Who is the better player right now

[jod23]

I keep on saying. If you have another couple of years without success would you consider it.

But of course if something doesnt work you change it. Right now it's working. Working very well. Kane wouldnt get a gig for us right now because of that fact.

 

[Cruyff14]

I don't think Kane would excel at Liverpool because Liverpool can't really play well with a target man ALA Benteke etc

 

[moomba]

I don't think Kane would excel at Liverpool because Liverpool can't really play well with a target man ALA Benteke etc

They can play well with a target man. They choose to play a different style.

Spurs could play well with a target man if they signed Coutinho, Firmino, Mane etc and kept Kane.

 

[Jatz]

They can play well with a target man. They choose to play a different style.

Spurs could play well with a target man if they signed Coutinho, Firmino, Mane etc and kept Kane.

So very much this.

 

[SM]

So very much this.

So the argument is he'd suit Liverpool because Liverpool would change to suit him? Then every player suits every club...

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Under Klopp though that's not how we operate. We have starting positions but anyone can pop up on the right or the left or behind the defense on in the #10 spot or deep to pick up the ball. It's constant movement and interchanging roles and positions. Kane is no good to our team coming deep or popping up wide and on the wing. That's not his game and it wont work.

Nah that doesn't sound like us at all. Lol

 

[Jatz]

So the argument is he'd suit Liverpool because Liverpool would change to suit him? Then every player suits every club...

No it doesn't. They still have to be top quality players. I wouldn't suggest the same applies for Enner Valencia as what it does Harry Kane.

 

[SM]

No it doesn't. They still have to be top quality players. I wouldn't suggest the same applies for Enner Valencia as what it does Harry Kane.

Of course but it's still silly to say it's as simple as Liverpool just changing styles, or else Benteke would still be there.

 

[ADL9798]

You're not really getting what I'm saying jodwardson.

You seem wedded to a particular style of play. There is very little flexibility in it. A Balo, or a Benteke, or a Kane is deemed as "not the right type of player to play in it". We'll ignore Andy Carroll because he is Andy Carroll.

That style sees you finish 6th or lower in 6 of the last 7 years. If that lack of success continues for a few more years is it time to say "well that style ultimately isn't working for us, perhaps we need to start looking to adapt it?"

I wonder if Klopp's Dortmund was Klopp's Liverpool whether supporters would have passed on Lewandowski because he isn't the right type of player for the "style". Klopp managed to make it work, and if he is any sort of manager fitting someone like Kane into the side wouldn't be too difficult at all.

For what it's worth I wouldn't say no to Kane. I disagree with the idea that he can't press, he's a completely different player to Benteke, Balotelli & Carroll, and I'm sure he could work well with our current group of players, though with the way our attack is functioning at present I wouldn't want to make any drastic changes to the personnel rotating through our front 4 who seem to be complementing each other & doing their job bloody well at the moment.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here. There are many variations to the principle of passing the ball to feet and attacking with a fluid and flexible front line, so saying there's little flexibility in the way we've played over the years seems an odd observation to make. Our system and preferred formations have changed with each of the 5 managers we've had in the last 10 years. Rodgers switched his tactics halfway through his tenure. Klopp's tactics bear little resemblance to those used by Benitez or Dalglish, but are not unique in the world of football - we currently play a very similar style to that which Tottenham, Leicester, Dortmund and Atletico have used over the years.

We played what I assume is the more direct sort of system you're referring to under Hodgson and it didn't work. We signed players like Carroll, Benteke & Balotelli, gave them all significant opportunities and it didn't work.

The facts are that most of our best performances and runs of form during the last 6 years have coincided with periods when we had a team that was filled with mobile, versatile, skillful & aggressive midfielders and attackers who can press effectively and pass the ball quickly and accurately. Conversely, most of our worst performances and runs of form came when we tried playing a more patient build up through a big target man.

Our biggest issue hasn't been the system or systems we've used, but the quality and type of players we've signed, and an inability to retain the world class talents we do sign for long enough to build a squad capable of consistently challenging for the league (in my opinion the latter is the biggest difference between Liverpool and the likes of City, Chelsea & United). For example, we sign Suarez, and just when we get enough talent around him to challenge for the league, he jets off to Spain and we start the process of seeking the pieces of the puzzle to build the next title challenging squad. This process seems to have run on a 5 yearly cycle since the turn of the century.

To shorten this cycle and become a regular fixture in the top 4 and in the title race, we need to improve when it comes not only to identifying talent, but identifying talent that will complement the players we already have.

