Strategy What is going wrong? A discussion of tactics, strategy and execution issues and how to fix them

[savagelunchbox]

Maybe we've just had bad luck with hotels while in the hub and each hotel has had "Closed for maintenance" on the door so our youth have been unable to keep their bodies physically toned like the other clubs.

#protecttheyoungsters

 

[Brishawk]

Maybe we've just had bad luck with hotels while in the hub and each hotel has had "Closed for maintenance" on the door so our youth have been unable to keep their bodies physically toned like the other clubs.

#protecttheyoungsters

Have you considered that maybe you are deliberately twisting what people have said in regards to playing youth? No one, not even clarko, has said don’t play youth. No one has said don’t give them a go in the middle. There is a mental and physical toll taken playing senior afl football. All clarko has tried to do is minimise that toll while players are developing. Exactly what happened and is happening at the lions right now.

lyons and Neale dominate stats like disposals, tackles, clearances, and contested possessions. Apart from berry and mcccluggage, you don’t see any of their younger players appearing in multiple top 10s for these stats. The heavy lifting is done by mature players in all teams.

if you think our defence is bad now, watch what happens if you take all the senior players out. Little gaps are big problems. We can see it this year our zone is not near as effective this year as it was last year. We strangled teams all of last year even when we lost.

im sure we will see a few others rotated into the side. Personally I’d like like to see the balance swing a little more to youth but it doesn’t phase me that much. the youth we have is largely not top end talent that is ready for senior footy. Those players take longer to develop and need more support. Patience is required.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Day alone has shown that we don't need to not play the youngsters to protect them. He's the least physically developed of all of our youngsters.

 

[eldorado]

Day alone has shown that we don't need to not play the youngsters to protect them. He's the least physically developed of all of our youngsters.

They are individuals, not a uniform group with uniform traits

Day shows that when they have the qualities that stamp them as ready to play, they will play

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

Brishawk
I don't think this thread is going the way the OP set out.
Not much in the way of tactics being discussed.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Horses for courses as Eldo suggests.

Some players will need support around them, whether that is physical or psychological. Guidance. Encouragement.
This was said to be one of the issues with Burton that was identified once Hodge was no longer next to him barking orders, as he became a lesser player and would pick and choose when to go.

Day is obviously physically smaller than most, but has the flair and confidence to play at the level. That much is clear.

Glass and CJ look to me like players that need reassurance and guidance from senior heads to keep at it. Ollie seems somewhat similar, but also has a bit of flair, so maybe he’s not needing the guidance or “protection” as much. Cousins loos to relish the contest, but also may need more leadership around him so that he’s pushing defensively.
It’s not always about physical attributes.

There’s a multitude of reasons you don’t just throw a bunch of kids into the side and hope that their natural footy instincts take hold. The 2019 Suns amongst other sides already mentioned were an example of this, and Hawthorn are not the only side who consider just how many kids playing together is sustainable before it becomes detrimental to their development or the team psyche.

 

[Brishawk]

Day alone has shown that we don't need to not play the youngsters to protect them. He's the least physically developed of all of our youngsters.

You are only seeing the players in the seniors that Clarko wants you to see and only as many as he is willing to tolerate in the team at once. You can't extrapolate that adding more youth will see them all perform like Day or that it won't have any negative consequences. Don't get me wrong, most likely we can drop one or more of Burgoyne, Stratton and Frawley and cover them with players like Hartley, Moore and Finn without ushering in catastrophe but at the end of the day I'm going to back the club in because they know the players we have and if they are ready. Day and Morris, and Anderson and Morrison before them, are proof that Clarko will kids who he thinks are ready and in a team that can support them. It isn't just about the players that are missing but also the players that are in the side already.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

You are only seeing the players in the seniors that Clarko wants you to see and only as many as he is willing to tolerate in the team at once. You can't extrapolate that adding more youth will see them all perform like Day or that it won't have any negative consequences. Don't get me wrong, most likely we can drop one or more of Burgoyne, Stratton and Frawley and cover them with players like Hartley, Moore and Finn without ushering in catastrophe but at the end of the day I'm going to back the club in because they know the players we have and if they are ready. Day and Morris, and Anderson and Morrison before them, are proof that Clarko will kids who he thinks are ready and in a team that can support them. It isn't just about the players that are missing but also the players that are in the side already.

I'm not saying that they will come in and perform like Day.

What I am pointing out is that he's the least physically developed of all of them though, and he's shown that despite his lack of size he's needed no protection from any older players.

