When can we contend again?

[Cobbler]

AT the very least a serious restructure of recruitment should be happening. We are staring at bottom four and should not be in this position. The club didn't embrace professionalism and shed its old image to return to lack of competitiveness.

Yeah I don't get how Bigfooty (with all respect to us posters) could foresee this 12 months ago and the club couldn't.

I'm not talking about how severe the drop was, but every week many here were saying introduce some youth etc, especially when we were playing well. What angers me is Ross stating we want the youngsters to learn and play the right way. Well what an opportunity we had last year!

Blind freddy could see Suban, DeBoer, Mzungu, Pearce C were not going to develop further.

Josh Simpson oozes x factor and he may have eventually shown his true colours anyway, but Ross makes statements like 'you play your way in and you play your way out' we all sit and admire him, but on reflection he contradicts himself often.

 

[Cobbler]

When Fyfe is our captain.

He was the last 2-3 weeks?

 

[free tara brown]

Yeah I don't get how Bigfooty (with all respect to us posters) could foresee this 12 months ago and the club couldn't.

I'm not talking about how severe the drop was, but every week many here were saying introduce some youth etc, especially when we were playing well. What angers me is Ross stating we want the youngsters to learn and play the right way. Well what an opportunity we had last year!

Blind freddy could see Suban, DeBoer, Mzungu, Pearce C were not going to develop further.

Josh Simpson oozes x factor and he may have eventually shown his true colours anyway, but Ross makes statements like 'you play your way in and you play your way out' we all sit and admire him, but on reflection he contradicts himself often.

I hope that the coaching staff was aware of this and decided there was little they could do about it - that the cliff was coming and the best approach was to still push for a premiership with the most experienced and well-drilled side possible, to hell with the future because that drop was coming anyway.

I don't agree with that strategy per se, but it's a hell of a lot more palatable than the idea that amateur outsiders could spot this on its way better than paid professionals.

 

[Cobbler]

I hope that the coaching staff was aware of this and decided there was little they could do about it - that the cliff was coming and the best approach was to still push for a premiership with the most experienced and well-drilled side possible, to hell with the future because that drop was coming anyway.

I don't agree with that strategy per se, but it's a hell of a lot more palatable than the idea that amateur outsiders could spot this on its way better than paid professionals.

Don't get me wrong. I was a massive advocate for the if it ain't broken don't try to fix it routine.

At 9-0 when all the calls came every week to drop certain players I was one who couldn't understand the logic etc.

I think players like Suban were made to look ok because the side was flying. Deep down we all wanted to see the Weller, Langdon etc types but why drop a winning formula was the mentality.

In hindsight from how it looks now there were some players that were never going to improve, so why didn't we try to find a solution when we were flying?

Weller is just going about OK but you can see the massive upside in him. Alex Pearce also. Even Crozier shows that there could be upside in him.

Imagine where Weller would be now with 10 games behind him from last year and with a winning side.

Anyway, it's all easy in hindsight.

 

[Scham]

He was the last 2-3 weeks?

Stand in.

Real. Voted in. Captain.

 

[kp junior]

Don't get me wrong. I was a massive advocate for the if it ain't broken don't try to fix it routine.

At 9-0 when all the calls came every week to drop certain players I was one who couldn't understand the logic etc.

I think players like Suban were made to look ok because the side was flying. Deep down we all wanted to see the Weller, Langdon etc types but why drop a winning formula was the mentality.

In hindsight from how it looks now there were some players that were never going to improve, so why didn't we try to find a solution when we were flying?

Weller is just going about OK but you can see the massive upside in him. Alex Pearce also. Even Crozier shows that there could be upside in him.

Imagine where Weller would be now with 10 games behind him from last year and with a winning side.

Anyway, it's all easy in hindsight.

It wasn't in hindsight last year of course

 

[Freeeoo]

Things can change very quickly for good or bad.

 

[free tara brown]

Don't get me wrong. I was a massive advocate for the if it ain't broken don't try to fix it routine.

At 9-0 when all the calls came every week to drop certain players I was one who couldn't understand the logic etc.

I think players like Suban were made to look ok because the side was flying. Deep down we all wanted to see the Weller, Langdon etc types but why drop a winning formula was the mentality.

In hindsight from how it looks now there were some players that were never going to improve, so why didn't we try to find a solution when we were flying?

Weller is just going about OK but you can see the massive upside in him. Alex Pearce also. Even Crozier shows that there could be upside in him.

