When does one era end and another begin?

[MrRockett24]

Hawthorn over 20 years...70's to 1991...change of best 18/22 about 2 or 3 times.

Geelong in 2012 will be missing Ling, Rooke, Ottens, G.Ablett, N.Ablett, Milburn, Egan, Blake, Harley and Mooney missing from the dominant 07 season and GF.

Not to mention like 5 coaches....

I can feel iv left someone out, and I feel like an @$$...but regardless...

When does an era end, and another one begin...or is it all continuous...

Surely, once 1/2 the team is made of diff players...it's not the same era???

 

[God Mode]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

The team is more than just the best 22. Throughout the past 5 years we have had many different players come in and out of a pool of 30. So the 10 players you listed there isn't exactly half, plus N.Ablett and Egan were only in this era for 1/5 years. Teams are always built around a core and once that main core mostly diminishes then I'd call it the end of an era.

 

[you pick one]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

Hawthorn over 20 years...70's to 1991...change of best 18/22 about 2 or 3 times.

Geelong in 2012 will be missing Ling, Rooke, Ottens, G.Ablett, N.Ablett, Milburn, Egan, Blake, Harley and Mooney missing from the dominant 07 season and GF.

Not to mention like 5 coaches....

I can feel iv left someone out, and I feel like an @$$...but regardless...

When does an era end, and another one begin...or is it all continuous...

Surely, once 1/2 the team is made of diff players...it's not the same era???

Think ex captain

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

I think it's something that's done retrospectively. Brisbane probably still considered themselves a chance in 2005 and I assume Hawthorn was the same in 1992. Realistically, it looks like it will be 2013 for us in the here-and-now, but if we don't make the grand final this year, the era will be considered 2007-2011 as people look back on it decades from now.

 

[MrRockett24]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

Think ex captain

Oh yeah...Kingy....

I knew i had left someone out...theres prob still another.

God Mode - The team is more than just the best 22. Throughout the past 5 years we have had many different players come in and out of a pool of 30. So the 10 players you listed there isn't exactly half, plus N.Ablett and Egan were only in this era for 1/5 years. Teams are always built around a core and once that main core mostly diminishes then I'd call it the end of an era.

Agreed there...obviously its a core of about 30 guys (in a low injury year) and 35 on average really...but the 30-35 guys from 07 is more like about 15 still around.

I know a guy who thinks change in Captain is diff era. Hes Hawthorn and he thinks cos Hawthorn had Parkin/Crimmins/Scott/Matthews/Tuck, thats 5 diff eras for the club. Which seems about right over 20 years really...5 diff eras.

Think though, of our ALL CONQUERING 07 GF TEAM....Blake and Egan were the only 2 who full on MISSED IT. So really, our era started with 24 guys.

Of them 24 guys...11 are gone as of Round 1 - 2012...thats only 13 remaining, not to mention a complete change in the coaching dept.

Its gone so quick....07 was only a few months ago surely.

To think that 90% of our 07 Team will be gone and replaced 12 months from NOW...its kinda sad really.

I Hate Retirements.

 

[barmy44]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

To think that 90% of our 07 Team will be gone and replaced 12 months from NOW...its kinda sad really.

I Hate Retirements.

see where youre coming from, but i disagree. got so much joy out of watching these players, but i for one love watching guys like christensen, vardy, west, brown (hopefully), simpson, menzel, duncan, hawkins, selwood, varcoe come on. and there are many more i have only names for, who i havent seen play VFL.

cant wait to see what they can eventually offer, where they can take the club.

if i had the chance of keeping the team we currently have forever, i wouldnt take it.

i kinda like retirements.

 

[MightyHawks]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

An interesting question.

Did Hawthorn's era end in 1985 with the retirements of Leigh Matthews and Peter Knights? Dunstall, Langford and Platten kickstarted the next one...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1991/1992? Last Hurrah...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1985? A new era starts afresh...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1989? Not the end, still one last shot to fire...

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

Hawthorn over 20 years...70's to 1991...change of best 18/22 about 2 or 3 times.

Geelong in 2012 will be missing Ling, Rooke, Ottens, G.Ablett, N.Ablett, Milburn, Egan, Blake, Harley and Mooney missing from the dominant 07 season and GF.