It seems to me that the older players are hardly providing any guidance or support anyway. I don't see how he's protecting Finn and Morris by not playing them, if anything it's just hindering their development due to the lack of meaningful matches that they are playing.

 

[Walshawk]

Brishawk
I don't think this thread is going the way the OP set out.
Not much in the way of tactics being discussed.

Our defensive zone game plan is outdated and relies on a group of highly intelligent players (e.g. Sam, Hodge, Gibson, Birchall and Lewis) to make sure everyone is in the right spots and doing their job. We simply don’t have that caliber of players. It is also very taxing physically which is why our players have all trimmed down, and gone for endurance, making us the physically weakest team in the league.
Our attacking game plan (switching) relies on excellent foot skills (e.g. Sam, Hodge, Gibson, Birchall and Lewis). We simply don’t have that caliber of players.
We keep recruiting players with less than average decision making and disposal (Tom, JOM, Frost). Our game plan does not suit our current team.
The top clubs are moving it quickly. We are trying to play like 2013 -15 without the type of players that made it work in 2013 - 15. We are like Bjorn Borg continuing to use a wooden racquets in the 1980s.
If we can’t get enough elite players, we need to change the game plan. We should try to do both.

 

[Brishawk]

I'm not saying that they will come in and perform like Day.

What I am pointing out is that he's the least physically developed of all of them though, and he's shown that despite his lack of size he's needed no protection from any older players.

It seems to me that the older players are hardly providing any guidance or support anyway. I don't see how he's protecting Finn and Morris by not playing them, if anything it's just hindering their development due to the lack of meaningful matches that they are playing.

I’m not sure we are talking about the same kind of protection. Day gets to play an attacking game. But what happens when we Drop Stratton and trial one of the young players to play his four defensive game? Hard going physically because you are having to put your body on the line more going third man up. Hard going mentally because you are now under more pressure more often.

Berry for lions is a great young player but he doesn’t shoulder the main midfield role. Onoccasions he does buthe isn’t under the same pressure (physical and mental) to be the main ball winner every week and every play. The mature bodies do the heavy lifting while the young learn from them how it is done and contribute in their own way.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

Our defensive zone game plan is outdated and relies on a group of highly intelligent players (e.g. Sam, Hodge, Gibson, Birchall and Lewis) to make sure everyone is in the right spots and doing their job. We simply don’t have that caliber of players. It is also very taxing physically which is why our players have all trimmed down, and gone for endurance, making us the physically weakest team in the league.
Our attacking game plan (switching) relies on excellent foot skills (e.g. Sam, Hodge, Gibson, Birchall and Lewis). We simply don’t have that caliber of players.
We keep recruiting players with less than average decision making and disposal (Tom, JOM, Frost). Our game plan does not suit our current team.
The top clubs are moving it quickly. We are trying to play like 2013 -15 without the type of players that made it work in 2013 - 15. We are like Bjorn Borg continuing to use a wooden racquets in the 1980s.
If we can’t get enough elite players, we need to change the game plan. We should try to do both.

Yeah but can you remember how much those first aluminum rackets weighed.

 

[Walshawk]

Yeah but can you remember how much those first aluminum rackets weighed.

Guys like Phil Dent were banging down 200k serves. BB had no chance.

 

[crazywildhorse]

Have by any chance taken a look at the history of the demons post about 2000? Loaded up on youth a few times. Top of draft youth. And floundered for two decades apart from the odd season. Gold Coast have churned through a stack of players in the same way. Carlton lost an entire generation of players. It has happened a lot. Those that make it through will be hardened but it will burn a lot of players. It isn’t clarko’s way.

Clarko did it and it did burn a few players. Josh Thurgood and Ryan Schoenmakers are a couple that got absolutely tossed to the dogs and became whipping boys. I think Ryan would still be playing if it wasn’t for that.

 

[TylerDurden]

Clarko did it and it did burn a few players. Josh Thurgood and Ryan Schoenmakers are a couple that got absolutely tossed to the dogs and became whipping boys. I think Ryan would still be playing if it wasn’t for that.

Zac Dawson.

 

[Brishawk]

Clarko did it and it did burn a few players. Josh Thurgood and Ryan Schoenmakers are a couple that got absolutely tossed to the dogs and became whipping boys. I think Ryan would still be playing if it wasn’t for that.

On average it has been a poor strategy. I think clarko has learned that lesson.