It's been noted by many Liverpool supporters in here, how refreshing it was to see Klopp target and sign players over the summer that actually fit the style of football he wants to play and complement the existing strengths of the squad. It seems a no brainer, and it's the same reason Pep just axed Joe Hart and Yaya Toure. You don't say to Pep, "well why don't you just change your tactics and replace the rest of the squad to build around those 2?". He has a plan for the way he wants City to play, saw players who didn't quite fit that plan, and replaced them with quality footballers who do.

Compare that to our transfer strategy since Benitez; which has been inconsistent in terms of quality, and at times seemingly without a clear plan in mind for how those signings are going to complement each other. Why spend half your budget on Downing, Carroll & Adam if your plan is to play the ball on the floor? Why spend half your budget on Benteke or Balotelli if you've just spent significant time & money over the previous few windows assembling and training a squad to press and counter attack? That's what needs to be changed if Liverpool are to be consistent fixtures in the top 4 going forward. Thankfully the early signs are that Klopp seems to have recognized this.

 

[Jatz]

Of course but it's still silly to say it's as simple as Liverpool just changing styles, or else Benteke would still be there.

I always thought Benteke should still be there.

Imo (which means very little), clubs should be able to play a variety of different ways. Rather than just saying 'he doesn't fit our system', they could have worked out a system that did work with him. Not to use primarily but as a back up option in games where plan A hasn't worked.

 

[ADL9798]

I always thought Benteke should still be there.

Imo (which means very little), clubs should be able to play a variety of different ways. Rather than just saying 'he doesn't fit our system', they could have worked out a system that did work with him. Not to use primarily but as a back up option in games where plan A hasn't worked.

That I do agree with, but it's difficult to justify spending £32m & £120k/week on a plan B. It looks as though Origi will replace Benteke as that different option off the bench for us - offering the capacity to play as a target man, hold the ball up and provide an aerial threat if that's what the game requires, or to use his speed and energy to continue pressing and stretching the opposition defence.

A 'target man' will work in Klopp's system if like Kane or Origi they can get involved once the ball hits the deck, and they have the mobility and work rate to play an effective role in the press when we don't have the ball. If like Benteke, Carroll or Balotelli; they are static and immobile in mind and body, then they essentially become passengers when we don't have the ball, and the game will pass them by when we do. Of course Klopp could change his whole philosophy and spend tens of millions of pounds replacing half the squad just to ensure that those players score their 15-20 goals a season, but I don't really see the logic in that and I think that's where I differ from some of you.

As Pep has done with City over the summer, as Ranieri did at Leicester, as every manager who's ever won anything of note has done over the years - identify the way you want to play and the players you want to build around, and ensure you have players who complement that system/style to make it work. If that means replacing big name players like Hart & Toure with Bravo & Gundogan or Cambiasso with Kante, then so be it. Sure you should have back up options with a different skill set if you need to change things up from game to game, and you may need to make subtle variations to the structure of the side (as Klopp has done this season switching to a 4-3-3 to get the best out of Lallana), but in my opinion the key to a successful team is ensuring the core of your squad is built with quality footballers who fit a common idea. It sounds simple but it's something we've failed to do as a club in recent years.

 

[jod23]

Nah that doesn't sound like us at all. Lol

You dont play like we do.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You dont play like we do.

I know, we can defend

 

[jod23]

I know, we can defend

 

[moomba]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here..

All I was saying is that if that strategy proves to be unsuccessful do you look at changing? Or do you change managers and still refuse to sign a particular style of player.

Is it something that Liverpool supporters will never countenance. I've been hearing for years now about target man "not fitting our style".

It really is as straightforward as that.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

personally I would have gone with the Phil Collins classic..

 

[jd2010]

Is Harry Kane a target man?

Do Spurs and Liverpool really play that different a style? Would have thought they're the most similar to one another out of any of the top 6-8. And that says a lot since pool and Spurs have half southamptons former squad and coaching staff!

 

[moomba]

Is Harry Kane a target man?

Yes and no. Think he moves a fair bit around the pitch and is involved a fair bit more than a traditional.

But he's not the lightning quick, tricky, skilful forward that can play anywhere across the front three that Liverpool seem to favour.

Do Spurs and Liverpool really play that different a style? Would have thought they're the most similar to one another out of any of the top 6-8. And that says a lot since pool and Spurs have half southamptons former squad and coaching staff!

I think Coutinho/Mane/Firmino/Wijnaldum etc could fit in with Kane at Spurs with ease. So no reason why Kane couldnt fit in with them at Anfield.

It would take a tactical tweak or two, and maybe the sacrificing of a few ideals. But you could argue that could be a good thing.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I hope Liverpool don't upgrade their midfield and strikers over the next few years because better players don't suit their 'system'.

