When can we contend again?

[FreoMonocle]

AT the very least a serious restructure of recruitment should be happening. We are staring at bottom four and should not be in this position. The club didn't embrace professionalism and shed its old image to return to lack of competitiveness.

Just reminding you that the recruiters gave us a team that has played finals for the last few years, had a crack at the flag and finished top of the ladder last year. This list might not be capable of top 4 right now, but it is not a bottom 4 list, our current woes lie between a new game plan/new coaches, injuries and the players brains - and unforeseen rule changes that reward teams loaded with gazelles instead of contested brutes. Can't hang the recruiters for those things.

Also can't blame the recruiters for most of the injuries and suspensions that have our starting 22 compromised at the moment with most of the best of our core midfield now out. (and wouldn't we have loved to have Mora on the park for all of these years and an experienced player for us right now, Apeness would be handy).

Yes they could have brought in some more key position players, but they have been compromised by having low draft picks for years and the expansion teams stockpiling all of the competitions best key position players in drafts for 6 years haven't made that easy (we aren't the only club hungry for kpp's as a consequence of expansion).

 

[FreoMonocle]

I just feel, that we severely lack ball movement from our back half, and Dawson is in a large part to blame. I'm sure you will prove me wrong, but what other team has a defender in their back half, who simply can't dispose of the ball? The game has gone away from carrying a lock down defender.

Obviously changes post Luke. But Dawson allowed Johno to be a loose man in defence. Able to casually go and interecept marks and dispose unhindered, so Dawsons disposal wasn't particularly that much of an issue as it was offset by the good disposal he enabled elsewhere (and when he did have it, simply pass it off to someone who does have good disposal).

Johno isn't as loose this year and our midfield has been sloppy, if we keep letting the ball go zinging in to defence, they will make errors. As a consequence of upfield issues, all of our defenders have looked under pressure instead of the cool, calm and collected bunch we are used to seeing.

 

[FreoMonocle]

We've been reliant on Pav as a sole forward target for close to a decade, and in that time we've picked up Houghton and Apeness (might be missing one) as the only possible replacements in the ND.

As well as the following

traded for
Tarrant in Oct 2006 (still within your decade)
Jack Anthony
Scott Gumbleton. Not a serious recruitment, but worth a try for the price.

ND
Mora was a like for like of Pav, height build and talent.
Tabs
Alex Pearce. We recruited as a defender, but has a history pre-freo as a forward.

Then we have Mr Irish (Hurley). Still needs time, but could be a decent forward.

 

[Patty_Moz]

I feel we have to replace 30-40%+ of our current list with question marks over a number of others. This will take 3-4 years at least.

Even in best case scenarios rebuilds take 8-10 years and it was always going to be tough over the next 5-6 years as GC and GWS start to come of age.

So IMO even if we somehow manage to land Hogan plus a number of other high quality trades (which is highly unlikely) we can possibly compete again in 4-5 years but more likely it's going to be that 8-10 year bracket.

 

[Scham]

Obviously changes post Luke. But Dawson allowed Johno to be a loose man in defence. Able to casually go and interecept marks and dispose unhindered, so Dawsons disposal wasn't particularly that much of an issue as it was offset by the good disposal he enabled elsewhere (and when he did have it, simply pass it off to someone who does have good disposal).

Johno isn't as loose this year and our midfield has been sloppy, if we keep letting the ball go zinging in to defence, they will make errors. As a consequence of upfield issues, all of our defenders have looked under pressure instead of the cool, calm and collected bunch we are used to seeing.

Losing Duffield hurts also

 

[Scham]

As well as the following

traded for
Tarrant in Oct 2006 (still within your decade)
Jack Anthony
Scott Gumbleton. Not a serious recruitment, but worth a try for the price.

ND
Mora was a like for like of Pav, height build and talent.
Tabs
Apeness. We recruited as a defender, but has a history pre-freo as a forward.

Then we have Mr Irish (Hurley). Still needs time, but could be a decent forward.

Apeness was recruited as a Forward/Ruck

 

[FreoMonocle]

Apeness was recruited as a Forward/Ruck

My bad, was Alex Pearce that I meant, will go back and edit. Was trying to fill in the other forwards for the poster.

 

[catstragic]

Im no fremantle expert (as you can tell by my name) but from outside looking in I think that its unlikely freo will be a contender for few years. Its not just about how much the club can improve its list, but about how much the club can improve its list relative to the opposition.(GWS-SCARY, Hell even Melbourne are scary potentially)

Freo has a very talented core of midfielders, but the entire spine is getting on in years. For comparison the Pies have a midfield that out punches just about everyone other than Sydney, but because of their weakness in the spine they struggle in big games(well they did last year, this year they have possibly regressed).

