Review What’s Going Wrong?

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Bacchus

Bacchus

Premiership Player
Veteran
Apr 12, 2008
3,927
5,040
Down South
AFL Club
West Coast
Yesterday’s loss was a shocker, there’s no way of putting lipstick on the pig. We had a good chance to consolidate a position near the top of the ladder and completely blew it. We had our foot on the head of an average team, didn’t finish the job and let them get up and embarrass us. They are probably chortling about one of their greatest ever wins.

This loss has serious implications for our season and makes a win this week against a Collingwood with their backs to the wall imperative. If we drop the Collingwood game then we will be 2-4, as we won’t be beating Geelong in Geelong. That will be just about the season.

We have nearly, if not the most talented list in the competition. Why aren’t we better?

My answer is that one of the main reasons goes back to an unbalanced, misguided recruiting policy. We have too many tall players which we are trying to fit into the team and too few midfielders. Recruiting Brander, Allen and Waterman in one draft was just crazy. Sure, they are all good players but how do they fit into a team that already has Kennedy and Darling?

We were slaughtered in the midfield yesterday. We don’t have our two best midfielders but the depth is lamentably thin. We are seeing Trew who has played two WAFL games as our saviour. This is poor recruiting and it’s coming home to roost.

There are other big issues of course but unbalanced recruiting is a major problem. Duggan does not seem to be a midfielder, he seems to have lost his game altogether. Sheed and Kelly were trying to carry the entire load yesterday that was too much for them.
 
You said it yourself, our best 2 midfielders are missing and the guys left are not quite good enough to get it done consistently without them.

We’ve seen this before at the club when Judd and Cousins left - a ‘stacked’ midfield runs about 5-6 deep, but when you remove the best 2 guys, it becomes an average midfield, and then if you get a couple of the best guys left having a bad day - Kelly and Sheed for example - it gets really difficult to win much through there.

That said, they were up by 30 points - and it’s not the first time they have been unable to maintain control of the game - even last week, Port out scored us in the 2nd half and controlled large portions of the back end of the game.

Not sure what the solution is - Shuey could very well be just about cooked - another medium term injury away from the knackery and Yeo will have missed a year, possibly more by the time he returns.

Interesting times ahead...
 
Bacchus said:
Yesterday’s loss was a shocker, there’s no way of putting lipstick on the pig. We had a good chance to consolidate a position near the top of the ladder and completely blew it. We had our foot on the head of an average team, didn’t finish the job and let them get up and embarrass us. They are probably chortling about one of their greatest ever wins.

This loss has serious implications for our season and makes a win this week against a Collingwood with their backs to the wall imperative. If we drop the Collingwood game then we will be 2-4, as we won’t be beating Geelong in Geelong. That will be just about the season.

We have nearly, if not the most talented list in the competition. Why aren’t we better?

My answer is that one of the main reasons goes back to an unbalanced, misguided recruiting policy. We have too many tall players which we are trying to fit into the team and too few midfielders. Recruiting Brander, Allen and Waterman in one draft was just crazy. Sure, they are all good players but how do they fit into a team that already has Kennedy and Darling?

We were slaughtered in the midfield yesterday. We don’t have our two best midfielders but the depth is lamentably thin. We are seeing Trew who has played two WAFL games as our saviour. This is poor recruiting and it’s coming home to roost.

There are other big issues of course but unbalanced recruiting is a major problem. Duggan does not seem to be a midfielder, he seems to have lost his game altogether. Sheed and Kelly were trying to carry the entire load yesterday that was too much for them.
Click to expand...
Settle down chicken little. Yesterday was bad, no doubt about it, but we controlled that game for 2.5 quarters and just lost our heads in the end. It sucks, but is a good checkpoint for our leaders to reflect and get better. They let the team down yesterday by not standing up to stop momentum in the last.

This is a tough and even season and there will be upsets. Last week Port and Tigers got flogged. Then we get flogged this week, by a team that lost by 75 points the week before. We're in the middle of a really tough stretch of games, beat Collingwood on Friday and we get through at 3-3. Then our draw opens up and we can start banking wins.
 