Not to mention like 5 coaches....

I can feel iv left someone out, and I feel like an @$$...but regardless...

When does an era end, and another one begin...or is it all continuous...

Surely, once 1/2 the team is made of diff players...it's not the same era???

it's a fascinating subject and one most of us have thought about as all good things usually come to an end at some point.

It's like trying to notice the aging process in a mirror.
I reckon Geelong have built a dynasty and what we are currently living through is a change of players that best suits today's game. The coach is arguably going to be responsible for either keeping us around the top or he will be responsible for the dip that is eagerly anticipated by most AFL fans (other than Geelong of course).

Scott made some tough decisions in 2011 by standing by his word and playing the future but at the same time, did not compromise our premiership chances.
I believe 2011 was the end of an era but to have won the flag is quite amazing.

We have half a squad that is 25 years and under, with another batch of newcomers in Guthrie, Motlop, Simpson, Schroder, Smedts, Cowan, Gillies & Horlin-Smith who will get upwards of 5 senior games in 2012.

Next to go will be Scarlett, Wojcinski, Chapman and Corey.
We are already into a new era at Geelong and who knows what they achieve next season.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

Comes down to the quality of the replacements -remember season 2009 two thirds through that season we looked finished- Bomber said at some club function directed at the players -is the club going to just drift away.

End result a 2nd premiership and then Wells steps up to the plate and drafts brilliantly

Pick 17 Menzel
Pick 28 Duncan
Pick 41 Cristenson
Pick 43 Vardy

Fancy that You win a premiership and 4 not really early picks and he picks 4 absolute guns Just so dissappointed about Menzels injury .

I think next year we will still be very hard to beat . When we lose the likes of Enright and Chapman real good footballers -thats when reality will hit hard -but that might be 2014 -but if Wells keeps replenishing the stock brilliantly -then the success might continue

 

[dazbroncos]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

I kind of look at it like this...

The black and white print of history tells you that Premierships are won by 22 players and a coach on one day

In reality, you must have at least 30 + players able to be in the best 22 and nearly 30 odd support / coaching staff to get to that you point.

Its as much about depth as it is about stars... and fortunately we are lucky to have both. Thus, in relation to the OP, I don't think that overall this is an era change... we are still in the middle of it.

Of course, there are players and coaches leaving that have been here and there are new players and coaches coming, but because of the quality of the depth and the changes that are happening, I see the "era" perhaps being viewed as one larger one than several smaller ones....

Im not discounting the value in the 1000 odd games of player experience that he left us, not to mention the coaching ones too, but the evenness and depth we have seen can't be forgotten either.... Just makes Wells look for Sage like every day....

Go Catters

 

[The Catt]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

I think you can only tell when one era ends and another begins, with the benefit of hindsight.
In 10 years time, we'll be able to look back and define these events ........... at the moment , it just feels like 2007-11 is one era, but this view might change depending on continued success or a return to mediocrity.

 

[maculosus]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

In the context of sport, an era is all about winning games and titles. Does anybody talk about the current Richmond or Melbourne era? No, because they're not winning. To me the era continues while we continue to win and challenge for titles. Once we stop making Prelims, the era is over and the next one doesn't start until we have another period of sustained success.

 

[vinum coupe]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

An era probably ends when the club, not the team, drops out of contention.

It's obvious the Cats are trying to do something that has never been achieved during the modern era. And that's place emphasis on winning a flag 4 years down the road (2014) whilst still trying to be in contention all the way through.

If Geelong finish top 4 or 5 during 2012, 2013 and win the flag in 2014 I will fall off my chair because that will be an extraordinary performance as the 2014 side won't look anything like that 2007 side. (the more likely and accepted / expected scenario is 4th, 6th, 9th)

I bloody hope the club can pull it off though.

8 Years in the top 5 would be like a dream. And the side would be completely refreshed to threaten through 2015, 2016

 

[you pick one]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

An era probably ends when the club, not the team, drops out of contention.

It's obvious the Cats are trying to do something that has never been achieved during the modern era. And that's place emphasis on winning a flag 4 years down the road (2014) whilst still trying to be in contention all the way through.

