Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

[doppleganger]

I don’t know how you can still not get it. Both clubs play 2 bastardised games, which cancel eachother out. The tiebreaker is where West Coast played a neutral game in the NT (according to you), while Melbourne get an extra home game against the marvel tenants.

Surely that extra home game tips the scales in Melbourne’s favour!

Youve fudged the numbers as hard as you could and WC still didn’t come out on top

And by fudging the numbers I mean pretending WC had a familiarity advantage at Marvel in Melbourne. Do you know how ridiculous that is? You don’t apply anything consistently, Ive had to correct you twice already , if you think we had a familiarity advantage (lol) playing our 3rd game v 2nd at Marvel against the pies, then Collingwood must be the most advantaged team in the competition every year. They have a familiarity advantage in every single game, neutral or otherwise on the MCG. You don’t even give the demons a familiarity advantage in the NT when WC had never even played a single game in that whole State.

Caught out every time you’ve had a go, cant name a single non Victorian club who had it better than north or hawks in 2019 when asked repeatedly. Fell flat on your face with your effort here with WC / Melb. Gone to embarrassing extremes without applying them consistently, continually flip flopping and contradicting yourself. You can just wear the L now and we can both move on. Cheers

Yep, Melbourne played 2 bastardised games.
They also gave up 2 further home games, not just one.

So as said, even if giving Dees the same advantage for a game against the Dogs at Etihad as the Eagles get against the Dogs at Optus, the Eagles come out ahead.

What do you think familiarity means? Playing more games at the venue than your opponent had. WC did this 11 times in 2015.

Games with full HGA, WC 10, Dees only 7
Games with full away disadvantage, WC 7 to Dees 5

If both teams play just a single game at a venue, nobody has familiarity advantage.

And yes, in 2015 Collingwood had 12 games where we had familiarity advantage. That is what you fail to get.

WC have 10 games with full blown home advantage, Melbourne ground rationalisation killed that for the Melbourne teams. We now have ground familiarity, playing at the G 14 times instead of 10...it ain't the same as a home advantage.

What you have clearly shown you fail to grasp is that familiarity advantage isn't the same as a full home advantage.

The numbers speak for themselves, non-Melbourne teams advantaged. WC more advantaged in 2015 compared to Melbourne...it helped them finish top2 when they didn't deserve to.

 

[Tbonefreo]

There are 10 clubs in Victoria. There will always be at least a couple of Victorian clubs in contention. Add in the inherent victorian advantage in finals and this means that Victoria as a market will always win more flags. As is being shown over the past decade.

Equalisation please

This pretty much ended the argument for me

 

[Shane Heard]

Jesus Christ almighty…the reality of this argument never sinks into WC, Freo, PA, Crows , Swans and Lions fans.

You guys actually have the advantage every season with your home crowds.

If you’re a good enough side you can win anywhere.

Lions 3 flags proved that a long long time ago…

 

[dean33]

Jesus Christ almighty…the reality of this argument never sinks into WC, Freo, PA, Crows , Swans and Lions fans.

You guys actually have the advantage every season with your home crowds.

If you’re a good enough side you can win anywhere.

Lions 3 flags proved that a long long time ago…

They don’t get it, the mcg has to be the most neutral venue in the game and on grand final day even more so. They also don’t get an interstate side that finishes top 2 get 2 home finals at venues that are much more advantageous than a Melbourne side gets. Only have to look at 2018, Richmond finished 2 games clear on top and their 2 home finals were against fellow tenants hawks and pies. West coast finished 2nd, got pies and dees in Perth and beat them both to make the grand final. They were then good enough to beat the pies on grand final day at the g.
At the end of the day if you’re are good enough you win on grand final day whether you are a interstate team or not, however no one has a bigger advantage than the interstate teams for all games leading up to the grand final.

 

[Shane Heard]

They don’t get it, the mcg has to be the most neutral venue in the game and on grand final day even more so. They also don’t get an interstate side that finishes top 2 get 2 home finals at venues that are much more advantageous than a Melbourne side gets. Only have to look at 2018, Richmond finished 2 games clear on top and their 2 home finals were against fellow tenants hawks and pies. West coast finished 2nd, got pies and dees in Perth and beat them both to make the grand final. They were then good enough to beat the pies on grand final day at the g.
At the end of the day if you’re are good enough you win on grand final day whether you are a interstate team or not, however no one has a bigger advantage than the interstate teams for all games leading up to the grand final.

I concur.

I’ve been in Perth for last 15 years and every single Freo and WC fan (old snd young) complains about the “ travel factor”

It’s like a conspiracy theory passed down through the generations

I give up arguing with them

It’s like trying to change the mind of a flat earth believer

 

[bh90210fan]

They don’t get it, the mcg has to be the most neutral venue in the game and on grand final day even more so. They also don’t get an interstate side that finishes top 2 get 2 home finals at venues that are much more advantageous than a Melbourne side gets. Only have to look at 2018, Richmond finished 2 games clear on top and their 2 home finals were against fellow tenants hawks and pies. West coast finished 2nd, got pies and dees in Perth and beat them both to make the grand final. They were then good enough to beat the pies on grand final day at the g.
At the end of the day if you’re are good enough you win on grand final day whether you are a interstate team or not, however no one has a bigger advantage than the interstate teams for all games leading up to the grand final.

There’s the kicker. We were good enough to beat them on the mcg, you weren’t. And it was a lot easier for you to get the job done than us.

