Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[The_Reaper]

Brisbane Bears played two matches in Perth during the 1988 season. At the club's suggestion, Brisbane's home match against West Coast in Round 3 was moved from Carrara Stadium on the Gold Coast to the WACA Ground in Perth after persistent and heavy rain in south-eastern Queensland left the ground and its adjoining facilities unable to accommodate the game. Brisbane had expected the clubs' Round 16 match to be moved from Perth to the Gold Coast in return, only to discover that the league considered the Round 3 match a Brisbane home game, meaning that Brisbane would be required to travel for the Round 16 match in Perth as well.

So the match was moved because Brisbane were unable to provide a suitable venue.

 

[Matchu]

So the match was moved because Brisbane were unable to provide a suitable venue.

Did you even read the second part? Brisbane thought the return fixture in July would be moved to Carrara but the VFL made the Bears travel to Perth twice in one season, which handed West Coast an extra home game and Brisbane one less home game. How is that fair?

 

[The_Reaper]

Did you even read the second part? Brisbane thought the return fixture in July would be scheduled at Carrara but the VFL made the Bears travel to Perth twice in one season, which handed West Coast an extra home game and Brisbane one less home game. How is that fair?

Why should West Coast give up a home game?

Actually is there any occasion ever where a team has given up a home game because the opposition couldn't arrange a suitable venue?

 

[Matchu]

Why should West Coast give up a home game?

Actually is there any occasion ever where a team has given up a home game because the opposition couldn't arrange a suitable venue?

Jeez! No wonder the Bears failed. Not only did the VFL short-change them but it looks like their fellow expansion club screwed them as well.

 

[Scotland]

So how did Fremantle's entry concessions stack up relative to Port's anyway?

According to Wiki:

Fremantle's initial squad of 50 players was compiled from a mixture of uncontracted players from other AFL clubs (maximum of 12 over two years), players who had previously nominated for the AFL draft but not been selected (unlimited from the WAFL, two each from the SANFL, VFL and TFL), up to ten delisted AFL players, trades with any other AFL club, unlimited selections from their four "aligned" WAFL clubs and selections 1, 4 and then the first two selections in each round of the 1994 AFL draft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremantle_Football_Club_drafting_and_trading_history

In 1995 they also had one pre-draft selection and 9 zone selections, as well as having pick 1 and 3 (on-traded) in the draft. By my reckoning they should've had pick 5 (Fitzroy PP, Fitzroy, Hawthorn, St Kilda, Freo) but ended up with 1, 3 and 7 so 1 & 3 were perhaps concessional picks also?

The quoted paragraph doesn't exactly read generously.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Because it really shits me to tears when people stated 1992 and 1994 didn't count because West Coast were gifted a State side when the facts prove it utterly wrong.

Dwayne Lamb, what a superstar.

I see it as similar to Geelong when we saw them rise in the late 00s. When the 150th anniversary exhibition game was played, off the top of my head, the Geelong players that were selected were: Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Enright, Corey, Johnson, Mooney, Stokes, Scarlett, Milburn, Chapman and I may have missed one or two more (I think Ling missed out from memory, though it's hard to see how, in retrospect). That's nearly a quarter of all the players that were picked. But if they had played that Victoria v Dream Team game 2-3 years earlier, Geelong would have been lucky to get more than about three players in those teams (Scarlett would have made it and guys like Corey and Chapman probably would have been considered...that's about it).

You've got to give the club some credit for being able to develop its superstars.

 

[Scotland]

Geelong are criticised for their father-sons (like the rule doesn't apply to everyone else...) but even if they had a dozen AA players over a couple of seasons the bulk of them came from the draft - so guys like Enright, Chapman, Johnson etc. anyone could've taken and developed.

The intimation is that West Coast's side full of SOO reps simply came from ongoing preferential access to WA players. There's merit to the argument, but the concessions need to be understood in context of the era and the other entry conditions.

 

[Matchu]

So how did Fremantle's entry concessions stack up relative to Port's anyway?

According to Wiki:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremantle_Football_Club_drafting_and_trading_history

In 1995 they also had one pre-draft selection and 9 zone selections, as well as having pick 1 and 3 (on-traded) in the draft. By my reckoning they should've had pick 5 (Fitzroy PP, Fitzroy, Hawthorn, St Kilda, Freo) but ended up with 1, 3 and 7 so 1 & 3 were perhaps concessional picks also?