 

[jd2010]

Yes and no. Think he moves a fair bit around the pitch and is involved a fair bit more than a traditional.

But he's not the lightning quick, tricky, skilful forward that can play anywhere across the front three that Liverpool seem to favour.




I think Coutinho/Mane/Firmino/Wijnaldum etc could fit in with Kane at Spurs with ease. So no reason why Kane couldnt fit in with them at Anfield.

It would take a tactical tweak or two, and maybe the sacrificing of a few ideals. But you could argue that could be a good thing.

My thinking of a target man is someone who you lump it up to who scores mainly from headers. He is a golden boot winner in a side that plays possession football and he doesn't really lay it off to his AMs

 

[jod23]

personally I would have gone with the Phil Collins classic..

Emma Stone is so hot though.

 

[jod23]

Yes and no. Think he moves a fair bit around the pitch and is involved a fair bit more than a traditional.

But he's not the lightning quick, tricky, skilful forward that can play anywhere across the front three that Liverpool seem to favour.




I think Coutinho/Mane/Firmino/Wijnaldum etc could fit in with Kane at Spurs with ease. So no reason why Kane couldnt fit in with them at Anfield.

It would take a tactical tweak or two, and maybe the sacrificing of a few ideals. But you could argue that could be a good thing.

This is the difference though. Cout/Mane/Firm/Wij etc could go to Spurs and fit in with Kane quite well because Spurs already have a system in place with Kane and it's working ok. So Cout/Mane/Firm/Wij etc just replace guys like Son/Lamela/Ali/Eriksen (im not saying our players are better, just like for like if you will) but you cant do that going the other way.

You cant take Firmino out and put Kane in. We would have to scrap our system and go back to the drawing board to come up with something that fits Kane in.

Im sure Klopp is talented enough to find a way to make it work but why would we. Since his arrival nobody has scored more goals than us so Kane's goals arent needed.

Although I guess we could bring him in for set pieces. #troll

 

[ADL9798]

All I was saying is that if that strategy proves to be unsuccessful do you look at changing? Or do you change managers and still refuse to sugn a particular style of player.

Is it something that Liverpool supporters will never countenance. I've been hearing for years now about target man "not fitting our style".

It really is as straightforward as that.

And the sentence immediately following that one answers your question. You're oversimplifying assuming that every manager we've had since 2010 has played exactly the same way like we're still in The Boot Room era. Do we think about changing our strategy if the present one is unsuccessful? We've had 5 different managers during that time, every one of whom has played a very different style/system, some of whom have changed style/system midway through their tenure.

I'm not dogmatically against signing target men, but 'target man' is a fairly broad category of player. The 3 we've had in the last 5 years haven't worked out and probably wouldn't have lasted under Klopp because they've proven to be a liability defensively; whereas I think given their quality, work rate and mobility the likes Kane or Lewandowski (who are very different footballers to Benteke, Carroll or Balotelli) would quite easily shine.

I'm happy for our managers to sign whomever they want if they think that player will help them to achieve success with whatever style of play they want to follow. What has been frustrating as a Liverpool supporter has been the failure of the club to marry the style of football those managers have sought to play with not only the quality but the type of players coming in. That was the critical failure of the transfer committee in the way that it was structured pre-Klopp.

Klopp comes in with his own set of principles and ideas about how the game should be played, and a list of traits he requires in the playing group for those ideas to be successful. All I want is to see us sign players who will help him achieve that. Who knows, maybe Allardyce or Mourinho will be our next manager and we might be looking for a player with Benteke's skill set again.

 

[moomba]

Maybe oversimplifying things but I think you're over complicating the question I posed.

Like I've said, for quite a few years now under quite a few different managers Liverpool supporters on here have passed on quality players of a certain type because they don't fit the Liverpool style. I was just wondering when and under what circumstances people would have a rethink.

 

[moomba]

You cant take Firmino out and put Kane in. We would have to scrap our system and go back to the drawing board to come up with something that fits Kane in.

Im sure Klopp is talented enough to find a way to make it work but why would we. Since his arrival nobody has scored more goals than us so Kane's goals arent needed.

As I've said before I don't think it needs to be a Firmino or Kane decision. Suspect there would be a place for both.

And also as I've said before my question was what would happen if the lack of success continues at Liverpool for a few more years.

If you think you've got better players than Spurs, but they continue to outperform you, you have to wonder whether you are currently getting the most out of your players. Or whether your style is actually working. Another season or two of 7th or 8th for Liverpool and I think it would be reasonable to have those doubts.