If Geelong finish top 4 or 5 during 2012, 2013 and win the flag in 2014 I will fall off my chair because that will be an extraordinary performance as the 2014 side won't look anything like that 2007 side. (the more likely and accepted / expected scenario is 4th, 6th, 9th)

I bloody hope the club can pull it off though.

8 Years in the top 5 would be like a dream. And the side would be completely refreshed to threaten through 2015, 2016

I was looking at something like that,however I think with the retirement of Otto and Ling I will have to reassess,to finish top 4 this year we need them to stay on to provide the rotation and pressure for spots in the side as was provided by Moons and Dasher this year.
I have downgraded us now from top 4 finish to around 6th,this is not a put down of their replacements more about less flexibility and list management (the old general soreness).

 

[vinum coupe]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

Maybe.
I agree on the resting / chop out.
The biggest concern would be Simpson rucking all year. He'd probably burn out by the finals.

Looks like some people may have to put up with / be upset with Hawkins providing some of that chop out.
Would be even more of a possibility if they rookied ..........fev

 

[MrRockett24]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

See, the point I make is that the Cats of early 90's were being phased out for Colbert, King, Graham, Sanderson, Riccardi...and a young Milburn.

They were never really considered a change in era though...i remember when David Spriggs started at Geelong, he was like a relevation....there were so many people that were happy to see the first of a new batch of young guys come in....obviously, followed our recent/current champions....but there was this total mindshift from the old brigade, to the new boys.

I got the same feeling with our young blokes this year....it felt like a total swing in the team, from that brutal hard hitting Team of 09....to one in 11 that was old guys wanting to take the hits, to look out for the young boys and to get them going.

But it was this clear cut difference....Old Guys in late 20's and Early 30's....and then young boys in Early 20's.....No Middle Ground.

I dunno if a club dropping out of Prelims is the end of an ear....jesus....Hawthorn had 20+ years of 1 Era if thats the case.

Maybe the end of an era is when the youngest guy at the start, gets old and retires....

Example: Crimmins/Parkin/Scott/Knights - Era 1 Tuck/Matthews Era 2 then Dermie/Dipper/Platten...these guys were in Era 3. Dunstall...he was part of the former era, but also the new era with Crawford and Dixon and Hudson and the new boys after the glory years...Era 4.

The Problem is Tuck played in the first 3 eras didnt he??? Matthews in the 1st and 2nd. Dermie and Dipper in the 2nd and 3rd.....and Dunstall in the 3rd and 4th.

Geelong Example: 2004 Start of Dominant Era 1. 2011 = Dominant Era 2. If we lost another 6 guys by end of 2013...then 2014 is a new 4th era.

I rekon once 1/2 the expanded team...as in 15 guys out of best 30...from when an era begins....then its a change into new era.
Considering our Era actually began in 2004....id say 2011 was the start of a new era.

More than 15 guys have been turned over in best 30, between 2004 - 2011.

MightyHawks - An interesting question.
Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1991/1992? Last Hurrah...

Last Hurrah??? I BLOODY HOPE NOT...but if we could get 1 more...id prob accept some time outside the top 4...MAYBE!!!

MightyHawks - Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1985? A new era starts afresh...

I BLOODY HOPE SO. This would be the best outcome and i genuinely hope for this...provided that we stick to our club and core values first and foremost. Secondly, we keep winning them premierships.

This would be the best thing that could happen to our club. 1 Era ends, a transition of the young group coming in and hitting their straps (just like Hawks from 83 to 85) then we go hard and grab another 3 or 4 premierships.

The thought of this has my mouth watering and im kinda lost for words here so il move on.

MightyHawks - Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1989? Not the end, still one last shot to fire...

If it was this or nothing...obviously I hope we fire up for at least 1 more.

But I hope not....obviously its impossible to sustain an elite level at the top to contend every year....we will come down EVENTUALLY....even if it took 20 years...we would come down eventually.

 

[Turbocat]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

Its in the eye of the beholder how its measured , and as some how said it will be much clearer when looking back in years to come. But heres my 2$ worth.

