Wells Recruiting record

[foodles05]

Name another club that traded for a RFA -
Dont let your anger lead you to being an abusive twad

People are showing how much latitude afforded to Wells, when none is afforded to Scott

Name me a club that wouldn't have traded for Danger?

 

[foodles05]

winty the best negotiator has twice been smacked on RFA - so they are fails
richmond picks up a younger Forward for free thats the basis of comparison

in list management terms look at carlton
they are killing it, martin for free, a rfa for free, get geelong to hand deliver fogarty for a pack of chips

Two parts in list management and that is trading and recriuiting, and wells fails in trading
the caddy situation is testament to that

only team to do so, there is a reason

Yeah its been in place for milisecond and there is **** all data available to make definitive judgements. I guess you are not a scientist cause you would be laughed out of the room if you came with this sort of sample size and wanted to draw definitive conclusions!!

 

[winty]

1. Dangerfield is a fail as you are the best in the business and yet the only one who traded for a RFA (excluding cases to help players)
2. Henderson was dumped after 4 years service, i hardly call that a win for a first round pick
3. Stewart was a Scarlo find, and Blitz a guthrie find, without them these two would be elsewhere - not a wells win
4. Hamling showed why he was recruited, cant blame wells if the MC dont play him, but on recruitment it was a win
5. given the crap dumped on parson on this board, i am not sure how people are calling this a win now

Who out of Scarlo, Taylor and Lonergan would you have played Hamling ahead of?

 

[foodles05]

and the same geelong that has sent so many of its first round picks for a packet of chips

the comparison was in the last 12 months, and i think their picks ups this year for the cost have been exceptional

There you go cherry picking the data to suit your argument. I am so glad Geelong doesn't measure list management on a 12 month cycle like you want to here.

 

[foodles05]

you realize pick 21 was mutually exclusive in terms of the two transactions
ie we got unders for bundy
won on stanley

How in any rationale world could you possible suggest that pick 21 was unders based on what he produced for Brisbane. Retired having had a nothing career up there.

 

[00VicWard001]

Were they?

Linc is very obviously a good player - so Wells was correct to draft him. Hartman really showed signs of being a good player in the limited opportunities that he had. It was a real shame that he quit.

 

[Vdubs]

Why is Wells widely regarded as the best in the business?
Maybe like Jesus in Luke telling everybody that "no prophet is accepted in his hometown". Wells is heavily scrutinised and unfairly so, by our own supporters.
He picks gems.
Given where we finish every year since 2007, it is a credit to his selections that we are still in contention.

 

[Tony Barber]

The OP is an idiot.
And obviously young.

Wells started in 85 under Bill.

 

[AM]

Why is Wells widely regarded as the best in the business?
Maybe like Jesus in Luke telling everybody that "no prophet is accepted in his hometown". Wells is heavily scrutinised and unfairly so, by our own supporters.
He picks gems.
Given where we finish every year since 2007, it is a credit to his selections that we are still in contention.

In fairness he's had his misses and for a long time had an excellent development team working on the talent. Not saying he isn't accomplished btw.

 

[bulletproof]

The only way to judge a recruiters record is over long-term ladder positions.

 

[PhatBoy]

In fairness he's had his misses and for a long time had an excellent development team working on the talent. Not saying he isn't accomplished btw.

Everyone has.

There are literally two teams' worth of players on an AFL list at any one time. That means that at any given time, even at the very best club, there will be a) a few players who will never ever play a game, b) a few who might average 2-3 a year and rely on injuries to others to get a game, c) 15-16 that are looked on as the core of your side, d) another dozen or so who are competing for the last 6-7 spots on the team pending form fluctuations etc.

You can be the best recruiter in the world with a 100 per cent success rate and some of your selections will literally still never ever play a game of AFL football.

Wells' job at any given time isn't to pick up 6-10 players each off season to all play in our best 22. His job is to fill a couple of the gaps that we think we currently have, and pick up players that, in most cases, won't even be physically ready to play AFL football for at least another 12 months, who may or may not be able to play a roll for us when one of the established players retires or moves on but who also adds depth in the event that it is needed. Ie. He might draft a terrible ruckman late in a draft and everyone will look around and go "well what the hell was the point of that." But the counter would be "this kid was the last recognised ruckman in the draft, we could have taken a midfielder but we have 12 of them already so we will take an inferior player in the event that we do run out of ruckmen. Hopefully we won't."