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Missing stoppage quality. Missing running capacity.

The first problem can't be fully addressed until Shuey and Yeo return - until then the club can only make the best of what is available - perhaps sacrifice a forward position to create an extra around the stoppages to prevent getting blown away.

The second problem can be addressed this week. Remove those who are currently incapable of running out a match at AFL level (Waterman, Jones, Winder etc) and replace them with players who will still be running strong over four quarters at that level.


The problem I feel isn't actually as bad as it is being made out to be - the system actually worked fine whilst the team was able to create a contest up the ground. However the club had several players who hit a wall during the third quarter and could no longer keep pace with their opposition counterparts. The Saints had to chase the game and thus committed extras around the stoppages in an attempt to create something.

Thus St Kilda ended up with overwhelming numbers around the ball in the second half, whilst West Coast appeared to be chasing shadows. Any time an Eagles' player won possession, the extras from the Saints were able to apply pressure and affect the disposal. Conversely, when a Saints' player took possession, those extras provided multiple outlets for a clean clearance and the opportunity to expose the defence in one-on-one match-ups.

It gets hard to maintain any territory when the opponent is able to get four extra players to each contest. The pressure builds up and mistakes inevitably follow, leading to opposition momentum and goals.


The problem against St Kilda (and also the Bulldogs) was more of selection rather than scheme. On both occasions the club went in overly tall and were overrun late by an opponent swarming the ball - and on both occasions the club didn't have the rotational options available to place the brakes upon the gathering momentum of the opposition.


West Coast are still a very good team. The problem is they are now 2-2 rather than 4-0, due to an issue which is self-inflicted.

The club really is its own worst enemy at the moment - it is incredibly frustrating.


Just two things need tweaking:
  • play to block-up the opponent and break-even in the middle - use a spare until Shuey and Yeo return
  • approach the rotations with a view of a marathon rather than a sprint - rather than thinking of how rotations will be used from the start, selection in this area should be guided by how they will be best used during the last quarter.

It is not as bad as it looks - however considerable damage has already been done that may well impact how the club ends up finishing this season.
 
Invested too much in to Tim Kelly. He's not the type that can carry a team across the line like shuey or yeo. He's more of a outside player, with questionable disposal.
 
footballfreak said:
Invested too much in to Tim Kelly. He's not the type that can carry a team across the line like shuey or yeo. He's more of a outside player, with questionable disposal.
Click to expand...

I think Kelly was a good pick up - to add more class to a workmanlike midfield....but even at the time it was a lot to pay at the trade table for an out of contract player, who only wanted to play for us and had 2 years of top level form under his belt.
 
footballfreak said:
Invested too much in to Tim Kelly. He's not the type that can carry a team across the line like shuey or yeo. He's more of a outside player, with questionable disposal.
Click to expand...
Disagree with this.
He usually has pretty good disposal.

He virtually carried us over the line last year against the
Saints when we pretty much had our whole midfield out.

He's the only A grade midfield we have left at the moment.
Reckon we'd be in big trouble without him.
 
A slight off shoot, but I think we need to start getting games into Harry Edwards ASAP.

We have been exposed this year by TALL forwards ala the King Brothers and Todd Marshall and more than likely Mason Cox on Friday who is good for 2-3 goals a game against us. Neither McGovern or Barrass are at their best against sheer height, and our 3rd tall in Shep is obviously not going to work.
 

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Dylan82 said:
Missing stoppage quality. Missing running capacity.

The first problem can't be fully addressed until Shuey and Yeo return - until then the club can only make the best of what is available - perhaps sacrifice a forward position to create an extra around the stoppages to prevent getting blown away.

The second problem can be addressed this week. Remove those who are currently incapable of running out a match at AFL level (Waterman, Jones, Winder etc) and replace them with players who will still be running strong over four quarters at that level.


The problem I feel isn't actually as bad as it is being made out to be - the system actually worked fine whilst the team was able to create a contest up the ground. However the club had several players who hit a wall during the third quarter and could no longer keep pace with their opposition counterparts. The Saints had to chase the game and thus committed extras around the stoppages in an attempt to create something.

