We have MAJOR issues

[Visions]

Our delivery and decision making into our forward line was a huge issue tonight. Always bombing it to Cloke who had 2 or 3 opponents on him, and when he did mark it, his standard goalkicking yips shone through (a half decent kick would have put 4 of his 5 shots away). This had the other disadvantage where every opposition kick in after a behind then bypasses our zone setup with ease.

We need other options and need to instruct players to lower their eyes when delivering.

 

[Nicco_jj]

Irrespective of your views as to the importance of coaching ability, we wil not make the final 8 in 2013.

I am sick of accepting mediocrity when it comes to our club. We gone backwards at a rapid rate since 2011!

More importantly most other team's do not have our resources. So you are simply not comparing LIKE with LIKE.

It is all about what you can EXTRACT with rersources that you have available at a specific point in time.

Right now we - our coaches (both singular and collective) - are extracting just about JACK SH...T!



We will not make the 8 in 2012

I'm not saying that we should accept poor performance. I'm saying that:
1. All hope is not lost. Yet maybe it is and I'm just being silly... who knows. and;
2. We aren't on the bottom of the ladder, and it is exceptionally hard to be "up" for a long time.

Geelong, being one of the greatest teams ever, has not won 2 flags in a row. Hawks have won 1 in the last 5 years, as has Collingwood. Hawks should have won 2, as should we have.

At the end of the day, footy is a bloody tough team sport. Being a good team in 2011 is irrelevant. The game has changed since then. Look at the way we dismantled Geelong and St. Kilda in 2010... They were the dominant teams of the previous 2 years. We destroyed both of them. 2011 we had an excellent year on the coat-tails of that year. But we couldn't beat Geelong, and we carried injuries in to the grand final.
2012 was average at best and we still made it to the prelim.

I'm hoping we don't flop, but at the end of the day if we do, we're probably due for one or 2 average years. Get some more top 20 draft picks and we'll be back to a top 2 team, you'd think.

But that's the nature of footy. Who knows.

The other thing I'm saying is that if every club sacked it's staff after not making a grand final, 16 teams would have new coaches each year.
We made a prelim in our first year under Nathan, even though we weren't that good and were injured as buggery. Give him this year and 2014. If we are still having the same issues, then its new coach time. Not right now.

 

[blaze036]

I haven't been a dids fan in 2013, but i think with our terrible performances it's opened a door for him to have 1 last crack. Give him the next 3 games and after those 3 decide if we take him to September or giving him the final tap on the shoulder.

 

[Krueger]

I have major concerns. In my opinion the players do not respect bucks as a coach. I believe that bucks has lost faith in his coaching ability. We are not tackling hard enough and there is not much pressure. I hate to say it but bucks is not a good coach. Our team that played tonight should of won by 5 goals. They were disgraceful especially some if there effets. I have no idea what's bucks is game plan is I'm not even sure the players know but I think they must think it sucks.

Our gameplan went out the window at the end of 2011. What we have seen since apart from the odd flash of brilliance is a complete and utter joke. And your right, Bucks has NFI what he is doing. If we dont finish top 8 as a minimum he should be SACKED and Edddie McGuire issue a public apology to the supporters for making one of the biggest mistakes in Collingwoods history.

 

[jmac70]

It is hard not be angry about last night but as a supporter you have to take the good times with the bad. I have followed the Pies for nearly 40 years and have seen my fair share of heartache. The worst thing you can do is to overreact with calls to sack the coach. Some people on this board need to take a look at the way the Bombers have stuck by their club. At the moment it is hard to see us challenging this year but we have a lot of kids coming through and some gun players to return. One thing is certain, Bucks will do everything in his power to turn this around as will our players.

Side by side.

 

[Camo1902]

I'm the first to admit to masking over the cracks, and blaming injuries. As a result I have over simplified things to "bring back Ball and Beams, frees up Pendles and Swan and we will be okay". Time to take my blinkers off.

Is it work rate, desire, system? I'm not sure exactly but it's evident that a whole lot more than merely injuries is the cause for our limping start to the year.