That role will change again if and when we drop down the ladder.

 

[00VicWard001]

Everyone has.

There are literally two teams' worth of players on an AFL list at any one time. That means that at any given time, even at the very best club, there will be a) a few players who will never ever play a game, b) a few who might average 2-3 a year and rely on injuries to others to get a game, c) 15-16 that are looked on as the core of your side, d) another dozen or so who are competing for the last 6-7 spots on the team pending form fluctuations etc.

You can be the best recruiter in the world with a 100 per cent success rate and some of your selections will literally still never ever play a game of AFL football.

Wells' job at any given time isn't to pick up 6-10 players each off season to all play in our best 22. His job is to fill a couple of the gaps that we think we currently have, and pick up players that, in most cases, won't even be physically ready to play AFL football for at least another 12 months, who may or may not be able to play a roll for us when one of the established players retires or moves on but who also adds depth in the event that it is needed. Ie. He might draft a terrible ruckman late in a draft and everyone will look around and go "well what the hell was the point of that." But the counter would be "this kid was the last recognised ruckman in the draft, we could have taken a midfielder but we have 12 of them already so we will take an inferior player in the event that we do run out of ruckmen. Hopefully we won't."

That role will change again if and when we drop down the ladder.

He also drafts players who will act as collateral. They would have plans for the next 5-10 years and know which players from which team are coming out of contract. Jordan Clark

6

Jordan Clark

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.7

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

4.3

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.5

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.5

2star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.2

3star

K

10.4

4star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

is the perfect example. Yes, he will be a good player and yes, he will be a good player for us. But he's also a good option to send to WA if Brander comes out of contract and tells WC that he wants to get traded to Geelong (it's an example)...

 

[Vdubs]

He also drafts players who will act as collateral. They would have plans for the next 5-10 years and know which players from which team are coming out of contract. Jordan Clark

6

Jordan Clark

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.7

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

4.3

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.5

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.5

2star

MG

172.0

3star

D

12.2

3star

K

10.4

4star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.4

4star

is the perfect example. Yes, he will be a good player and yes, he will be a good player for us. But he's also a good option to send to WA if Brander comes out of contract and tells WC that he wants to get traded to Geelong (it's an example)...

Or Brother Henry should he go elsewhere( WA) but with a view to coming home?

 

[AM]

The only way to judge a recruiters record is over long-term ladder positions.

That would entail taking account not only recruiting but development, coaching, even off-field stability and direction.

 

[Vdubs]

In fairness he's had his misses and for a long time had an excellent development team working on the talent. Not saying he isn't accomplished btw.

What are his best gets?
From memory, my favourites were
All the players that played in 07, 09, 11 GF''s.
Not bad.
Harry, Mackie and Pods are classic Wells picks.

 

[year of the cat]

By signing all of I.Smith, Higgins and Tuohy - all over 30 - to two year contracts - it makes our list management a bit tricky at the end of next season. Our strategy of topping up may prove successful but if it doesn't we are going to be left with a very lopsided list in 2022. With Wells stating that next years draft will be one to use on youth it's hard to see, other than maybe Jenkins and possibly Selwood, any older players coming off the list. The bulk of the outs will again come from youth it would seem. It will also leave still a huge group of over 30's to be moved out over the next year or two leaving a massive gap in talent.

It's true that we've rebuilt whilst remaining competitive from our 2011 flag. But what we've done over the past couple of years in bringing the likes of Jenkins, Steven, Higgins and Smith in at the expense of youngsters may come back to bite us pretty soon.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

By signing all of I.Smith, Higgins and Tuohy - all over 30 - to two year contracts - it makes our list management a bit tricky at the end of next season. Our strategy of topping up may prove successful but if it doesn't we are going to be left with a very lopsided list in 2022. With Wells stating that next years draft will be one to use on youth it's hard to see, other than maybe Jenkins and possibly Selwood, any older players coming off the list. The bulk of the outs will again come from youth it would seem. It will also leave still a huge group of over 30's to be moved out over the next year or two leaving a massive gap in talent.