Imagine where Weller would be now with 10 games behind him from last year and with a winning side.

Anyway, it's all easy in hindsight.

I understand the logic to the bolded, but I think that even when you are winning, you need to find a way to improve. Some of the most dominant teams in the league over the past 10 years have collapsed on the big day (Geelong 08, St Kilda 09, Collingwood 11), and I think that even if you have no obvious challengers, you need to find a way to challenge yourself.

As much as I understand not fiddling with a winning side, we had a patch of 4-5 games against weaker clubs where we played Suban and De Boer as sub. Mediocre, 100 gamers, playing in the spot that the rest of the comp gave to debutants and youth. What was that about?

 

[wayToGo_]

Our 2016 is feeling a bit like Game of Thrones. Most of our favourite characters are getting killed off and we have no idea how the story is going to play out. Some good but mostly bad it seems, and we'll be left with mostly the youngsters, who have taken some time to develop, but have become warriors because of the tough journey.

 

[PowerToThePurpl]

Upon review there are positions that absolutely need attending too before even considering contending again. I'm no expert, but this is what I've observed.

Obvious one is a Key Forward, we've had this issue for a long time which Pavlich has been keeping above his shoulders, but unfortunately the great man is inevitably retiring at the end of this year. Replacement wise, we have in our stocks Matt Taberner and Michael Apeness, in the draft there is Josh Battle, and trade wise there is Cale Hooker (as either a Key Defender or Key Forward) and Jesse Hogan. Hogan I see as an unrealistic prospect without losing an A grade player, even if he does request a trade home.

Second one which hasn't been addressed enough as it should be is our small forwards. Of course we have Walters, but Ballantyne's best is way behind him when we aim to be contending in a couple years, where he's either 1. Dropped from the squad or 2. Retired. He needs to be replaced and we have no one in the stocks to replace him.

Thirdly our Ruck stocks. Sandilands has been a monster throughout his career but that career will unfortunately be coming to an end before we've rebuilt our squad, same applies to Griffin. We have Hannath, Z. Clarke, and arguably Apeness (who may be kept busy as a Key Forward and not a genuine Ruck) who are young enough to fill in that Ruck role for a future contending squad, problem is, they both neither set the world on fire, unlike Sandilands who I think we've taken for granted. To fix this? Draft in some tall prospects, looking at Luke Strnadica and Jeremy Goddard for this year.

Lastly a Key Defender. Dawson is heading the same way as the rest of the veterans and won't be showing off his golden fist once we're contending again. Collins is a good prospect, but he's a long way to go. Ibbotson and Spurr will be on the cusp of retirement, but we arguably have ready-made replacements already with Grey and Hughes.

The rest of the positions we should be in some decent shape for the next coming years, besides maybe Mundy which depends on how well he's tracking, and if he does decide to hang the boots we have Blakely waiting in the wings to pounce.

Guys who will be retiring, or, their best being behind them by the time we're contending again which will preferably be in the next 2 - 3 years are:
Pavlich, Johnson, Dawson, Ballantyne, Sandilands. Barlow*, D. Pearce*, Mundy*. * Meaning they might still be around to play a role.

 

[Carnthedockers]

Yeah I don't get how Bigfooty (with all respect to us posters) could foresee this 12 months ago and the club couldn't.

I'm not talking about how severe the drop was, but every week many here were saying introduce some youth etc, especially when we were playing well. What angers me is Ross stating we want the youngsters to learn and play the right way. Well what an opportunity we had last year!

Blind freddy could see Suban, DeBoer, Mzungu, Pearce C were not going to develop further.

Josh Simpson oozes x factor and he may have eventually shown his true colours anyway, but Ross makes statements like 'you play your way in and you play your way out' we all sit and admire him, but on reflection he contradicts himself often.

The statement that frustrates me the most, is when ross says "If you look at the top clubs, such as Hawthorn, they make their youth wait in the 2s for a long period to earn their stripes". But last time I checked, we dont have a star studded midfield, or a couple of power forwards!
I also think that Clarkson has the balls to make the tough calls, an example is dropping Sewell for Langford heading into finals, or playing Brad Hill from day dot. It seems that ross will only give this opportunity if his hand is forced. There also seems to be 1 rule for some, and another rule for others. Has Ibbotson really been worse than Dawson? That missed kick by Dawson in the first couple of minutes set the tone for the day yesterday. Listening to Paul Haselby, he is bewildered how Zac continues to get a game.