Given that the team is still trying to figure out who will be their future ruck/KPB/KPF (let alone getting 50-80 games of development into them) Hanging onto freo's star players in the short term will win some games, keep the supporters happier and make the team more competitive in the short term but make it very difficult to get a premiership.

The biggest asset freo has is a strong Head coach and dedicated fan base. If you compare the posts on this thread with whats going on the richmond page you will see what I mean.

I would suggest trading your players with currency for early draft picks or high potential players like Hogan.
Also, its not like Freo hasnt been trying to bring in talented KPP's its just that they havnt been able to get any of the deals over the line.
Obviously the list management is aware of the issues, but for whatever reason they havnt been able to lock anyone down.

I would be a bit nervous over Lyon's statement that they just need a few changes to become contenders again. The team was built for a style of game play that's been officiated out, and the players will struggle to become elite kicks and endurance sprinters overnight.

anyway, my 2C.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I feel we have to replace 30-40%+ of our current list with question marks over a number of others. This will take 3-4 years at least.

Even in best case scenarios rebuilds take 8-10 years and it was always going to be tough over the next 5-6 years as GC and GWS start to come of age.

So IMO even if we somehow manage to land Hogan plus a number of other high quality trades (which is highly unlikely) we can possibly compete again in 4-5 years but more likely it's going to be that 8-10 year bracket.

8-10 years isn't a rebuild. That's a generation of turnover. It's not going to take 8-10 years unless our management Melbournes its way around the next couple of years.

4 years max IMO. That's about how long it's taken the Saints (last competitive 2011, now competitive in 2016), the Dogs (last competitive in 2010, competitive 2015). In both cases I think our list is generally better positioned, with a midfield group right up top of the comp (when fit), with fewer holes than those guys had.

If it's 8-10 years then we may as well trade Fyfe, Neale, Walters, Hill and Bennell for picks now, because they're going to be retired when we are next competitive.

 

[Square Peg]

8-10 years isn't a rebuild. That's a generation of turnover. It's not going to take 8-10 years unless our management Melbournes its way around the next couple of years.

4 years max IMO. That's about how long it's taken the Saints (last competitive 2011, now competitive in 2016), the Dogs (last competitive in 2010, competitive 2015). In both cases I think our list is generally better positioned, with a midfield group right up top of the comp (when fit), with fewer holes than those guys had.

If it's 8-10 years then we may as well trade Fyfe, Neale, Walters, Hill and Bennell for picks now, because they're going to be retired when we are next competitive.

I interpreted the thread as being about when can we next contend, not when can we be competitive. The bulldogs weren't contenders last year (and some would argue weren't in 2010 even though they made a prelim) and the saints aren't this year.

 

[Grape Bear]

Dawson will stay because he has an incriminating photo of Ross

That was Suban. Obviously Ross has found it and torn it up.

 

[estibador]

Our 2016 is feeling a bit like Game of Thrones. Most of our favourite characters are getting killed off and we have no idea how the story is going to play out. Some good but mostly bad it seems, and we'll be left with mostly the youngsters, who have taken some time to develop, but have become warriors because of the tough journey.

Does that make Mayne and D.Pearce the Boltons? Everyone wants them dead but they keep surviving and butchering everything they touch.

 

[Grape Bear]

8-10 years isn't a rebuild. That's a generation of turnover. It's not going to take 8-10 years unless our management Melbournes its way around the next couple of years.

4 years max IMO. That's about how long it's taken the Saints (last competitive 2011, now competitive in 2016), the Dogs (last competitive in 2010, competitive 2015). In both cases I think our list is generally better positioned, with a midfield group right up top of the comp (when fit), with fewer holes than those guys had.

If it's 8-10 years then we may as well trade Fyfe, Neale, Walters, Hill and Bennell for picks now, because they're going to be retired when we are next competitive.

it's where the holes are, though. Midfield is the engine room, and we have the core of a good one but our spine cupboard is bare and they take more time to grow. I agree with you, though, provided our current stars who knew the successful culture stay the course and bring up the young ones, we'll be competing before the end of Ross's tenure.

 

[Patty_Moz]

8-10 years isn't a rebuild. That's a generation of turnover. It's not going to take 8-10 years unless our management Melbournes its way around the next couple of years.

4 years max IMO. That's about how long it's taken the Saints (last competitive 2011, now competitive in 2016), the Dogs (last competitive in 2010, competitive 2015). In both cases I think our list is generally better positioned, with a midfield group right up top of the comp (when fit), with fewer holes than those guys had.

If it's 8-10 years then we may as well trade Fyfe, Neale, Walters, Hill and Bennell for picks now, because they're going to be retired when we are next competitive.