The quoted paragraph doesn't exactly read generously.

Let's actually go through it and compare. My understanding of the concessions:

Fremantle entry concessions

• Access to 12 uncontracted AFL players spread over two years (1994/95).
• 11 pre-draft selections in 1994.
• One pre-draft selection in 1995.
• First draft pick in each round in 1994 and 1995.
• Unlimited WAFL players for two years (including up to three SANFL players in 1994).

Port Adelaide entry concessions

• Access to four uncontracted AFL players in 1996.
• First five picks in the 1996 draft (Pushed back four places as compensation for uncontracted signings ie pick 1 became pick 5, 2 became 6 etc).
• Unlimited SANFL players in 1996.

If I've got that right, which team do you believe received the better concessions? I'd have to say Fremantle but they made an absolute mess of it where as Port (in my opinion) made the absolute most of their concessions.

 

[Scotland]

Let's actually go through it and compare. My understanding of the concessions:

Fremantle entry concessions

• Access to 12 uncontracted AFL players spread over two years (1994/95).
• 11 pre-draft selections in 1994.
• One pre-draft selection in 1995.
• First draft pick in each round in 1994 and 1995.
• Unlimited WAFL players for two years (including up to three SANFL players in 1994).

Port Adelaide entry concessions

• Access to four uncontracted AFL players in 1996.
• First five picks in the 1996 draft (Pushed back four places as compensation for uncontracted signings ie pick 1 became pick 5, 2 became 6 etc).
• Unlimited SANFL players in 1996.

If I've got that right, which team do you believe received the better concessions? I'd have to say Fremantle but they made an absolute mess of it where as Port (in my opinion) made the absolute most of their concessions.

Freo had zone selections in 1994 and 1995 plus picks 1 & 3 in 1995, I don't know Port's restrictions on uncontracted players but they took 5 in 1996. The rest looks about right from what I can remember.

It's all about context.

Ashley Blurton, Ian Downsborough. That's the full list of players taken from the WAFL in the 1994 national draft other than those picked by Freo. For all the preferential access in the world, the talent pool was pretty shallow at the time. In hindsight GWS type concessions would've been much better but clubs were only starting to take the draft seriously and the club probably would've traded them for magic beans as they did in their early years, or just used them on the best players in the WAFL anyway.

Freo's strike rate with zone/pre-draft selections was very low. Bell (traded away, I guess Farmer and McLeod fit in there somewhere), Shane Parker, McManus and a couple of guys that forged decent enough careers to be remembered. Freo's failings came from starting with a base of mediocre players and making some awful list management decisions which look worse with hindsight but weren't worlds apart from what other clubs did in the same era - except those clubs had established lists to absorb **** ups better.

Port on the other hand netted P Burgoyne, Harley, Eagleton, Dew, Francou, James, Tredrea, Lade, Wilson... Again there were very few players taken in the draft from the SANFL because there is only so much talent to go around. They did a better job with what they had only really losing Harley and Biglands from their initial crop but Port was also an existing club building an AFL standard team rather than a bunch of blokes in demountables making it up as they go along - which is how both WA clubs started.

Based on the quality of players that were available I'd have to say Port got the better deal, but the entry conditions on paper were pretty comparable.

 

[Matchu]

Freo had zone selections in 1994 and 1995 plus picks 1 & 3 in 1995, I don't know Port's restrictions on uncontracted players but they took 5 in 1996. The rest looks about right from what I can remember.

It's all about context.

Ashley Blurton, Ian Downsborough. That's the full list of players taken from the WAFL in the 1994 national draft other than those picked by Freo. For all the preferential access in the world, the talent pool was pretty shallow at the time. In hindsight GWS type concessions would've been much better but clubs were only starting to take the draft seriously and the club probably would've traded them for magic beans as they did in their early years, or just used them on the best players in the WAFL anyway.