It's true that we've rebuilt whilst remaining competitive from our 2011 flag. But what we've done over the past couple of years in bringing the likes of Jenkins, Steven, Higgins and Smith in at the expense of youngsters may come back to bite us pretty soon.

Jenkins will go Henderson i imagine might retire (depends if we feel dek makes enough progress or we need to convince hendo to play on) Selwood possibly also Stanley and Rohan at 30 and Fort at 28 would be likely outs...all of Menegola Kolo Bews and Guthrie are free agents next year so at least one might choose to go.

Yes next year is clearly make or break for zuthrie narkle CC jarvis tarca etc but we will be delisting older players too.

 

[gaz love x]

By signing all of I.Smith, Higgins and Tuohy - all over 30 - to two year contracts - it makes our list management a bit tricky at the end of next season. Our strategy of topping up may prove successful but if it doesn't we are going to be left with a very lopsided list in 2022. With Wells stating that next years draft will be one to use on youth it's hard to see, other than maybe Jenkins and possibly Selwood, any older players coming off the list. The bulk of the outs will again come from youth it would seem. It will also leave still a huge group of over 30's to be moved out over the next year or two leaving a massive gap in talent.

It's true that we've rebuilt whilst remaining competitive from our 2011 flag. But what we've done over the past couple of years in bringing the likes of Jenkins, Steven, Higgins and Smith in at the expense of youngsters may come back to bite us pretty soon.

We have six picks inside the first three rounds in the 2021 draft as it stands (though this may change as soon as 2020 draft night) which leaves us in a good position to load up next year. Not much difference medium or long term in taking a player in 2021 versus 2020 or 2019. Jenkins was an awful recruitment but all he's costing is a temporary list spot. It looks like we're going to hold onto all the young players we want to this year so we're not losing much on face value, especially considering how unique this year's draft is.
Expect an overhaul this time next year with five or six players departing and the same coming in through the draft. Selwood and Jenkins plus any of the young guys who don't make strides next season makes that easy. The problem will be a year or two after that when we have multiple best 22 players departing by force but that's the gamble we've taken.

 

[Johnny Cattery]

Who out of Scarlo, Taylor and Lonergan would you have played Hamling ahead of?

I would have given each of them a week or two of rest so he got a start, got a taste. So that he thought he might have a future, and the club and coaches had a better sense of what he might be capable of.
OK, I know Scarlett's not going to rest ... but tell me he would have hated to stand aside from, say, a trip to Perth to play Freo?

There are many ways to do these things - early season games; back-to-back road trips; minor injuries / need to freshen up.

 

[Johnny Cattery]

By signing all of I.Smith, Higgins and Tuohy - all over 30 - to two year contracts - it makes our list management a bit tricky at the end of next season. Our strategy of topping up may prove successful but if it doesn't we are going to be left with a very lopsided list in 2022. With Wells stating that next years draft will be one to use on youth it's hard to see, other than maybe Jenkins and possibly Selwood, any older players coming off the list. The bulk of the outs will again come from youth it would seem. It will also leave still a huge group of over 30's to be moved out over the next year or two leaving a massive gap in talent.

It's true that we've rebuilt whilst remaining competitive from our 2011 flag. But what we've done over the past couple of years in bringing the likes of Jenkins, Steven, Higgins and Smith in at the expense of youngsters may come back to bite us pretty soon.

In addition to Jenkins and Selwood we could guess that we'll also lose Henderson, one of Stanley or Fort, possibly Rohan, then perhaps four or five younger players to the usual mix of trade out and delist. Among them will probably be Constable (no takers two years running ... ouch). We can also guess that the total list spots will be winched back a bit more, perhaps to 36 + 6 so let's say 8 out, six to come in, and we have a swag of pretty good picks just like we did this year ....

So I agree that we are set up for damage. It will be in six to eight years when it bites when we don't have that core of mid twenties players, of the kind who drove the breakthrough in 2007, who don't come as top-ups unless free agency qualification suddenly drops to six years (which it won't). I'm proud the club honoured its commitment to Cameron, but no-one should think that the price wasn't very, very steep - not least of which was the manpower of scouting over the last 12 months with those high-end picks in mind. That work goes down the drain, and I can't see how the Cats aren't in a bit of scramble because they would not have been expecting to use those very late picks. If we take one draftee at pick 51 (probably mid 40s?) and perhaps another very late then we can't expect that player or those players to flourish.