I guess we have very different views of what contending means. I watched the Saints get flogged by GWS at Etihad on Sunday night and they sure aren't contending this year and won't for a number of years yet. Fair point re: WB they have turned it around very quickly but aren't really contenders yet they've had a good start to the season. Geelong may contend again this year. Sydney have continually contended for most of the last decade but were propped up by salary cap concessions.

But for all those examples Eagles contended from 1992-94, mid 2000's and now again in mid 10's. Geelong contended in early, mid 90's then late 00's, Hawks early 90's then late 00's, Rich, Melb, Carl, Ess, Bris, North, Port all examples of 8+ years of not contending. Saints 97-98 then 2008-11.

It's a long road but we are about to start a massive rebuild. We should be aiming at finals again in 4-6 years but contending will take longer.

The harsh reality is those Freo players you mentioned probably won't get another shot at a flag if they stay with us but I am not of the opinion you should try build your list by bottoming out and selling all your players for draft picks. We should be aiming to win every game we play and those players are needed to help us rebuild.

 

[E Shed]

Freo gutted the joint in 2008 and played in a GF in 2013. We had a core of Sandi, Macca, Pav, Mundy, MJ, Duff and a few others maybe.
Now we have a core of Fyfe, Hill, Bennell, Neale, Walters and a few others.
The main difference I suppose is there is no elite or potentially elite Rucks or Key defenders. Clarke looks like a write off and Apeman, Collins, Ueber and Hurley are unknown but unlikely to be of the quality of the guys from 2008. Taberner and Hannath don't count. Not AFL quality.

 

[Grape Bear]

Freo gutted the joint in 2008 and played in a GF in 2013. We had a core of Sandi, Macca, Pav, Mundy, MJ, Duff and a few others maybe.
Now we have a core of Fyfe, Hill, Bennell, Neale, Walters and a few others.
The main difference I suppose is there is no elite or potentially elite Rucks or Key defenders. Clarke looks like a write off and Apeman, Collins, Ueber and Hurley are unknown but unlikely to be of the quality of the guys from 2008. Taberner and Hannath don't count. Not AFL quality.

As I said, the worry is where the holes are, and it's in places where they're more difficult to fill. There's only so much tall talent going around, and we don't have too many to grow.

 

[blue shark]

I like the way Hawthorn went about acquiring talent with players you would judge as just above average, but they seem
to fit , improve in their system.
We appear to be wasting our time chasing supposedly A graders, especially eastern state players, and our situation
requires several good players rather than some white knight.
Sure do a deal for Hogan if he wants in, but we should wait till his contract has ended.
Get the spine right and by 2018 we will be ready to contend, but this will require blood, sweat and tears, and some
of our favorites may be moved on.
The plus side is the kids have shown something, plenty to work with, but we will need at least six new faces next
year minimum in our best 22 to improve.

 

[free tara brown]

Just reminding you that the recruiters gave us a team that has played finals for the last few years, had a crack at the flag and finished top of the ladder last year. This list might not be capable of top 4 right now, but it is not a bottom 4 list, our current woes lie between a new game plan/new coaches, injuries and the players brains - and unforeseen rule changes that reward teams loaded with gazelles instead of contested brutes. Can't hang the recruiters for those things.

Also can't blame the recruiters for most of the injuries and suspensions that have our starting 22 compromised at the moment with most of the best of our core midfield now out. (and wouldn't we have loved to have Mora on the park for all of these years and an experienced player for us right now, Apeness would be handy).

Yes they could have brought in some more key position players, but they have been compromised by having low draft picks for years and the expansion teams stockpiling all of the competitions best key position players in drafts for 6 years haven't made that easy (we aren't the only club hungry for kpp's as a consequence of expansion).

Sorry, don't buy it. The spine of the side was built over 10 years ago. Our elite key tall assets in the Lyon era were Pav, Sandi, and McPharlin - all recruited to the club between 99-01. Nothing to do with our current recruiters.

The good players we recruited since the Schwab era mostly came to the club while Phil Smart was still around. Only two players since then (2010) look like serious top quality 200 gamers - Neale and Alex Pearce. The rest we either don't know about or have been seriously average.

Very little effort has been made to even provide depth in key positions. Take passing on Lever for Weller or McGovern for Blakely. Our players might become stars, but they aren't in areas of dire need, and reasonable quality young key talls were available at the picks they were taken, the situation for which is getting worse.

The reality is that the 07-09 years were in reality a mini rebuild from the Connolly days, not a full rebuild. By and large, our best players belong to the recruiting of a previous era. Only Hill, Neale and Fyfe of those recruited post-Schwab have made a dent in terms of AA nominations, Doig medal placements, Brownlow etc.

 

[aussieviking]

This year will prove to be a bonus long term. We have the rest of the year to try midfield talent. Fyfe can come back as a forward.Bennell and Yarran will play 2nd half of season. We get to give opportunities to Smith Ubagang Hannath Collins etc If they don't comm on we can delist them. Hopefully Apeness will get a chance. I would try Morobito and if he gets injured again it is over for him.