Freo's strike rate with zone/pre-draft selections was very low. Bell (traded away, I guess Farmer and McLeod fit in there somewhere), Shane Parker, McManus and a couple of guys that forged decent enough careers to be remembered. Freo's failings came from starting with a base of mediocre players and making some awful list management decisions which look worse with hindsight but weren't worlds apart from what other clubs did in the same era - except those clubs had established lists to absorb **** ups better.

Port on the other hand netted P Burgoyne, Harley, Eagleton, Dew, Francou, James, Tredrea, Lade, Wilson... Again there were very few players taken in the draft from the SANFL because there is only so much talent to go around. They did a better job with what they had only really losing Harley and Biglands from their initial crop but Port was also an existing club building an AFL standard team rather than a bunch of blokes in demountables making it up as they go along - which is how both WA clubs started.

Based on the quality of players that were available I'd have to say Port got the better deal, but the entry conditions on paper were pretty comparable.

So Port got the better deal because the SANFL was stronger than the WAFL at the time of inception which is completely out of either club's control and is really something that can only be determined in retrospect. Your logic is all well and good but Fremantle did receive three SA selections as a part of their zone concessions and Port didn't any receive any WA picks. Perhaps the AFL recognised the WAFL wasn't at its strongest in 1994 and that's why they allowed the Dockers to pursue three SA players. It's well documented that they messed up big time with one of those SA players in Andrew McLeod and really should have had their finger on the pulse to secure Ben Cousins as a zone pick. Those two alone could have made things very different for the Dockers.

The Dockers were also allowed to select country Victorian footballers with their pre-draft selections and signed two guys (Cassidy and Ljubic) that played a total of zero senior games for the Dockers so they wasted that opportunity. Fremantle also cut a terrible deals with Essendon in 1994 and West Coast in 1995 which essentially cut out about half the teams for them to sign uncontracted players from. Should we even mention the trading of players like Peter Bell?

It was just a calamity of errors from the Dockers right from the start but let's not pretend like those zonal concessions resulted in nothing for the Dockers. They got their hands on two 200-gamers in Shaun McManus and Shane Parker. Port's zonal concessions resulted in three 200-gamers in Peter Burgyone, Brendon Lade and Warren Tredrea. So when you talk about absolute legends of the clubs they are pretty similar but when you talk about players between 100-200 games it's pretty lopsided in Port's favour.

What else is there to say? You can't choose when you enter the AFL and you can't choose when a superstar is coming through your local league. However, you can choose the recruiting department you put together. A more professional outfit would have, at the very least, watched video of Andrew McLeod before they flew him out to Perth to interview him. That's just one example of something basic they should have done but I won't go any further.

 

[Kwality]

Did you even read the second part? Brisbane thought the return fixture in July would be moved to Carrara but the VFL made the Bears travel to Perth twice in one season, which handed West Coast an extra home game and Brisbane one less home game. How is that fair?

How is that fair? In the AFL, pleeease ...

 

[Citizen Erazed]

This is basic mathematics is it not? 22 players make up a football team, lets call it the WA state team, of which at their peak the Eagles contributed 14 players at a particular time. By my calculations that means 8 players came from other teams as shown by the following sum 22-14=8. This leads me to conclude that no the Eagles were not a state team at that time. For those interested (no one) they were approximately 36% shy.

 

[Scotland]

So Port got the better deal because the SANFL was stronger than the WAFL at the time of inception which is completely out of either club's control and is really something that can only be determined in retrospect.

How is that any different to history's view of West Coast?

 

[Matchu]

How is that any different to history's view of West Coast?

Are we really going through this again? One more time, concessions received by West Coast and Port Adelaide:

West Coast's entry concessions

• Access to six uncontracted VFL players in 1986.
• Exclusive access to WAFL players in 1986.
• Exclusive access to WAFL players in 1987.
• Five pre-draft picks to select WAFL players in 1988.
• Two pre-draft and three post-draft picks to select WAFL players in 1989.
• Two pre-draft picks to select WAFL players 1990.
  
• One pre-draft pick to select a WAFL player in 1991.
• Like every other club from 1992 onward.

Port Adelaide's entry concessions

• Access to five uncontracted AFL players in 1996.
• First four picks in the 1996 draft (Pushed back four places as compensation for uncontracted signings ie pick 1 became pick 5, 2 became 6 etc).
• Exclusive access to SANFL players in 1996.
• Like every other club from 1997 onward.