Thus St Kilda ended up with overwhelming numbers around the ball in the second half, whilst West Coast appeared to be chasing shadows. Any time an Eagles' player won possession, the extras from the Saints were able to apply pressure and affect the disposal. Conversely, when a Saints' player took possession, those extras provided multiple outlets for a clean clearance and the opportunity to expose the defence in one-on-one match-ups.

It gets hard to maintain any territory when the opponent is able to get four extra players to each contest. The pressure builds up and mistakes inevitably follow, leading to opposition momentum and goals.


The problem against St Kilda (and also the Bulldogs) was more of selection rather than scheme. On both occasions the club went in overly tall and were overrun late by an opponent swarming the ball - and on both occasions the club didn't have the rotational options available to place the brakes upon the gathering momentum of the opposition.


West Coast are still a very good team. The problem is they are now 2-2 rather than 4-0, due to an issue which is self-inflicted.

The club really is its own worst enemy at the moment - it is incredibly frustrating.


Just two things need tweaking:
  • play to block-up the opponent and break-even in the middle - use a spare until Shuey and Yeo return
  • approach the rotations with a view of a marathon rather than a sprint - rather than thinking of how rotations will be used from the start, selection in this area should be guided by how they will be best used during the last quarter.

It is not as bad as it looks - however considerable damage has already been done that may well impact how the club ends up finishing this season.
Click to expand...
GREAT POST Dylan82
Take NOTE Simmo and those dumbasses WC MC
 
Last edited:
They just need to fix the ground ball/contested ball problem.

To do that, Sheed, Redden, Gaff and Kelly have to be instructed to hunt the ball. Not worry about where the ball might end up, but to go in hard and get it. Too often then not we have 3 of the 4 aforementioned guys standing around the outside of a contest, and one of them in close having a half assed attempt at getting it. Conversely, St Kilda on the weekend would have 3 guys in tight going after the ball, and a man on the outside waiting for the release disposal.

Frustrating. Very frustrating.

And would it kill those boys to lay tackles consistently too? For so bizarre reason, it's an area of our game that Simpson never seems to worry about.
 
Perhaps the WA environment - fear of the outside? We have wet the bed and handed up two games. Cripps kicking into the man on the mark and JG dropping a chest mark has nothing to do with Shuey and Yoe being absent. It is above the shoulders. (as was Kelly's game of fumbles and mis-kicks.)

In both losses we capitulated under physical pressure in the final quarter and failed to apply any real ferosity.
 
I think we could have put a better, more balanced team on the park for sure, but Saturdays loss was not down to which players were and weren't available. That loss was purely down to mentality. When you are 40 points up halfway through the 3rd against a team that hasn't won a game for the year and were embarrassed by the bombers a week earlier, the only way you lose that game is by mentally checking out. Credit to the Saints too- they still had to get it done and believe that it could be done, but that doesn't happen if our blokes just concentrated on playing the next play to the best of their ability rather than putting the cue in the rack.
It has been said for a couple of years now that this team is mentally weak, that they have lost the hunger after tasting success in 2018. It is difficult to argue against that. I've always been a big advocate for Simmo but Im now coming around to the thinking that he is not ruthless and does not demand enough of our players. Hardwick seems to have the balance right- he is very supportive but he also has a ruthless streak and demands the best from all players and they ALL buy into it. Without being in the inner sanctum, it is just my feeling that Simmo may just be too lenient on some of these blokes and they dont have the hunger, desire and ruthlessness to bring 4 quarter performances.
I think this game will be a make or break point. We have had some disappointing losses the past 2 years but nothing as telling as this. It may be the kick in the arse this team and the coaching staff need to realise that we are going nowhere unless we sort some s**t out in a hurry. What we produce over the next 2-4 weeks will tell us if a lesson has been learned and we can contend this year or if we will continue with the same old same old, underachieving with a gun list.
 
TOA. said:
Take the 2 best mids out of any team any they will be pretty average. Better days ahead for this year.
Click to expand...

