When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[Soapy V]

Yep..
They could possibly flourish under a strong demanding coach in Lyon, and the assistants he could bring..
The sad thing is, we could go into next year with the same Teague and Co..

Don't assistant coaches have to be told if they have a job next year by this Sunday the 1st August?
The review wont be done by then...

Asst Coaches have been told

 

[blues4flag]

Asst Coaches have been told

Any of them remaining? Power seems to be doing a good job with the kids.

 

[Soapy V]

Any of them remaining? Power seems to be doing a good job with the kids.

Not 100% sure. Just know that they have all been informed. My guess is Power will stay but may depend upon new coach

 

[Masotiger]

Teague to be removed, Lyon to be appointed coach.

Cripps & Docherty stood down as co-captains, Walsh to be appointed captain with Weitering as VC & Stocker DVC.

Its a change of standards automatically and sends a strong message.

How is this any different to removing Wayne Brittain for Denis Pagan? Or Brett Ratten for Mick Malthouse? Careful what you wish for.

All that did was mask your problems and settle the natives for a while. Looks like you're on track to do it again. Carlton's issues are far greater than whoever is the senior coach.

 

[My Cotchin Rules]

2005 Pick 1 Carlton - Marc Murphy > Scott Pendlebury

2006 pick 1 Carlton - Bryce Gibbs > Travis Boak, Joel Selwood, Jack Riewoldt.

2007 pick 1 Carlton - Matthew Kreuzer > Trent Cotchin, Patrick Dangerfield, Cyril Rioli.

They were huge missus but the 2017 one stands out in recent memory, although he wasn't the "number 1".
Dow at 3 ahead of Cerra, Stephenson, Naughton, Bailey & Balta.

 

[Soapy V]

How is this any different to removing Wayne Brittain for Denis Pagan? Or Brett Ratten for Mick Malthouse? Careful what you wish for.

All that did was mask your problems and settle the natives for a while. Looks like you're on track to do it again. Carlton's issues are far greater than whoever is the senior coach.

Difference is club is now strong off the field and have the finances to improve any issues.

Football Dept is final step in the process

 

[tigers_of_old_08]

Difference is club is now strong off the field and have the finances to improve any issues.

Football Dept is final step in the process

Care to elaborate what these issues are that finances are going to fix?

 

[Soapy V]

Care to elaborate what these issues are that finances are going to fix?

Resources, development, support, reserves side, recruiting , new quality facilities. All stuff we didn’t have before. They don’t fix everything but they are needed before you move forward. No club has been successful without a strong off field. We haven’t had that for 25 years

Richmond is a great example of that

 

[Yubby]

Regardless of our thoughts Teague & Lloyd are gone and there will be approx 10 changes at years end and a new coach will have his chance to make a difference. I just hope we get it right

Are you talking 10 list changes or club personnel changes?

 

[LordLucifer]

How is this any different to removing Wayne Brittain for Denis Pagan? Or Brett Ratten for Mick Malthouse? Careful what you wish for.

All that did was mask your problems and settle the natives for a while. Looks like you're on track to do it again. Carlton's issues are far greater than whoever is the senior coach.

Having a decent senior coach is at worst, a good starting point.

We have issues with morale, culture, attitude & effort, a hard-arse like Lyon will kick start the improvements in those areas.

 

[Soapy V]

Are you talking 10 list changes or club personnel changes?

List

 

[g_TRAIN]

How is this any different to removing Wayne Brittain for Denis Pagan? Or Brett Ratten for Mick Malthouse? Careful what you wish for.

All that did was mask your problems and settle the natives for a while. Looks like you're on track to do it again. Carlton's issues are far greater than whoever is the senior coach.

I agree with you.

Carlton - don't become like us ( St Kilda ) where the solution to all your problems is always sack the coach!

 

[Noidnadroj]

averaging 30 disposals, 6 marks, 5 clearances, over 11 contested possessions a game. Been switching between the wing and cm.

averages .5 goals, sure he could lift that but every statistic has improved this year from an already high base.

AFL Tables - Sam Walsh - Stats - Statistics

we have issues but he ain't one

Correct …. It’s like the commentators and section of Richmond supporters from 1993-2010 blaming Richo for our failings. Someone who tries their guts out every minute and almost cares too much….and kicks 800 goals in a bottom team isn’t where the attention should lie. Walsh is someone Carlton’s review should spend 1-sec on.


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[Noidnadroj]

List

I think the biggest conundrum is going to be, if some of Carlton’s youngsters showing promise do improve under a new coach to the point of Carlton making finals, what happens in 12-18 months when it comes time to pay them significantly higher salaries? So much money is tied up for so long in mid-range players I’m not sure how the list build required to contend eventuates?

Let’s say improvement comes next season, then in 2023 there’s:
Saad : $600k
C. Curnow : $700k
McKay: $800k
Martin: $400k
Weitering: $750k
McGovern: $800k
Cripps: $850k
Docherty: $600k
Williams: $800k

That’s approx $6.2m of salary cap on 9 players. And assuming Walsh extends that’s $7m on 10 players in 2023. That leaves $6.4m for 28 other players = $228,000.

So how does Carlton attract the necessary quality to contend? Or how do they pay young players establishing strong careers (maybe Stocker, Dow..?) what they need to stay?

Fortunately by 2024 McGovern is gone and Docherty on reduced wages or retired. And who knows with C. Curnow who is out of contract post 2023. So there might be some significant savings 2024 onwards, but Carlton will have to backend a lot of deals post 2023 and cross their fingers they’ve got the list in place already to contend.