You look at the Cats/Hawks and the way their systems and culture (driven by their senior blokes) allow the kids to come in to play a role and shine. The way the burden is spread across the board. Where is that with us right now, we had that quality but its vanishing before our eyes? Too much being left to too few at the Pies right now, and I will no longer accept that its merely a result of injury.

This is purely my opinion and I will never jump off my beloved Pies or start potting individuals or coaches, but its becoming evident that something bigger than the return of a couple of players needs to happen!

 

[dubber]

I think we also have to some perspective about this loss. Ross Lyon along with Clarkson is one of the best strategists of the modern game. Ross invented the forward press that we adopted. I fully think that last night we lost in part to our skills but it was also the implied pressure that was being put on by freo.
Ross exploited our weakness of not having cover for small speedy types, his players executed his game plan to good effect & Played more aggressively which I think took us off guard.

Buckley is still a coach on L plates who will and should get better with experience. Well I hope so anyway

 

[muckypup]

With Geelong and Sydney to come, forget about top 4. 2013 Premiership died tonight literally. Collingwood need to concentrate on actually getting things right on field first. They need to fix a few major problems before we can aim for top 4 again.

Fremantle are a good footy team. Nothing to be ashamed of losing to us. I did think Bucks was out coached last night but problems are not terminal ... yet.

More to learn ... tidy up and move on.

 

[Angelus512]

.

Our forwards - Cloke and thats it, no plan B, and if he gets held we just don't get anyone front & centre. The ball just comes out far too quickly and that puts pressure on our backs who need to work as a team of 4 or 5 to win the ball.

Getting ride of Dawes looks VERY stupid at this point. He wasn't that good in his last year but he was a decent enough foil. I can't recall of the top of my head the last time Q-Lynch was "in" the forward line? Seem's he's always rucking or roaming around in mid.

Need a 2nd bit man inside the forward 50 no doubt in my mind.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I'm reserving judgement until Luke Ball comes back.

Look at 2010 and 2011.

Now look at 2012 and 2013.

What the difference? Luke Ball. Is it a good thing that a 29 year old midfielder is that important to our side? That's another debate completely, but I still think this side will look completely different when Ball is there.

My only issue with Buckey right now, is that I believe he built a gameplan around Luke Ball and Clinton Young being there, which is clearly naive.

I still hold firm that it s a player problem. Buckley wouldn't be getting that pissed in the box if they were following the gameplan and still losing.

You can't tell me the gameplan is to not run, give your opponent plenty of space and allow the opposition to outnumber us at every contest. Because it isn't. I think Buckley's gameplan is beyond the players at his disposal right now, and maybe he needs to find a way to try something this list is more capable of.

I said last year that we might need to suffer a bit while Buckley builds the list HE wants. You can see through the recruitment of players like Elliott, Dwyer, Martin, Broomhead, Paine, etc the sort of list that Bucks wants to build, but unfortunately, he has expectations to maintain while also trying to do what is essentially a stealth rebuild.

If the problem is that the players aren't on board with him, then its still a player problem. He's the coach, and they've known he was going or be the coach since 2009. They should have known what to expect from then. These are gown adults being paid shitloads of money, if they don't want to play for Collingwood then f**k off.

Having said that, we ended up basically losing by that shitty first quarter. I think Shaw's stupidity was more costly than many realise. Both shit frees came in the closing minute of the first and second quarter giving Freo the momentum they needed going into those breaks. Combined with more inaccurate kicking at crucial times, and you make it hard on yourself.

 

[Angelus512]

Clearly massive internal player issues at the club. Brought on by what? Who knows but here are some guesses.

A) Leading teams (as somebody who functions in a professional office environment I can tell you the concept of "feedback" is taken WAY too far in society these days and its often a cloak used to disguise unbridled bitching excused as "feedback")

B) Buckley. Hate to say it but if the players are at each other its either because of Buckley or he doesn't have the personal relationships to stop them.

