
English and or Spanish should be the 2nd language of any forward thinking country in non English or Spanish speaking countries.

 

[Nothing]

There is no value for any country to speak Russian accept Russia itself
English and or Spanish should be the 2nd language of any forward thinking country in non English or Spanish speaking countries.

Mandarin

 

[Jello_B]

Mandarin

Hi Xi

 

[Jello_B]

There is no value for any country to speak Russian accept Russia itself
English and or Spanish should be the 2nd language of any forward thinking country in non English or Spanish speaking countries.

Carn

 

[Visions]

To be both a Russian diehard apologist but not be willing to accept the Russian lifestyle.

These people are total idiots.

 

[Baldur]

Otherwise known as the "Official vatnik & tankie" thread.

Maybe there needs to be another thread called "Justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine".
Would save the repetition in this thread.

All the vatnik minded could go to their own little echo chamber and let the adults talk here. But then, oh no what have we done, created a bigfooty Truth Social. Is this a good or bad idea, hell if I know, but it would make my reading of this thread more enjoyable.

 

[Crankyhawk]

All the vatnik minded could go to their own little echo chamber and let the adults talk here. But then, oh no what have we done, created a bigfooty Truth Social. Is this a good or bad idea, hell if I know, but it would make my reading of this thread more enjoyable.

I don’t think we should be creating echo chambers. That allows the crazy to fester unchallenged

 

[jatz14]

As the old saying goes, wars start when politics become exhausted. Whether you or I agree or not, Putin felt he'd exhausted every single political option when he invaded. Unless we go back and examine what political options he did take, no common understanding can occur and peace is as far away as ever.

It's usually not an easy thing to define the genesis of a conflict, but in this case, I don't think it's difficult at all.

For those of us who are old enough to remember, there's a very strong case to say Gorbachev did more for the benefit of humanity than any other person who lived in the 20C. Prostrated himself before the West to the utter horror of most of his countrymen, inflicted economic and social chaos on them, brought the entire Soviet bloc to the verge of ruin.

The USSR could have bumbled along poorly for decades longer, maybe even had a revival despite having destroyed much of their credibility with their own people, but he realised something had to change and he had the power to do it.

There was such a wonderful feeling all around the world. The Cold War was over - the future was gonna be bright, prosperous and peaceful, surely?

So how did the West thank Gorbachev and Russia by extension?

We went from agreeing not to move NATO 'an inch east of Germany' to the era of Clinton enormous NATO expansion (to combat who and what exactly?), to now having a nuke capable missile base in Poland 100km from the Russian border and wanting to install more in Ukraine. The same Western Alliance who felt it was acceptable to bring the world to the brink of nuclear war over missiles in Cuba being too close to America, has zero qualms about doing the exact same thing to Russia except even closer and effectively saying - 'what are you gonna do about it?'

Putin tried to join NATO (naively thinking it could evolve to be something more than an entirely anti-Russian organisation now the USSR had fallen), he's made endless speeches publicly and privately about red lines and not militarising his borders or neighbours, leaving major powers to their own sphere of influence etc. - what good have any of his political attempts for different outcomes done?

Which political option hadn't he already exhausted?

The same bloke who got letters every other day from family members of the 14,000 people killed in the Donbass during Ukraine's 8yr civil war? A war we never used to hear about in the media because everything about it was murky and impossible to put into context for a Western audience without a half hour history lesson to begin.

These days our media have conveniently fixed the need for a history lesson by entirely removing all the Russian context from the sotry.

War is the worst of choices, but the West has gone in up to its neck for far less than what caused Putin to act.





And yet, every time he's been asked, since the outset of the conflict, Putin has said Russia is willing to sit down for peace talks.

When you ask Zelensky, he says, after we take back the Donbass and Crimea, we might think about it.

Is Putin really the sole impediment to peace?

Yes.

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[Baldur]

I don’t think we should be creating echo chambers. That allows the crazy to fester unchallenged

I don’t disagree with you. Somebody should argue with crazy, but I have neither the wish nor inclination to do it myself. As a young man I learnt a painfill lesson, "dont **** crazy".