Bartel Era?
Do we say its based on the quality of a particular player. For years we have been a club that have had stars but had no success. Now we have the stars and the success , but can anything really label something as well as one head , one name , one star. A couple of years ago , some might have said it was the GA29 era , not now. It would be the Bartel era now. If one player can symbolise a period , who could be more worthy than a Brownlow medalist and a Norm Smith winner.A player who does it when it matters most. Yet one player can not win a flag , so really , he can not create an era in football. After all , its football , not basketball.

So , is it the 99/01 era?
The vast majority of our side has been built from these drafts. So many great players from these two drafts , that will now become club legends. Again this sort of has a ring of truth to it , but it denies the input from so many important players on the field. Selwood,Taylor, Hawkins....

Infact , any expert would say a GF winning side, no matter how good, must turn over some players , youthful or not , one must inject some freshness. Change is just as important as stability. The quality of the the fresh input is so difficult to maintain in our socialistic comp , only the very best recruitment and development gives any club a chance for an "era"

So is it the Wells Era?
Its the ability to keep balance while the change happens that is key. This points more to off-field control rather than the on fielded personnel. Our recruiting dept and the Recruiting Manager SWells is now recoginised as the benchmark. To have so many top players from late picks defies the tanking methodology. Taking a bit of time to learn his trade after being appointed in 94 , by 99 he had started to assemble a group previously unseen at our club for half a century. But getting them to the club is only half the job. Player development is critical.

Thompson Era?
In player development , most would agree the coach is key here but in todays football , its a coaching team. Players will stipulate how much influence this assistant or that has had on them. But just like players , changes are made and if this club is well balanced , it can still maintain its positive momentum while the change happens.

Cook,Costa Era?
So maintain the positive momentum!! Perhaps this is key. Who initiated the positive momentum? Its the Grandstand heros that are like the generals in our army. Would we have a club without Cook and Costa?

Yet even with excellent admin , its could all be nought without having that one player that can do it , at the right time, on the right day. The books may be in the black , the coaches could have done their job but without a mark taken or a goal kicked at the right time it would be almost be meaningless. So are we back to Bartel? or SJ? , or Chappy?

There is probably no single factor. To quote a great movie , perhaps its "The Vibe". No doubt before and about 99 we were on the verge of being dead & buried. Players were leaving , we were in debt, our club was mediocre, our home ground was below par...

Yet since then , we have slowly been moving , progressing , building momentum . Building a team, a club , a ground , a reputation , an aura and ... an era . While we are still moving forward, building, enhancing our club I think this era continues. If we stall and go into a period of stagnation , the era can rightly be said to be over.

 

[who knows]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

An interesting question.

Did Hawthorn's era end in 1985 with the retirements of Leigh Matthews and Peter Knights? Dunstall, Langford and Platten kickstarted the next one...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1991/

problem here is that geelong don't have a platten, pirtichard, dunstall, hudson comig through no t too mention darren jarman and god knows hwo else lol they were a talneted team

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

problem here is that geelong don't have a platten, pirtichard, dunstall, hudson comig through no t too mention darren jarman and god knows hwo else lol they were a talneted team

this is why I get annoyed with opposition supporters who obviously don't quite know the Geelong list.

What about the following group who are 23 years of age and under:
Guthrie, Brown, Vardy, Menzel, Duncan, Christensen, Hunt, Cowan, Hogan...all players who have played senior footy now and can take the next step as needed and then we got these boys who will play senior footy in 2012 and have opposition supporters wondering where they came from in Simpson, Smedts, Schroder, Gillies & Motlop.

Sure Platten, Dunstall, Jarman and Brereton were an exception but I reckon Christensen is going to be every bit as good as a Pritchard or Hudson and Duncan is also going to become our next Joel Corey of the midfield.

Don't forget either that Selwood, West, Varcoe, Hawkins are still much younger than what many would believe and will be around for a good 6+ years.

Geelong's main concerns will be to replace Scarlett, Ottens and Ling.
We all hope Simpson can become a top line player but Ottens will forever be one of our best and Ling was arguably the finest tagging midfield over the last decade and Scarlett will also go down as one of the great defenders.