If Malthouse were coach does anybody doubt he has the personal relationships at such a level he could bring them back in line?

Thinking of it from a logical POV most of these players are not "mature". Thats BS. They mostly range from 20-30. They had this old man coach who functioned like a father in many ways and they saw him get pushed out when he clearly expressed desire to stay and coach more.
Whats more was he was doing ok at the time.

Thats got to be hard to forget. If he was doing badly and he was "removed" thats another thing because it can be understood and rationalised. The way it went down was weird and bound to produce problems.

 

[PieNSauce]

I'm gutted by what I saw last night in the 1st and last quarters. I'm certainly not giving up all hope for 2013 but you'd have to concede that we're just not playing up to standard and our finals aspirations are fading fast. The next couple of weeks are unlikely to improve our chances based on the way we're playing and I suspect it's time for the match committee to take a very tough stand. It does my head in to think that it was a guy like JT who showed up a significant number of our players and whatever they have in their heads needs to be turned around fast. How the hell can a side like Freo pretty much keep the ball out of our players hands for an entire quarter? Did our guys walk to Perth for this match? As I said, I'm gutted!

 

[PieNSauce]

Clearly massive internal player issues at the club. Brought on by what? Who knows but here are some guesses.

A) Leading teams (as somebody who functions in a professional office environment I can tell you the concept of "feedback" is taken WAY too far in society these days and its often a cloak used to disguise unbridled bitching excused as "feedback")

B) Buckley. Hate to say it but if the players are at each other its either because of Buckley or he doesn't have the personal relationships to stop them.

If Malthouse were coach does anybody doubt he has the personal relationships at such a level he could bring them back in line?

Thinking of it from a logical POV most of these players are not "mature". Thats BS. They mostly range from 20-30. They had this old man coach who functioned like a father in many ways and they saw him get pushed out when he clearly expressed desire to stay and coach more.
Whats more was he was doing ok at the time.

Thats got to be hard to forget. If he was doing badly and he was "removed" thats another thing because it can be understood and rationalised. The way it went down was weird and bound to produce problems.

Yes you'd have to say that Mick has a lot to answer for walking out on the club the way he did and refusing to mentor Bucks as he signed up to do. We are now in a position with a coach who has pretty much had to learn from scratch without the benefit of that mentoring and in the face of his predecessor doing all that he could to sabotage relationships with the players. Thank god he's now at Carlton is all I can say.

 

[jerry springer]

I know alot if people saying tony shaw was a shit coach but tony did not have the talent like bucks has which makes it even worse for bucks. Anyway jolly is struggling and lynch had a shocker too. I still love the pies and enjoyed the last 7 years of making finals but I honestly think we will finish with around 11 wins this year and will miss the 8! If we miss finals next year bucks won't be coaching in 2015

Shaw was a average coach with a average side but he was actually quite innovative in some things,

Buckley on the other hand likes to kick backwards to switch

 

[larrikan]

What is the playing group culture of the Collingwood Football Club? Side by side we stick together?

Bucks 'the players motivate themselves leading teams dogma'' is not working. We have a group of selfish individuals who do not play to structures and rely on others to do their work. The players work ethic for the team is non-existent. And we make excuses for them. Swan is eccentric. Shaw is a different cat. Blah blah blah. It was interesting to read the Christensen article in the HSun last week about the Geelong culture. Young players are told play the Geelong way or leave.

Daisy, Pendles, Jolly, Cloke, Ball, Swan, Maxwell should stop all media commitments and get back to being footballers. What happened this week with Daisy and Jolly is leading teams sheeet being played out in the media. This example bleeds through the group of non performing players - Fasolo. How many other clubs have this many players out there pretending to be consistent stars of the game.

Where's the fighting spirit?

BF is full of excuses for our mighty club but its a team game and the best 22 each week must want to play for each other and work hard to fill in holes and back up teammates. The young players must learn its a requirement of the club like Sydney and Geelong do. Whatever we learn about bonding in Utah is lost out on the park. Who's to blame?