 

[Andre]

As the old saying goes, wars start when politics become exhausted. Whether you or I agree or not, Putin felt he'd exhausted every single political option when he invaded. Unless we go back and examine what political options he did take, no common understanding can occur and peace is as far away as ever.

It's usually not an easy thing to define the genesis of a conflict, but in this case, I don't think it's difficult at all.

For those of us who are old enough to remember, there's a very strong case to say Gorbachev did more for the benefit of humanity than any other person who lived in the 20C. Prostrated himself before the West to the utter horror of most of his countrymen, inflicted economic and social chaos on them, brought the entire Soviet bloc to the verge of ruin.

The USSR could have bumbled along poorly for decades longer, maybe even had a revival despite having destroyed much of their credibility with their own people, but he realised something had to change and he had the power to do it.

There was such a wonderful feeling all around the world. The Cold War was over - the future was gonna be bright, prosperous and peaceful, surely?

So how did the West thank Gorbachev and Russia by extension?

We went from agreeing not to move NATO 'an inch east of Germany' to the era of Clinton enormous NATO expansion (to combat who and what exactly?), to now having a nuke capable missile base in Poland 100km from the Russian border and wanting to install more in Ukraine. The same Western Alliance who felt it was acceptable to bring the world to the brink of nuclear war over missiles in Cuba being too close to America, has zero qualms about doing the exact same thing to Russia except even closer and effectively saying - 'what are you gonna do about it?'

Putin tried to join NATO (naively thinking it could evolve to be something more than an entirely anti-Russian organisation now the USSR had fallen), he's made endless speeches publicly and privately about red lines and not militarising his borders or neighbours, leaving major powers to their own sphere of influence etc. - what good have any of his political attempts for different outcomes done?

Which political option hadn't he already exhausted?

The same bloke who got letters every other day from family members of the 14,000 people killed in the Donbass during Ukraine's 8yr civil war? A war we never used to hear about in the media because everything about it was murky and impossible to put into context for a Western audience without a half hour history lesson to begin.

These days our media have conveniently fixed the need for a history lesson by entirely removing all the Russian context from the sotry.

War is the worst of choices, but the West has gone in up to its neck for far less than what caused Putin to act.





And yet, every time he's been asked, since the outset of the conflict, Putin has said Russia is willing to sit down for peace talks.

When you ask Zelensky, he says, after we take back the Donbass and Crimea, we might think about it.

Is Putin really the sole impediment to peace?

Political option to do what exactly? If Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova join NATO, do you seriously think NATO is then going to invade Russia? Europe was heavily dependent on Russia oil & gas and was more than willing to have Western companies there and vice versa. All that those countries around Russia joining NATO and the EU does, as far as a threat, is to show dictatorships don't lead to as good a country as democracy does. Now yes THAT is a threat to Putin, but not a justification for war.

If war is justified if politics doesn't work, mean that NATO is justified to invade Russia if asking them nicely to leave doesn't work? If not, why is one 'exhaustion of politics' valid and not another? Maybe it's just war for preservation of your own government isn't justified. The reality is, if Russia left Ukraine (, Georgia and Moldova) tomorrow and they all joined the EU and NATO, Russia as a country would continue to exist. Putin may be rolled, but despite his thinking so, he's not Russia.

As for the Irony of praising Gorbachev, when Putin wants to undo everything he did and Putin despised him and everything he did.

This comes down simply to, the rest of the Empires of Europe got out of the colonial conquest 'game' after the Second world war, with only Russia yet to each the point the rest of the world did three quarters of a century ago.

 

[jatz14]

Mandarin

Why?

Some pan Asian events in Asia are held in English, as it's the most common, common language. They aren't held in Mandarin.

The same way that in India, people from different regions of the country often have to converse in English.

No one in Asia, outside Chinese speaking regions is doing anything in Mandarin.

Most people in most Asian countries have at least a smattering of English skills and relatively few speak Mandarin at any level.

That China is becoming powerful doesn't mean that the conditions for Mandarin becoming a universal language have, or will, emerge.

Any way, waaay of topic.

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