And how many players were the Saints missing?

Quite a few.

They wanted it more than we did. Nothing more, nothing less.

So when will our group 'want it enough' to become consistent? THAT is the crux of the issue.

Look at us in 2018, look at Port, look at Sydney. Those successful efforts are on the back of youth being given opportunities, bringing enthusiasm to the side and the older guys lifting and being carried by the enthusiasm of youth.

That is not saying throw kids in before they are ready but it is a pretty good indicator that you need a decent amount of youth in the side pushing the older guys.
 
Dylan82 said:
Missing stoppage quality. Missing running capacity.

The first problem can't be fully addressed until Shuey and Yeo return - until then the club can only make the best of what is available - perhaps sacrifice a forward position to create an extra around the stoppages to prevent getting blown away.

The second problem can be addressed this week. Remove those who are currently incapable of running out a match at AFL level (Waterman, Jones, Winder etc) and replace them with players who will still be running strong over four quarters at that level.


The problem I feel isn't actually as bad as it is being made out to be - the system actually worked fine whilst the team was able to create a contest up the ground. However the club had several players who hit a wall during the third quarter and could no longer keep pace with their opposition counterparts. The Saints had to chase the game and thus committed extras around the stoppages in an attempt to create something.

Thus St Kilda ended up with overwhelming numbers around the ball in the second half, whilst West Coast appeared to be chasing shadows. Any time an Eagles' player won possession, the extras from the Saints were able to apply pressure and affect the disposal. Conversely, when a Saints' player took possession, those extras provided multiple outlets for a clean clearance and the opportunity to expose the defence in one-on-one match-ups.

It gets hard to maintain any territory when the opponent is able to get four extra players to each contest. The pressure builds up and mistakes inevitably follow, leading to opposition momentum and goals.


The problem against St Kilda (and also the Bulldogs) was more of selection rather than scheme. On both occasions the club went in overly tall and were overrun late by an opponent swarming the ball - and on both occasions the club didn't have the rotational options available to place the brakes upon the gathering momentum of the opposition.


West Coast are still a very good team. The problem is they are now 2-2 rather than 4-0, due to an issue which is self-inflicted.

The club really is its own worst enemy at the moment - it is incredibly frustrating.


Just two things need tweaking:
  • play to block-up the opponent and break-even in the middle - use a spare until Shuey and Yeo return
  • approach the rotations with a view of a marathon rather than a sprint - rather than thinking of how rotations will be used from the start, selection in this area should be guided by how they will be best used during the last quarter.

It is not as bad as it looks - however considerable damage has already been done that may well impact how the club ends up finishing this season.
Click to expand...
So, Dylan the main point i got out of your post is that you miss Chris Masten?
 
Why did we bring Waterman in? He played limited minutes in the WAFL coming back from injury so he was underdone and then we play him down back after losing Hurn.

Xon should have come in as a mid replacement to a mid being injured.

That was the most annoying loss since 2013 v Port when we were 35 points up at half time.
 
Couldn't win a clearance to save ourselves. No intensity around the ball.
No insiders, too many outside passengers.
No tackling pressure.
Playing too tall - which is normally ok but you have to be winning the clearance count.
Winder was another small forward we didn't need on the ground - why was he the sub? I have a strong distaste for debutants being used as the sub.

Without Shuey/Yeo in the picture, we probably need to switch it up a bit. Waterman should be dropped (last in first out approach) and we need another midfielder.

For all the knocking on Cripps I actually didn't mind his game. The guy was trying and the only one with some life in him that didn't seem content to just wait for the ball to come to him or watch the ball going the wrong way (ie Gaff).

Jones and Winder chop also for some runners, whoever they might be. Even Trew for a debut would be good (actual debut, not sub). Pies have a decimated midfield themselves so its not a bad opportunity to debut the kid.
 
Lack of midfield depth severely exposed for sure. But it was more than that on Saturday, the entire teams intensity dropped off regardless of where the ball was on the field. I reckon the players were stuffed. Which is a concern at round 4.
 
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