Take away the players either club recruited in those years and my opinion is that West Coast's concessions were better. Look back retrospectively and account for players either club recruited and I definitely think West Coast's concessions were better. Port had to one go at assembling its entire list of SANFL players before any other club could access them. West Coast was able to secure the best WAFL player for six consecutive years before any other club could access those players. The rules associated with recruiting WAFL players basically forced the Eagles to become mostly a state team and we saw 14 WA state reps in 1991.

Either way you slice it, I believe West Coast's entry concessions were better than Port's.

 

[Scotland]

You miss the point. Again. I'm not arguing that Port had better concessions than West Coast or vice versa.

West Coast's concessions are considered generous in hindsight because we built a strong team from them.

We're talking about an era where teams were strong from players zoned to them and players poached from other clubs or the WAFL/SANFL. The #1 pick in the 1986 draft was a 24 year old SANFL player. It wasn't until the mid to late 90s that clubs really started to take the idea of building from the draft seriously.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it but all concessions need to be viewed in context.

West Coast's entry concessions

• Access to six uncontracted VFL players in 1986. Max one per club, many players were signed up after being old West Coast wouldn't come in to the VFL. Couldn't sign players from anywhere else.
  
• Exclusive access to WAFL players in 1986. After one last raid on players following West Coast's delayed entry. Couldn't sign players from anywhere else.
  
• Exclusive access to WAFL players in 1987. Again couldn't sign players from anywhere else.
  
• Five pre-draft picks to select WAFL players in 1988. To make up for the fact that our list started 15 players short.
  
• Two pre-draft and three post-draft picks to select WAFL players in 1989. To make up for the fact that our list started 15 players short.
• Two pre-draft picks to select WAFL players 1990. To make up for the fact that our list started 15 players short.
  
• One pre-draft pick to select a WAFL player in 1991. To make up for the fact that our list started 15 players short.
  
• Like every other club from 1992 onward. Did I mention that our list started 15 players short?

You keep harping on about pre-draft access to the WAFL for several years in a row but this is the WAFL that had all the best senior players already taken from it, then 10 players taken from it before West Coast joined the VFL, then the bulk of West Coast's squad taken from it, then we could only pick from it in 1987, then in 1988 every club bar West Coast was allowed one player each... I mean would you like Port to have pre-draft access to the WAFL next year if I just take 30 or 40 players beforehand? If you tried to build a team now from scratch picking only WAFL players for the next 5 years you wouldn't get out of the bottom 4. We got lucky in needing to pick young players with promise (or plodders) and stumbled across the modern day recipe for success.

West Coast's concessions were essentially the VFL saying '**** you, this is our comp you play by our rules. Take whatever you want from the WAFL, we're done with it' and it bit them royally on the arse.

Applying West Coast's post inception concessions to Freo for example based on draft order (except 1995)...

1995 - Unlimited WAFL: Daniel Chick, Todd Curley, Matthew Carr... not a whole lot else, though Ben Cousins was a F/S selection then so I guess he counts.
1996 - 5 x pre-draft: Michael Gardiner, Tim Williams, Evan Hewitt, Troy Cook, Nathan Turvey
1997 - 2 x pre-draft: Jaxon Crabb, Troy Longmuir
1998 - 2 x pre-draft: Des Headland, Justin Longmuir
1999 - 1 x pre-draft: Paul Hasleby

Some reasonable players there but they wouldn't have turned Freo into a powerhouse. Six were either drafted by Freo or ended up there anyway. Point being that the WAFL was already raided for a second time when they came in and simply having pre-draft access to players is no guarantee of a generation of stars. Plus you'd have to take out Jeff White and Clive because no drafting outside WA for the first two years... and they'd have been playing 15 players short of course.

You could do the same for Port too but remember getting pre-draft selections means you start with 15 fewer players, you don't get to participate in the 1996 and 1997 drafts etc. Context context context. Would you take pre-draft selections 1998-2001 if it meant no access to the 1995 or 1996 drafts? And you had to only pick SANFL players in 1995 and 1996? And in 1995 knowing that you're coming in the following year 15 other clubs are going to draft Tredrea, Burgoyne, Eagleton, Lade etc. to get their SANFL fix for the two years you'll be out...