I remember a few years ago talking to Bucks at the Lexus Centre and commenting on the brilliant new facilities. He said " yeah, maybe too good". A throw away line is now resonating with me. Maybe our players do get it too easy.

I don't know how playing group culture can be turned around without a solid turnover of the list. It requires players to buy into the program. Right now, our boys are not playing as a TEAM.

 

[Checkside35]

Hawthorns Game Plan.
Control the ball in defense run forward of the ball at a manic rate and play on before any opposition mans you up. They play a fast pace game, not necessarily foot speed but the way they play on and look to move it forward.
They have also adopted our "old" forward pressure style in D50 when they don't have the pill.
They are also the ultimate extractors of the ball from stoppages and center clearances.

1) Hawthorn can roll the dice and spread like mad from stoppages because they back their teammates in to win the ball. Most of the times they do and it looks great. When sides break even or win the stoppages, they get caught out getting ahead of the ball and get rolled on the break. We aren't doing that well at stoppages so we can't spread with confidence. Ball and Beams will help.
2) playing on and moving it quickly requires smart movement up the ground by half forwards and mids who have rolled up. Atm, our HF are most likely the kids who aren't doing this. So a backman or mid who has got the footy needs to think and maintain possession by chipping it around, waiting for the right option. Lynch gets caught up the ground trying to create something. Bucks needs to forget this ruck change shit and leave him forward.
3) Unless sides are moulded around defensive and strangling teams, then most would want to follow Hawthorn's game style. Most don't have the amount of experience and available talent that Clarkson has on hand.

Bucks is plugging up holes at the moment. Ball, Beams, Young will make a difference. That's 3 players opposition coaches will have to plan for. That's 3 players who can and will influence the way the ball is moved forward.

 

[EXNICKS]

way too early to push the eject button.
what if we beat geelong next week?

ARSE!

 

[Magpie4Life]

way too early to push the eject button.
what if we beat geelong next week?

I totally agree. Most posters were happy with 4-5. We can still achieve that. Even 5-4. We just have to squeeze a win or two out of these next 2 games. Then we have an easy run to settle down, regain players, get back to form and get structures right.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I'm reserving judgement until Luke Ball comes back.

Look at 2010 and 2011.

Now look at 2012 and 2013.

What the difference? Luke Ball. .

Drawing false conclusions. There are plenty of other factors at play.

E.g
- 2010 and 2011 = Malthouse. 2012 and 2013 = Buckley.
- We played very good football until Jackson Paine got in the list and then we didn't. Is it his fault? No.
- The two years in recent history that we haven't had Irish players on our list have been our best. Does this mean that the fewer Irish on our list the better we play? No.
- Leigh Brown retired after 2011. Is our drop in form due to his absence? No.

The problem is that our players were made to look better than they were in 2010/11 because the game plan was exeptional. When it was figured out, our players have obviously come back to the pack. We just need to keep developing - both game plan AND players.

 

[Checkside35]

Drawing false conclusions. There are plenty of other factors at play.

E.g
- 2010 and 2011 = Malthouse. 2012 and 2013 = Buckley.
- We played very good football until Jackson Paine got in the list and then we didn't. Is it his fault? No.
- The two years in recent history that we haven't had Irish players on our list have been our best. Does this mean that the fewer Irish on our list the better we play? No.
- Leigh Brown retired after 2011. Is our drop in form due to his absence? No.

The problem is that our players were made to look better than they were in 2010/11 because the game plan was exeptional. When it was figured out, our players have obviously come back to the pack. We just need to keep developing - both game plan AND players.