Every other player is replaceable as midfielders are a dime a dozen but finding another Ottens or Scarlett is almost once every 15-20 years.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

I think we are seeing the gradual emergence of a key strategy around seamlessly moving from one era to another without a drop in performance. Wells is the hub of this strategy and I feel Scott well and truly understands it as well. As Healy said on OTC - this premiership is a tribute to astute man management. To me we are well and truly leading the way in selfless behaviour ( paycuts , paying below market rate and veterans putting team first) , recruiting ( Wells always has a purpose and is so goddam astute) , and timing our run at the Flag ( man management) We have not had such a sustained period of brilliance by accident and I feel this group now has the culture and determination to keep it going. Gotta love this Club !!

 

[MrRockett24]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

problem here is that geelong don't have a platten, pirtichard, dunstall, hudson comig through no t too mention darren jarman and god knows hwo else lol they were a talneted team

No we dont have another platten, pirtichard, dunstall, hudson coming through...but Hawthorn didnt know those players would turn out to be that good either....

Your looking at Hawthorns next era there...but with Hindsight....in 20 years...we may be sitting here saying, jeez Freo are good, but they sure dont have the likes of Duncan, Christensen, Vardy, Menzel, Guthrie, Selwood, Hawkins coming through like Geelong did in 2012.

Would anyone have said after the 1999/2000 draft that Geelong had a list full of talent that will go on and be what we have been.

Im not trying to debate talent pools here...just differences between Era's mostly.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

I think we are seeing the gradual emergence of a key strategy around seamlessly moving from one era to another without a drop in performance. Wells is the hub of this strategy and I feel Scott well and truly understands it as well. As Healy said on OTC - this premiership is a tribute to astute man management. To me we are well and truly leading the way in selfless behaviour ( paycuts , paying below market rate and veterans putting team first) , recruiting ( Wells always has a purpose and is so goddam astute) , and timing our run at the Flag ( man management) We have not had such a sustained period of brilliance by accident and I feel this group now has the culture and determination to keep it going. Gotta love this Club !!

yeh good points

Would you know which was the 1st team to actually start taking pay cuts for the sake of potential premierships?
I'm can't remember a team that has done it like Geelong, well publicly that is.
I think even when Gary Ablett jnr was contemplating leaving...we had players saying they will take pay cuts if it means he stays.

Definitely a special club at the minute and to think we were millions of $$$ in debt and a coach in Ayres who left us with an aging nearly washed up list and to come out the end of it all within the space of a decade is a true testament to the clubs greatness.

 

[Partridge]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

An interesting question.

Did Hawthorn's era end in 1985 with the retirements of Leigh Matthews and Peter Knights? Dunstall, Langford and Platten kickstarted the next one...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1991/1992? Last Hurrah...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1985? A new era starts afresh...

Does Geelong 2011 = Hawthorn 1989? Not the end, still one last shot to fire...

No way to know at the moment. The key is the team has to constantly regenerate, and young players have to step in for decorated veterans. As long as that can occur you can continue to remain competitive.

Hawthorn had a gun full-forward in Michael Moncrieff, and once he retired you were able to find a better replacement in Dunstall. Likewise if Hawkins can become a consistent senior performer that covers losing Mooney.

I certainly don't subscribe to the "end of an era" philosophy. It's only that if you let it happen.

 

[Partridge]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

problem here is that geelong don't have a platten, pirtichard, dunstall, hudson comig through no t too mention darren jarman and god knows hwo else lol they were a talneted team

How do you know this? Got a crystal ball have we? Who was "pirtichard" by the way. I remember Darren Pritchard - fantastic player for a few years there.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Re: When does one era end and another begin...???

yeh good points

Would you know which was the 1st team to actually start taking pay cuts for the sake of potential premierships?
I'm can't remember a team that has done it like Geelong, well publicly that is.
I think even when Gary Ablett jnr was contemplating leaving...we had players saying they will take pay cuts if it means he stays.

Definitely a special club at the minute and to think we were millions of $$$ in debt and a coach in Ayres who left us with an aging nearly washed up list and to come out the end of it all within the space of a decade is a true testament to the clubs greatness.

Cheers.
On the monetery side the only well publicised example I can recall is Chris Grant playing for unders after the kid / pocket money plea - not sure if the rest of the Bulldogs did a similar thing though.