When you come in is massively influential on how valuable your concessions are. Had GWS come in to the comp in 2007 their concessions would've been half as valuable with so few good players taken in the top 20.

Port got lucky, West Coast got lucky, Freo didn't. Jury is out on GC and GWS but they certainly got the most support from the AFL

 

[BRWB]

The Eagles made the best of the cards dealt to them.
The Dockers probably didn't get as good a hand and what they did get they cocked up.
Don't see why the Eagles should have to somehow feel unworthy of the flags they won because they made the best of things.

Maybe some humility.

There is no denying that at the same time the AFL was granting generous concessions to the Eagles, the AFL was actively seeking to wipe my club out.

Please forgive some AFL fans for being a little bitter about the clear inequities in the AFL system that systematically advantages and privileges some clubs over others.

And yes WC have seen some of it with no home prelims for a period, away GFs, the non suspension of Barry Hall....

But don't kid yourself WC is one of the privileged clubs to have received preferential AFL treatment that directly led to two premierships. Which is exactly what the AFL wanted.

They wanted to kill my club. Don't expect any VFL fan to give privileged clubs like the Eagles much credit.

And that's leaving aside the rumours of the reasons behind the massive size gain of WC players in one pre-season when Malthouse arrived.

 

[Scotland]

Privileged club. **** me. I'm not going to deny the AFL DGAF about the Bulldogs, but on their hierarchy of pet projects West Coast don't feature.

Remember while we wanted in that the VFL wanted us and our $4m to help insolvent clubs...

 

[Forward Press]

1992* - drugs, concessions, State of Origin players, Bradbury, captained by dodgy pharmacist sniper
1994* - drugs, concessions, State of Origin players, captained by dodgy pharmacist sniper again
2006* - drugs, even more drugs, biased umpires, captained by chicken winging eye gouger obtained from tanking

 

[BRWB]

Privileged club. **** me. I'm not going to deny the AFL DGAF about the Bulldogs, but on their hierarchy of pet projects West Coast don't feature.

Remember while we wanted in that the VFL wanted us and our $4m to help insolvent clubs...

That is utter BS. THE AFL desperately wanted and needed their first startup from scratch interstate club to succeed. It was the beginning of a genuine national comp and the money that entailed.

And what a surprise an AFL Gerry rigged comp saw WC win 2 flags in three yrs within 7 yrs of entering the comp.

It's only through sheer incompetence that Freo haven't won a flag since they entered. Bears, Swans, WC and Crows have won multiple flags.

Flattest premiership day I can ever remember in 92. I was working a blue collar bar in inner city Melbourne.

We all knew our respective VFL clubs had just seen our chances of winning a flag go through the floor

11 flags in the last 25 yrs to non Vic clubs despite being a minority section of the comp broke all probability laws - but not the AFLs

 

[Scotland]

That is utter BS. THE AFL desperately wanted and needed their first startup from scratch interstate club to succeed. It was the beginning of a genuine national comp and the money that entailed.

And what a surprise an AFL Gerry rigged comp saw WC win 2 flags in three yrs within 7 yrs of entering the comp.

It's only through sheer incompetence that Freo haven't won a flag since they entered. Bears, Swans, WC and Crows have won multiple flags.

Flattest premiership day I can ever remember in 92. I was working a blue collar bar in inner city Melbourne.

We all knew our respective VFL clubs had just seen our chances of winning a flag go through the floor

11 flags in the last 25 yrs to non Vic clubs despite being a minority section of the comp broke all probability laws - but not the AFLs

Good rant. Clueless, but good rant.

You know that two teams entered the VFL in 1987, right? And one of them was pretty much left to their own devices in a non-football state and nearly folded. The AFL had to intervene years down the track.

The other was forced to pay $4m within 30 days after initially agreeing to paying that amount over 10 years and nearly didn't get off the ground at all. And could only recruit players from the VFL (one per club max) with prior WAFL experience and players from the WAFL to fill a list of 37, 15 fewer than every other club at the time. So we were set up to dominate from being bankrupt and unable to sign the best 30 or 40 Western Australian players at the time or players from anywhere else. Good-o.