The two seconds back equate very roughly to the middle pick (15) so we got Cameron for 13 and 20 (likely to be 15 and 24). So it's not quite so gruesome as 'three firsts' sounds, but given he's in the last third of his career at best, probably the last quarter, it's steep. So I'd be interested to know what people think we will get, in terms of games, from Smith, Cameron and Higgins collectively, because in pure mathematical terms, if two of those four top 35 picks had worked out then you lock down ten percent of your best 22 for a decade, i.e. it would have been reasonable to expect 300 - 400 quality games from that group of players. (Culturally, if those players hook up with SDK and Stephens and it all works, you have an elite core.)

I'm depressed about losing the higher picks but in 2016, when we had one pick in the 20s, two in the 40s and 3 in the 60s we picked up Parfitt, Stewart, Ratugolea, Narkle, Henry, Guthrie, Simpson and O'Connor ... four locks for best 22, a couple who could be in the future (say one or two of Narkle, Simpson and Ratugolea), and a reliable depth player (Guthrie). We are likely to get at least 1000 games from that group. Did we get a Brownlow contender or winner, of the likes of Ablett, Bartel, Danger or Selwood? No. Do we need a couple if we're to win a flag? Yes. Were we likely to have picked up at least one with one of those three top 25 picks? Yes. So Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

33

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

, you had better have a damn good year, and Cats, for goodness sakes please use those four or five handy picks from next year instead of trading for Dustin Fletcher

Dustin Fletcher

Age

50

Ht

198cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.0

4star

K

12.3

5star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.7

4star

T

1.2

3star

MG

301.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

14.2

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

or Captain Mainwaring.

And while I'm hammering my keyboard: I wish people would stop saying there is a guarantee with experienced players: over the last few years, Danger, Dahlhaus, Rohan, Tuohy, Rivers, Ablett, Henderson, Caddy (just) are probably regarded as wins, to use that contentious (slightly ridiculous) terminology, but they need to be set against Black, Clark, Steven, McIntosh, Blease, Delaney, Smith, Crameri, Jenkins, almost all of whom you could say 'cost us nothing' but cost a list spot. Did we really 'know what we were getting'? To not know what you are getting with a younger player can cut both ways - who knew what we were getting with Sam Simpson

37

Sam Simpson

Age

27

Ht

183cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

6.2

2star

HB

6.4

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.8

3star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.3

5star

CL

1.7

4star

D

11.2

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

6.0

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

at the start of the season. Who of those incoming players from other clubs has improved after coming to the Cats? Rohan, if you think like I do that his contribution is routinely under-rated ... any others?

 

[AM]

What are his best gets?
From memory, my favourites were
All the players that played in 07, 09, 11 GF''s.
Not bad.
Harry, Mackie and Pods are classic Wells picks.

I don't think you can attribute a given player's success - even failure - solely at the feet of the recruiter. Many things come together which combined all contribute to how it turns out. Development is right up there.

I have enormous respect for Brendan McCartney as a development coach and give him considerable credit for the success of some players who, football talent-wise, were not VFL/AFL level. But who turned out to be integral parts of our success.

The role of the Head Coach is also integral. How players are used. Imbuing them with self-assurance etc.
As I've asked before, is the area of a table determined by its length or width? The reality is the area depends on how they relate. Same with player recruitment and development.

It's not a black and white conversation.

 

[Vdubs]

I don't think you can attribute a given player's success - even failure - solely at the feet of the recruiter. Many things come together which combined all contribute to how it turns out. Development is right up there.

I have enormous respect for Brendan McCartney as a development coach and give him considerable credit for the success of some players who, football talent-wise, were not VFL/AFL level. But who turned out to be integral parts of our success.

The role of the Head Coach is also integral. How players are used. Imbuing them with self-assurance etc.
As I've asked before, is the area of a table determined by its length or width? The reality is the area depends on how they relate. Same with player recruitment and development.

It's not a black and white conversation.