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[Soapy V]

I think the biggest conundrum is going to be, if some of Carlton’s youngsters showing promise do improve under a new coach to the point of Carlton making finals, what happens in 12-18 months when it comes time to pay them significantly higher salaries? So much money is tied up for so long in mid-range players I’m not sure how the list build required to contend eventuates?

Let’s say improvement comes next season, then in 2023 there’s:
Saad : $600k
C. Curnow : $700k
McKay: $800k
Martin: $400k
Weitering: $750k
McGovern: $800k
Cripps: $850k
Docherty: $600k
Williams: $800k

That’s approx $6.2m of salary cap on 9 players. And assuming Walsh extends that’s $7m on 10 players in 2023. That leaves $6.4m for 28 other players = $228,000.

So how does Carlton attract the necessary quality to contend? Or how do they pay young players establishing strong careers (maybe Stocker, Dow..?) what they need to stay?

Fortunately by 2024 McGovern is gone and Docherty on reduced wages or retired. And who knows with C. Curnow who is out of contract post 2023. So there might be some significant savings 2024 onwards, but Carlton will have to backend a lot of deals post 2023 and cross their fingers they’ve got the list in place already to contend.



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I doubt those figures are accurate

 

[g_TRAIN]

I doubt those figures are accurate

Even if they are only ball park it's still a problem.

 

[Soapy V]

Even if they are only ball park it's still a problem.

Disagree

 

[g_TRAIN]

Disagree

Fair enough.

Many clubs have players that are probably overpaid but I thought it was a reasonable point. Noidnadroj could be wrong but I have not seen any evidence to support an argument against his point. Perhaps you would like to share some as honestly, I'm fairly uneducated on the specific subject. I will take your word for it if you have more accurate info on what the above players are paid.

 

[Chunky09]

Teague to be removed, Lyon to be appointed coach.

Cripps & Docherty stood down as co-captains, Walsh to be appointed captain with Weitering as VC & Stocker DVC.

Its a change of standards automatically and sends a strong message.

Hasn’t stocker played like 10 games?
Surely that wouldn’t be setting a great standard in itself

 

[La Dispute]

They were huge missus but the 2017 one stands out in recent memory, although he wasn't the "number 1".
Dow at 3 ahead of Cerra, Stephenson, Naughton, Bailey & Balta.

Becoming less of a miss by the week, and had his best game for the club on the weekend. His past month has been very good.

 

[Masotiger]

Having a decent senior coach is at worst, a good starting point.

We have issues with morale, culture, attitude & effort, a hard-arse like Lyon will kick start the improvements in those areas.

Yes, but the same was said about Malthouse coming in, Pagan coming in.

I'm not here to defend Teague, in fact I don't see anything in Teague to warm my heart if I was a Blues supporter. Lyon might be ok if he's still got the passion.

I think Carlton's problems are way deeper than removing the coach. Carlton has to remove itself from an entitled philosophy. Carlton is now just one of 18 clubs competing on a more or less even playing field for the same prize. Back in the halcyon days of the '60s, '70s and '80s (and probably the '90s); Carlton was very successful because it was really only competing with 2 or 3 other clubs for the prized interstate recruits (and from other VFL clubs). It was also able to succeed off the back of an excellent country and metropolitan zone.

Clubs like Fitzroy, South Melbourne, Footscray had no hope competing with Carlton, Richmond, Collingwood, Hawthorn for interstate recruits. These days you can't recruit from interstate, zones no longer exist, and Carlton is competing with 17 other teams managing smaller lists.

To be successful you need to start at the very top. The board of the club and the president. Then the CEO and the other line managers. Then the coaching staff and finally the players. Lists can be turned over in a few years if need be.

 

[LordLucifer]

Hasn’t stocker played like 10 games?
Surely that wouldn’t be setting a great standard in itself

Quite the opposite actually, he applies himself onfield in a kamikaze never-say-die manner that set him apart from many others.

He is the ideal DVC for us.

 

[La Dispute]

Quite the opposite actually, he applies himself onfield in a kamikaze never-say-die manner that set him apart from many others.

He is the ideal DVC for us.

Needs at least 50-100 games before we consider it. Don't doubt he will be in our sights for a leadership role down the track, but needs to focus on developing as a footballer first.

Weitering C with Walsh VC and a leadership group including Cripps, Docherty and Jones is what I imagine we would go into 2022 with.

 

[LordLucifer]

To be successful you need to start at the very top. The board of the club and the president. Then the CEO and the other line managers. Then the coaching staff and finally the players. Lists can be turned over in a few years if need be.

Agree with everything you are saying, however, we need a little bit from each area to be done as we are somewhere in the middle of all of them.

We are about to have a new president (officially), some board members will be changed too (there is a refinement of the voting & eligibility rights going on now).

In most people's eyes, the CEO has done a really good job but I still think he will get a good lick up the jaxy anyway.

We know the findings from the review are about to be handed down, you would have to be naive to think Teague & Lloyd will remain. The assistant coaches have already been told so there will be change there and we know a reasonable number of players are out of contract which spells some serious movement at season's end.

The only quandary in all of this is in what shape or depth these things that look likely to occur actually happen.

Get these things right and we will start to make inroads towards the finals (maybe 2023), get them wrong and we stay where we are right now - an inconsistent rabble !!

 

[LordLucifer]

Weitering C with Walsh VC and a leadership group including Cripps, Docherty and Jones is what I imagine we would go into 2022 with.

Cripps & Docherty are part of the problem, they need to be stood down and told to focus purely on their own games. Jones brings bugger all to the role and is not far away from finishing up.