Since GF Day in 1992 Essendon, North Melbourne, Carlton, Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn have all won premierships. St Kilda and Melbourne have made GFs. Richmond and Western Bulldogs have made PFs.

Cry me a river, if not for national expansion there would not have been a 12 team VFL much longer.

 

[Matchu]

You miss the point. Again. I'm not arguing that Port had better concessions than West Coast or vice versa.

West Coast's concessions are considered generous in hindsight because we built a strong team from them.

We're talking about an era where teams were strong from players zoned to them and players poached from other clubs or the WAFL/SANFL. The #1 pick in the 1986 draft was a 24 year old SANFL player. It wasn't until the mid to late 90s that clubs really started to take the idea of building from the draft seriously.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it but all concessions need to be viewed in context.

You keep harping on about pre-draft access to the WAFL for several years in a row but this is the WAFL that had all the best senior players already taken from it, then 10 players taken from it before West Coast joined the VFL, then the bulk of West Coast's squad taken from it, then we could only pick from it in 1987, then in 1988 every club bar West Coast was allowed one player each... I mean would you like Port to have pre-draft access to the WAFL next year if I just take 30 or 40 players beforehand? If you tried to build a team now from scratch picking only WAFL players for the next 5 years you wouldn't get out of the bottom 4. We got lucky in needing to pick young players with promise (or plodders) and stumbled across the modern day recipe for success.

West Coast's concessions were essentially the VFL saying '**** you, this is our comp you play by our rules. Take whatever you want from the WAFL, we're done with it' and it bit them royally on the arse.

Applying West Coast's post inception concessions to Freo for example based on draft order (except 1995)...

1995 - Unlimited WAFL: Daniel Chick, Todd Curley, Matthew Carr... not a whole lot else, though Ben Cousins was a F/S selection then so I guess he counts.
1996 - 5 x pre-draft: Michael Gardiner, Tim Williams, Evan Hewitt, Troy Cook, Nathan Turvey
1997 - 2 x pre-draft: Jaxon Crabb, Troy Longmuir
1998 - 2 x pre-draft: Des Headland, Justin Longmuir
1999 - 1 x pre-draft: Paul Hasleby

Some reasonable players there but they wouldn't have turned Freo into a powerhouse. Six were either drafted by Freo or ended up there anyway. Point being that the WAFL was already raided for a second time when they came in and simply having pre-draft access to players is no guarantee of a generation of stars. Plus you'd have to take out Jeff White and Clive because no drafting outside WA for the first two years... and they'd have been playing 15 players short of course.

You could do the same for Port too but remember getting pre-draft selections means you start with 15 fewer players, you don't get to participate in the 1996 and 1997 drafts etc. Context context context. Would you take pre-draft selections 1998-2001 if it meant no access to the 1995 or 1996 drafts? And you had to only pick SANFL players in 1995 and 1996? And in 1995 knowing that you're coming in the following year 15 other clubs are going to draft Tredrea, Burgoyne, Eagleton, Lade etc. to get their SANFL fix for the two years you'll be out...

When you come in is massively influential on how valuable your concessions are. Had GWS come in to the comp in 2007 their concessions would've been half as valuable with so few good players taken in the top 20.

Port got lucky, West Coast got lucky, Freo didn't. Jury is out on GC and GWS but they certainly got the most support from the AFL

We'll have to agree to disagree. You don't seem to see the advantage of having first (second, third, fourth and fifth) pick of a state league for six years like I do. Regardless of whether the league was raided, there will always be young stars coming through later down the track that weren't recruited at the time and West Coast proved that with the likes of McKenna, McIntosh Jakovich, Kemp etc. It also forced the Eagles into a situation where they didn't have to deal with the go-home factor but I won't go any further because you've obviously made up your mind on what West Coast received.

I've already pointed out that Port Adelaide put together a premiership team through fair drafting and trading. It wasn't our concessions in 1996 that won us the '04 flag and I don't think the same can be said about West Coast in 92/94.