And there we have it. Malthouse was totally uncompromising when it came to the execution of a plan. You did what he said, winning or losing or it it was GTFO! Don't go up the guts because we don't have the talent to do that. Out of his mouth. Remember his love for big arse mids who would get smashed by faster mids? Took him a while and a few early operations in 2005 to give that one away, if you know what I mean?
Last night I felt crook when watching the first quarter but I also remember seeing that quite a few times during Malthouse's reign. Remember the words " WTF is he doing leaving X there, why the f... Would you hit the boundary when here are blokes free in the guts, why do we keep going to the pockets, when we need goals?"
Many in this forum would have been talking about the simplicity of the boundary gameplan and a lack of plan B until we took the flag in 2010. All of a sudden, MM is a genius. In all honesty, MM's plan was exposed in the drawn GF and the Saints were knackered in the second. Credit to whoever got the Pies up for the replay and it wasn't gameplan or coaching. Business end of 2011 and we fell over.

 

[chestbrah]

We need to get some class back into our midfield rotation. Too much is getting left for too few. I long for the days when I would look and see Pendles and Swan on the wing/HFF and think christ, only to look up and see Beamsy Ball and Sidey in the guts. Currently we have Pendles and Swan carrying the entire department, Sidey looks disinterested half the time, and the other two fellas injured. If we can spread the legs a bit more, throw a fit Clinton Young on one wing and a fit Daisy on the other voila.

 

[loki04]

I haven't been a dids fan in 2013, but i think with our terrible performances it's opened a door for him to have 1 last crack. Give him the next 3 games and after those 3 decide if we take him to September or giving him the final tap on the shoulder.

Clearly massive internal player issues at the club. Brought on by what? Who knows but here are some guesses.

A) Leading teams (as somebody who functions in a professional office environment I can tell you the concept of "feedback" is taken WAY too far in society these days and its often a cloak used to disguise unbridled bitching excused as "feedback")

B) Buckley. Hate to say it but if the players are at each other its either because of Buckley or he doesn't have the personal relationships to stop them.

If Malthouse were coach does anybody doubt he has the personal relationships at such a level he could bring them back in line?

Thinking of it from a logical POV most of these players are not "mature". Thats BS. They mostly range from 20-30. They had this old man coach who functioned like a father in many ways and they saw him get pushed out when he clearly expressed desire to stay and coach more.
Whats more was he was doing ok at the time.

Thats got to be hard to forget. If he was doing badly and he was "removed" thats another thing because it can be understood and rationalised. The way it went down was weird and bound to produce problems.

Spot on, unfortunately 1 rotten apple can ruin the bunch.

If we can see the team is not performing as it once did then the players would also be taking note and the faction who wanted to petition for MM to stay would be feeling vindicated by our current form.

This in turn can lend to back door bitching and putting doubt in other players heads ie undermining the coach.

Their is only really 2 ways to fix this and that is either rebuild the list or remove the coach and install a neutral coach not involved with the succession plan.
Personally I would rebuild and trade high, I think Ablett going to GC was a blessing in disguise for them as it gave them 2 1st rounders they shouldn't of had access too and allowed them to bolster their junior talent.

Also this director of coaching is a wank that the club went forward with to save face over MM refusing it, Eade is quite obviously having game plan input as our team uses tactics of his dogs sides of the 00's.

 

[dansa]

Now only those who say there is no gameplan, the gameplan sucks or there is no plan B need answer this question.

Can you explain Geelong and Hawthorn's Plan A & B?

Of course they can't.

The people who get on here after a few loses, saying there's no game plan, we wont make the 8, sack the coaching staff etc... are the same people who after a few wins start talking of dynasties.

 

[Scottabe_pendles]

A point here - I was at Subiaco yesterday and there was literally only once I can remember us getting the ball from back fifty to forward 50 cleanly -- once in a whole game we choked from the zone - badly.

 

[Frankie23]

I can take poor kicking, dropped marks, missed goals because a player never intentionally goes out to do that. A mistake is a mistake, move on...

However, I will not stand for a lack of effort and intensity. no matter how bad your skills, you can control this variable. the first half last night was disgusting and unacceptable. Is it the players? the game plan? To be honest I'm not sure yet, however there are serious issues at this football club that are no starting to show. We have players going at each other in the media, and it shows on-field, they are simply not playing for each other.

Will be intrigued to see Bucks on the couch this week and what he has to say, and more importantly our response next week. Season is on the line.