This disaster season may help us progress and rebound again next year. I feel strangely positive

 

[salim malik]

I'd let the year play out on Pearce, Apeness, Mora , Hurley, Collins ,Uber, Tabs and Smith to see what the future holds re contending. If 3 or 4 of them make it and show improvement our KP stocks look OK . If we add McCarthy even better. We need a decent ruck man forward and Apeness might be the answer. This season still holds a heap of interest in finding out who will make the cut.

 

[Grape Bear]

Im no fremantle expert (as you can tell by my name) but from outside looking in I think that its unlikely freo will be a contender for few years. Its not just about how much the club can improve its list, but about how much the club can improve its list relative to the opposition.(GWS-SCARY, Hell even Melbourne are scary potentially)

Freo has a very talented core of midfielders, but the entire spine is getting on in years. For comparison the Pies have a midfield that out punches just about everyone other than Sydney, but because of their weakness in the spine they struggle in big games(well they did last year, this year they have possibly regressed).

Given that the team is still trying to figure out who will be their future ruck/KPB/KPF (let alone getting 50-80 games of development into them) Hanging onto freo's star players in the short term will win some games, keep the supporters happier and make the team more competitive in the short term but make it very difficult to get a premiership.

The biggest asset freo has is a strong Head coach and dedicated fan base. If you compare the posts on this thread with whats going on the richmond page you will see what I mean.

I would suggest trading your players with currency for early draft picks or high potential players like Hogan.
Also, its not like Freo hasnt been trying to bring in talented KPP's its just that they havnt been able to get any of the deals over the line.
Obviously the list management is aware of the issues, but for whatever reason they havnt been able to lock anyone down.

I would be a bit nervous over Lyon's statement that they just need a few changes to become contenders again. The team was built for a style of game play that's been officiated out, and the players will struggle to become elite kicks and endurance sprinters overnight.

anyway, my 2C.

Oppos who are not here to troll are always welcome. You're actually more sensible than a lot of our own "supporters" because you're not emotionally invested.

It's hard to lure a scarce commodity from over East (where most of the supply is) when majority of the market are already on the same side of the country. Why should a player choose to uproot his entire life outside of football to move West, where they will have to travel every other week, where they will have less opportunities for media and endorsement deals (unless they're Nic Nat or Nat Fyfe), and where they will be perennially underrated simply because they are not playing for the darling teams in Victoria? What price does one put on all of that, an extra fifty, sixty, or hundred grand? It's so much effort versus just having to turn in your old jumper for a new one, turn in your key pass, and walking into a different club in the same city on your next pre-season.

There's only so much we can offer on top of the going rate to lure KPPs back to WA without compromising our ability to keep our current rainmakers happy.

 

[Lach72]

The reality is that the 07-09 years were in reality a mini rebuild from the Connolly days, not a full rebuild. By and large, our best players belong to the recruiting of a previous era. Only Hill, Neale and Fyfe of those recruited post-Schwab have made a dent in terms of AA nominations, Doig medal placements, Brownlow etc.

Ballantyne.
I'm not sure cutting 14 players or whatever it was at the end of 07 can be classifies as a mini rebuild

 

[free tara brown]

Ballantyne

Forgot about him.

That said, I just don't see enough players recruited in the past six years as elite. We can blame lack of high draft picks, but it's bullshit. The 2010 draft we burned, Hawthorn have two three-time premiership players from it, plus Angus Litherland, a mobile key tall. We have sweet fa.

How do you win a premiership when you burn drafts and the best clubs in the comp don't?

Ballantyne.
I'm not sure cutting 14 players or whatever it was at the end of 07 can be classifies as a mini rebuild

We didn't have to draft young key talls and wait for them to come on - which is what we're going to have to do from now on, and there will be no quick way out.

 

[Lach72]

Forgot about him.

That said, I just don't see enough players recruited in the past six years as elite. We can blame lack of high draft picks, but it's bullshit. The 2010 draft we burned, Hawthorn have two three-time premiership players from it, plus Angus Litherland, a mobile key tall. We have sweet fa.

How do you win a premiership when you burn drafts and the best clubs in the comp don't?

Yeah, it wasn't great. Combined with Loss of Morabito, Palmer and Simpson and it's a big hole.
Weller has it as does Alex Pearce
Litherland is the type we should be all over...he's good enough but can't get a look in that side.

A second round pick, especially if we finish low, should be enough to prise him loose unless Gibson retires and they promise him the spot

 

[Arcassius]

Look I think the club is doing the right thing by tanking this year to get the #1 pick - can draft a good tall, and be back in the running next season

#notserious