 

[Matchu]

Scotland, the picture you're painting doesn't add up with the results West Coast had. You tell me that the WAFL was completely raided of any quality in 1986 before the Eagles could assemble their inaugural list but history tells me the team (that was still made up of WAFL players) makes the finals in their second season with an extremely inexperienced list. How could that be? How could a team made up of low quality, inexperienced and over traveled players finish top 4 in their second season? No other expansion team in the history of the VFL/AFL made the finals in their second season. Something isn't adding up here...

 

[Scotland]

Our pre-draft selections from 1988-1991 were very advantageous, but you're looking at it from a 2010s perspective of valuing the draft highly and continuing to not acknowledge that we started with 15 fewer players. Given the ability to have a full list of 52 and the opportunity to sign Bairstow, Winmar etc. we would've cashed in those concessions in a heartbeat.

Primus, Downsborough, Cummings (traded for Schofield) had no SANFL experience prior to signing for Port. Take them out. There's one premiership player down.

Lade, Francou, Eagleton (traded for Montgomery), Tredrea, P Burgoyne, James, Dew, Wilson all zone selections.

Adam Kinglsey was taken in the 1996 draft. Take him out too.

Chad Cornes was taken in the 1997 draft and Matthew Bode (traded for pick 12 used on S Burgoyne) was taken in the 1997 PSD. These are SANFL players so you can keep them. You can have Brad Ottens though if you like. Funny how after taking 20 or so players in 1996 how thin the talent pool of SA players was the year later, no?

So that's 10 premiership players - and some pretty damn good ones - that came from 1996 concessions. Can we give up on the charade that Port's access to the SANFL as well as uncontracted players from anywhere as well as the 1996 draft didn't play a big part in the strength of their list in the early 2000s? That's just premiership players too. Other guys like Paxman and Primus had long and important careers at Port.

If you want to compare apples with apples then imagine a parallel universe where Port got:

Unlimited access to SANFL players 1996 and 1997, pre-draft selections 1998-2001 with a one player per other club limit in 1998

but

A list in 1997 with 15 fewer players than everyone else
No access to the 1996 and 1997 drafts
No ability to sign uncontracted players in 1996 without prior SANFL experience

You might've got Pavlich or Didak or whoever, but who do you miss before that point? Context my friend.

 

[Bacon Warrior]

That is utter BS. THE AFL desperately wanted and needed their first startup from scratch interstate club to succeed. It was the beginning of a genuine national comp and the money that entailed.

And what a surprise an AFL Gerry rigged comp saw WC win 2 flags in three yrs within 7 yrs of entering the comp.

It's only through sheer incompetence that Freo haven't won a flag since they entered. Bears, Swans, WC and Crows have won multiple flags.

Flattest premiership day I can ever remember in 92. I was working a blue collar bar in inner city Melbourne.

We all knew our respective VFL clubs had just seen our chances of winning a flag go through the floor

11 flags in the last 25 yrs to non Vic clubs despite being a minority section of the comp broke all probability laws - but not the AFLs

lol, at least you realise your club is an irrelevant, minuscule relic from a bygone era that should have been put down at the first opportunity.

 

[Scotland]

Scotland, the picture you're painting doesn't add up with the results West Coast had. You tell me that the WAFL was completely raided of any quality in 1986 before the Eagles could assemble their inaugural list but history tells me the team (that was still made up of WAFL players) makes the finals in their second season with an extremely inexperienced list. How could that be? How could a team made up of low quality, inexperienced and over traveled players finish top 4 in their second season? No other expansion team in the history of the VFL/AFL made the finals in their second season. Something isn't adding up here...

West Coast finished 13-9 in 1988 and lost their only final. Let's not pretend they were dominant. They also won just 7 games the following year.

The 1988 EF side had an average age of 24y 229d but an average experience of only 45 games per player. That's not something you would see these days. Port's team at the same stage (i.e after two seasons) had similar experience but on average was two years younger.

7 of the 20 that played that day (5 of which were in the youngest 6) played in the 1992 GF. It was a team with a pretty good age distribution but most of the mid range players weren't that good.

The WAFL wasn't totally devoid of talent but the best talent was gone. The guys who were 18/19 in 1988 turned out much better players than the ones who were mid 20s, but we didn't know that would be the case at the time. It wasn't until the early 90s when the team started to get a core of players with 50-100 games experience (who were early to mid 20s at our peak) together that we became a top side.