 

[Deathly]

We will bounce back and contest next year. It's a disaster season when you try to implement a new game plan and style and then you have injuries stall the entire process, we're talking core / spine player injuries that are crucial for this. I wouldn't be surprised if what we were trying to do and fix, from the first 2 games has been completely shelved and we're working on something new right now that involves playing and exposing our entire player list.

You can already lock-in us being the big winners during this years off-season, we just need to grind through the rest of this season. I'm certain everyone is of the same mind-set and on the same page right now between our clubs four walls.

Also, expect Hill to be out for a stretch soon on top of an already stacked Injury List. We'll reload in 2017 with upgrades across the ground.

 

[Cobbler]

The statement that frustrates me the most, is when ross says "If you look at the top clubs, such as Hawthorn, they make their youth wait in the 2s for a long period to earn their stripes". But last time I checked, we dont have a star studded midfield, or a couple of power forwards!
I also think that Clarkson has the balls to make the tough calls, an example is dropping Sewell for Langford heading into finals, or playing Brad Hill from day dot. It seems that ross will only give this opportunity if his hand is forced. There also seems to be 1 rule for some, and another rule for others. Has Ibbotson really been worse than Dawson? That missed kick by Dawson in the first couple of minutes set the tone for the day yesterday. Listening to Paul Haselby, he is bewildered how Zac continues to get a game.

Yep Ibbo seemed like he didn't get as much love as others in our team. There's obviously more to it. We don't know who has come back from pre-season out of shape, who does what around the club, who is playing out of position, who won't alter their style.

There would have to be more to it then simply a few errors in a game.

I'll use Taberner again as my example. Yeah he had some brain fades and missed targets but he led up and provided an avenue out. I can't imagine it's then up to him to try to center the ball and create. I'll be annoyed if he is dropped as I thought he showed good signs and must simply get continuity into his game.

Zac is simply a lock down defender and does it ok, but we should seriously look at moving on from this too.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

The statement that frustrates me the most, is when ross says "If you look at the top clubs, such as Hawthorn, they make their youth wait in the 2s for a long period to earn their stripes". But last time I checked, we dont have a star studded midfield, or a couple of power forwards!
I also think that Clarkson has the balls to make the tough calls, an example is dropping Sewell for Langford heading into finals, or playing Brad Hill from day dot. It seems that ross will only give this opportunity if his hand is forced. There also seems to be 1 rule for some, and another rule for others. Has Ibbotson really been worse than Dawson? That missed kick by Dawson in the first couple of minutes set the tone for the day yesterday. Listening to Paul Haselby, he is bewildered how Zac continues to get a game.

While I agree broadly with your sentiment, how is this in any way a useful comparison?

Zac Dawson is 197cm and 92kg.

Garrick Ibbotson is 186cm and 81kg.

What on earth is anyone, let along Paul Haselby, smoking when they seriously suggest that Dawson should be dropped. Let alone such a comparison with Ibbo, who is at best a 3rd tall-ish defender and more of an intercept marking type...

 

[Carnthedockers]

While I agree broadly with your sentiment, how is this in any way a useful comparison?

Zac Dawson is 197cm and 92kg.

Garrick Ibbotson is 186cm and 81kg.

What on earth is anyone, let along Paul Haselby, smoking when they seriously suggest that Dawson should be dropped. Let alone such a comparison with Ibbo, who is at best a 3rd tall-ish defender and more of an intercept marking type...

I just feel, that we severely lack ball movement from our back half, and Dawson is in a large part to blame. I'm sure you will prove me wrong, but what other team has a defender in their back half, who simply can't dispose of the ball? The game has gone away from carrying a lock down defender.

 

[FreoBulldog]

I think we will bounce back fairly quickly, provided we use this period of shiteness to draft a decent forward ( or somehow pull a rabbit out of our hat and get Hogan) and ( hopefully) finalise a trade for McCarthy and pickup some plug and play wafl players. Sandi has hinted he would like to play at least two more years, we could rookie list a promising ruckman and give him time to develop while Sandi is still around. I could be totally wrong of course.

 

[Unique Name]

I just feel, that we severely lack ball movement from our back half, and Dawson is in a large part to blame. I'm sure you will prove me wrong, but what other team has a defender in their back half, who simply can't dispose of the ball? The game has gone away from carrying a lock down defender.