Of course, but this thread IS about Wells Recruiting Record, which over the journey is second to none, no matter what other factors are raised.

 

[year of the cat]

In addition to Jenkins and Selwood we could guess that we'll also lose Henderson, one of Stanley or Fort, possibly Rohan, then perhaps four or five younger players to the usual mix of trade out and delist. Among them will probably be Constable (no takers two years running ... ouch). We can also guess that the total list spots will be winched back a bit more, perhaps to 36 + 6 so let's say 8 out, six to come in, and we have a swag of pretty good picks just like we did this year ....

So I agree that we are set up for damage. It will be in six to eight years when it bites when we don't have that core of mid twenties players, of the kind who drove the breakthrough in 2007, who don't come as top-ups unless free agency qualification suddenly drops to six years (which it won't). I'm proud the club honoured its commitment to Cameron, but no-one should think that the price wasn't very, very steep - not least of which was the manpower of scouting over the last 12 months with those high-end picks in mind. That work goes down the drain, and I can't see how the Cats aren't in a bit of scramble because they would not have been expecting to use those very late picks. If we take one draftee at pick 51 (probably mid 40s?) and perhaps another very late then we can't expect that player or those players to flourish.

The two seconds back equate very roughly to the middle pick (15) so we got Cameron for 13 and 20 (likely to be 15 and 24). So it's not quite so gruesome as 'three firsts' sounds, but given he's in the last third of his career at best, probably the last quarter, it's steep. So I'd be interested to know what people think we will get, in terms of games, from Smith, Cameron and Higgins collectively, because in pure mathematical terms, if two of those four top 35 picks had worked out then you lock down ten percent of your best 22 for a decade, i.e. it would have been reasonable to expect 300 - 400 quality games from that group of players. (Culturally, if those players hook up with SDK and Stephens and it all works, you have an elite core.)

I'm depressed about losing the higher picks but in 2016, when we had one pick in the 20s, two in the 40s and 3 in the 60s we picked up Parfitt, Stewart, Ratugolea, Narkle, Henry, Guthrie, Simpson and O'Connor ... four locks for best 22, a couple who could be in the future (say one or two of Narkle, Simpson and Ratugolea), and a reliable depth player (Guthrie). We are likely to get at least 1000 games from that group. Did we get a Brownlow contender or winner, of the likes of Ablett, Bartel, Danger or Selwood? No. Do we need a couple if we're to win a flag? Yes. Were we likely to have picked up at least one with one of those three top 25 picks? Yes. So Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

33

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

, you had better have a damn good year, and Cats, for goodness sakes please use those four or five handy picks from next year instead of trading for Dustin Fletcher

Dustin Fletcher

Age

50

Ht

198cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.0

4star

K

12.3

5star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.7

4star

T

1.2

3star

MG

301.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

14.2

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

or Captain Mainwaring.

And while I'm hammering my keyboard: I wish people would stop saying there is a guarantee with experienced players: over the last few years, Danger, Dahlhaus, Rohan, Tuohy, Rivers, Ablett, Henderson, Caddy (just) are probably regarded as wins, to use that contentious (slightly ridiculous) terminology, but they need to be set against Black, Clark, Steven, McIntosh, Blease, Delaney, Smith, Crameri, Jenkins, almost all of whom you could say 'cost us nothing' but cost a list spot. Did we really 'know what we were getting'? To not know what you are getting with a younger player can cut both ways - who knew what we were getting with Sam Simpson

37

Sam Simpson

Age

27

Ht

183cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.7

3star

K

6.2

2star

HB

6.4

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.2

4star

CL

0.8

3star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.3

5star

CL

1.7

4star

D

11.2

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

6.0

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

at the start of the season. Who of those incoming players from other clubs has improved after coming to the Cats? Rohan, if you think like I do that his contribution is routinely under-rated ... any others?

Terrific post that articulated my thoughts far better than I did.

 

[AM]

Of course, but this thread IS about Wells Recruiting Record, which over the journey is second to none, no matter what other factors are raised.

If you say so.

 

[Vdubs]

If you say so.

I am interested in your opinion. Do you think there is no need for this thread?
Pretty much could say the same about any aspect of AFL, particularly our CS thread. There are so many other variables that come into play.