 

[Gralin]

Clarko did it and it did burn a few players. Josh Thurgood and Ryan Schoenmakers are a couple that got absolutely tossed to the dogs and became whipping boys. I think Ryan would still be playing if it wasn’t for that.

Schoey doing a knee was the bigger issue. His body broke down and they stacked the weight in early, did it to Rough and Bud too and then went the other way hard.

Dawson he maybe destroyed.

 

[KermitJagger]

Schoey doing a knee was the bigger issue. His body broke down and they stacked the weight in early, did it to Rough and Bud too and then went the other way hard.

Dawson he maybe destroyed.

I think if the club had their time again with Schoey they'd have played him at the HFF and left him there forever. Was easily his best role, but by the time it came around for him in 2015 it was too late. Schoe had a lot of natural skill and speed but the club stacked weight on him which effectively robbed him of that and likely contributed to his injuries.

We've been a lot smarter with player development in recent times.

 

[TylerDurden]

I think if the club had their time again with Schoey they'd have played him at the HFF and left him there forever. Was easily his best role, but by the time it came around for him in 2015 it was too late. Schoe had a lot of natural skill and speed but the club stacked weight on him which effectively robbed him of that and likely contributed to his injuries.

We've been a lot smarter with player development in recent times.

Part due to necessity when Croad retired and Gilham copped a serious knee injury. We literally had no one. Then Gibbo and Stratts arrived. Brian a bit later. We had to plug holes with Tom Murphy etc. Wasn't easy.

 

[Delecate Des]

Part due to necessity when Croad retired and Gilham copped a serious knee injury. We literally had no one. Then Gibbo and Stratts arrived. Brian a bit later. We had to plug holes with Tom Murphy etc. Wasn't easy.

Correct, and without the mature body he was always going to struggle against anyone with decent size and strength!! But he always gave his all and I had Shoey as one of best in 2012 Grand Final! Bloody shame his knee went when it did, should have a couple more flags?

 

[Kil Phearns]

Really Schoey showed a tremendous amount of loyalty to the club given the way we treated him. Was as selfless as anyone from that recent glory era.

 

[KermitJagger]

Really Schoey showed a tremendous amount of loyalty to the club given the way we treated him. Was as selfless as anyone from that recent glory era.

Reckon poor Whitecross takes the all-time selflessness crown at the club. Missed out on 4 premierships and still played a positive role.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Really Schoey showed a tremendous amount of loyalty to the club given the way we treated him. Was as selfless as anyone from that recent glory era.

Great seeing Schoey talked in fond terms around these parts. Was the original and all-time biggest whipping boy on this forum, even during the threepete era. Would make the way people talk about TOB today seem very tame.

 

[Davo-27]

I think our midfield set up is wrong and here's why

*we currently have 2 wings, 2 contested mids, 1 attacking mid and 1 defensive mid

Tom Mitchell and James Worpel are the contested mids, JOM the attacking mid, Shiels the defensive mid

This set up is not attacking enough, most teams have moved away from taggers and defensive mids as its more important for mids to win centre clearances and the i50 battles

*a more modern midfield is 2 wings, 1 contested mid, 3 attacking mids

It gives our midfield more of an attacking flair with the ability of an attacking mid to rest forward to provide goal kicking support to the forward line, defensive mids are out of favour in general and gives us the ability to spread from midfield more effectively

 

[VernonSpots]

We have two major problems: 1) Midfield that has little penetration and accuracy into our fwd line and 2) Fwdline that struggles when it's on ground (eg Patton, Lewis, Ceglar / McEvoy.

We either upscale our midfield to suit our deficient fwd line or change out fwd mix to favour agility and ground speed to cover our deficient midfield. We can't have both as they collective issue is far worse than the individual parts.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

I think our midfield set up is wrong and here's why

*we currently have 2 wings, 2 contested mids, 1 attacking mid and 1 defensive mid

Tom Mitchell and James Worpel are the contested mids, JOM the attacking mid, Shiels the defensive mid

This set up is not attacking enough, most teams have moved away from taggers and defensive mids as its more important for mids to win centre clearances and the i50 battles

*a more modern midfield is 2 wings, 1 contested mid, 3 attacking mids

It gives our midfield more of an attacking flair with the ability of an attacking mid to rest forward to provide goal kicking support to the forward line, defensive mids are out of favour in general and gives us the ability to spread from midfield more effectively

I don't classify JOM as an attacking mid so this is even a bigger blight on your analysis which I agree with. Centre square is on balance much more roll the dice these days offensively. Take risks get the ball into space and use speed. Think about our key mids in relation to the last sentence.