Ibbotson will not help us move the ball forward. He has shown an elite ability to intercept and read the incoming ball but he is average at best when moving the ball forward. Not skill wise (He's got a decent kick) I think he is just unable to 'see' where the play can open up quickly enough to take advantage. He either goes for the safe option or the long bomb to a contest on the wing (He's hardly alone in that aspect though).

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I just feel, that we severely lack ball movement from our back half, and Dawson is in a large part to blame. I'm sure you will prove me wrong, but what other team has a defender in their back half, who simply can't dispose of the ball? The game has gone away from carrying a lock down defender.

I sort of agree with you there, but I think it is more a function of the collective skill of the back six. Ibbo is not the best user by foot either (obviously he is better than Dawson). I feel you can carry a Dawson type when you have McPharlin, a fit Johnno and Duffield kicking the ball out of defence. So it is more now that our deficiency there is exposed with respect to Dawson.

The other half of the coin though, is to have extent do you want us to be able to match up on the opposition KPFs. If we dropped Dawson next week, then it's Alex Pearce, Ibbo and Spurr/Sutty vs Tex, Josh Jenkins and Tom Lynch? Don't think that's a realistic option. Until we have another 192+cm 90+kg defender who can kick, we're better off with the Zac (in addition to A Pearce).

To an extent I think a lot of teams have defenders who are really average kicks. Grundy isn't the best kick. I think the Eagles would rather not have Eric McKenzie kick. Ditto Adelaide and Talia. Frawley isn't the most accurate kick. Dawson is just the most egregious example. However on the other side, you have guys like Jackson Trengove, McGovern senior and Rance who can hoof it 55m to advantage. Critically I think, those that do have a KPD who can't kick, have the elite footskills in the backline to cover it.

 

[free at last]

I just feel, that we severely lack ball movement from our back half, and Dawson is in a large part to blame. I'm sure you will prove me wrong, but what other team has a defender in their back half, who simply can't dispose of the ball? The game has gone away from carrying a lock down defender.

Agree....we can't turn defence into offence quick enough.

 

[Silent Alarm]

If we land Hooker and McCarthy we could easily be in the mix again next year. Pretty much everything that can go wrong has gone wrong this year. Mundy, Bennell, Sandilands and Fyfe would be 4 of our 6 most important players.

Quick fixes have ****ed us up since day dot. We should do our first full rebuild IMO.

 

[Silent Alarm]

Bond has been there too long.

Who is responsible for keeping list cloggers like griffin mzungu hannath etc

Finally people are realising this.

You look at the state of the list, and instead of it being nicely balanced with an intention of slow age progression you've ended up with 18-22 year olds who have barely played, absolute spuds in the middle age bracket ala Clarke, then a brigade who should be at their peak but peaked in averageness four years ago ala DeBoer, and then old plodders doing way way too much for their age ala Pav. It is seriously woeful.

That's without mentioning his disruptive, ignorant, and dumb lack of recruiting KPPs especially forwards.

 

[T0ecutter]

I hope that the coaching staff was aware of this and decided there was little they could do about it - that the cliff was coming and the best approach was to still push for a premiership with the most experienced and well-drilled side possible, to hell with the future because that drop was coming anyway.

You'd certainly hope they didn't think like that. There were options to play younger less experienced players without compromising the entire 'crusade' for a premiership.

I don't agree with that strategy per se, but it's a hell of a lot more palatable than the idea that amateur outsiders could spot this on its way better than paid professionals.

It wasn't just the amateur outsiders on BF thou. The media was also asking questions to which Lyon, Bond and co weaselled around with straight faces. Even the ultimate amateur in Brad Johnson has been proved correct with his prediction.

 

[Tony_Clifton]

Next year. Spud it up enough this year, give injuries extra time to come right, play our cards right and slingshot next year with post season leverage. We've got a free season to change the game plan to something that will be best whilst losing games in the meantime. Are draft concessions finally over? If so, we have timed it well. Maybe Pav might retire after the next win at home. What, me worry?

 

[Admiral Byng]

2017 is go.

 

[salim malik]

Next year. Spud it up enough this year, give injuries extra time to come right, play our cards right and slingshot next year with post season leverage. We've got a free season to change the game plan to something that will be best whilst losing games in the meantime. Are draft concessions finally over? If so, we have timed it well. Maybe Pav might retire after the next win at home. What, me worry?

Don't forget the easier draw .