Im sure any other ground in the country would’ve been more neutral than the mcg on that day, and for another 6 or so other grand finals that decade.

 

[dean33]

There’s the kicker. We were good enough to beat them on the mcg, you weren’t. And it was a lot easier for you to get the job done than us.

Im sure any other ground in the country would’ve been more neutral than the mcg on that day, and for another 6 or so other grand finals that decade.

We played them on preliminary final day so it was neutral, you played Melbourne and had a huge advantage. In the qualifying final we played the hawks and it was neutral while yiu played the pies and had a huge advantage. Forget the capacity of the ground as the factor or tradition or even Melbourne putting on a grand final week like no other, the most neutral venue in the game is the place where 10 teams call home not 2.

 

[bh90210fan]

We played them on preliminary final day so it was neutral, you played Melbourne and had a huge advantage. In the qualifying final we played the hawks and it was neutral while yiu played the pies and had a huge advantage. Forget the capacity of the ground as the factor or tradition or even Melbourne putting on a grand final week like no other, the most neutral venue in the game is the place where 10 teams call home not 2.

You could’ve rolled through the finals without facing any disadvantage at all. If that’s the worst deal you’re going to get you should be pretty bloody happy. You cant expect rides like 2017 every finals series.

I don’t know what you think most neutral means, but a ground where 6 clubs have an advantage over the rest isn’t it. If the grand final was in Perth every year there’d only be 5 grand finals in the last 20 years where a team had hga.

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

The Bulldogs and wce are the only teams outside being a mcg tenant to win since 2013. The game is now played with zoning all over the ground, where the dimensions of the ground make a huge difference in today's game.

West coast were terrible at the g, when they had Subiaco as a home ground, it was a long skinny ground. You'll notice now that Optus dimensions are very close to the g's dimensions and west coast are a far better side playing here now.

There needs to be a best of three grand final, with a 17 game season, and state of origin weekend the week before finals from players of teams that didn't make it.

Anyone that doesn't think or care that the AFL is the most uneven comp in the world has rocks in their heads. Why do collingwood travel the least especially when you have wce and Freo travelling, how many dockers and wce players have played 300 games, bigger all. Footy this year has shown people will go watch footy anywhere.

They don’t get it, the mcg has to be the most neutral venue in the game and on grand final day even more so. They also don’t get an interstate side that finishes top 2 get 2 home finals at venues that are much more advantageous than a Melbourne side gets. Only have to look at 2018, Richmond finished 2 games clear on top and their 2 home finals were against fellow tenants hawks and pies. West coast finished 2nd, got pies and dees in Perth and beat them both to make the grand final. They were then good enough to beat the pies on grand final day at the g.
At the end of the day if you’re are good enough you win on grand final day whether you are a interstate team or not, however no one has a bigger advantage than the interstate teams for all games leading up to the grand final.

 

[Coolangatta]

In one sense, I am a GF traditionalist - a single, glory-or-nothing decider on the last Saturday of September.

But I agree about the relevance of the dimensions of the ground, which is a further reason I support rotating the grand final every year (and sticking to that venue no matter who plays).

The best team has to adapt or overcome the dimensional disadvantage non-MCG tenants have faced forever. Why should MCG tenants get that advantage year in, year out?

As I said, NFL Superbowl hosts don't require 100k. 70k is the minimum, so why does the AFL have to be any different? The answer is greed.

Sure, ANZ is the only other stadium that could host if 70k became the minimum requirement (even then, the facilities need to be at least as good as the MCGs), but we know that Adelaide and Optus could increase capacity, and we know the QLD gov could change the Gabba's new Olympic ground plans to fit 70k.

 

[Tackle Bag]

In one sense, I am a GF traditionalist - a single, glory-or-nothing decider on the last Saturday of September.

But I agree about the relevance of the dimensions of the ground, which is a further reason I support rotating the grand final every year (and sticking to that venue no matter who plays).

The best team has to adapt or overcome the dimensional disadvantage non-MCG tenants have faced forever. Why should MCG tenants get that advantage year in, year out?

As I said, NFL Superbowl hosts don't require 100k. 70k is the minimum, so why does the AFL have to be any different? The answer is greed.

Sure, ANZ is the only other stadium that could host if 70k became the minimum requirement (even then, the facilities need to be at least as good as the MCGs), but we know that Adelaide and Optus could increase capacity, and we know the QLD gov could change the Gabba's new Olympic ground plans to fit 70k.

The thing is 30-40k of tickets is not an enormous loss of income to the NFL in the scheme of things. It is a very significant amount to the AFL.

Add to that the income drawn from corporate functions etc held in Melbourne in the lead up to and on the day of the GF that simply aren’t as numerous or as profitable if the game is held in SA or WA and the gap between profit from a Melbourne GF and one held interstate becomes quite large.

it’s not the fairest for the comp but that’s the reality.

 

[doppleganger]

The Bulldogs and wce are the only teams outside being a mcg tenant to win since 2013.

LoL at picking 2013

In 2000, 01,02,03,04,05,06,07,09, 11 and 2012 non MCG tenant teams won.

And Hawthorn usually only play 6 of 11 home games at the G, and play more games away from the G than at the G each H&A season.

So put 2013,2014 and 2015 in italics or a smaller font as Hawks aren't the true MCG tenant, more akin to Carlton who split games.

And not sure what relevance Richmond being an MCG tenant had in 2020?? It gave them an advantage at the GABBA did it?

The game is now played with zoning all over the ground, where the dimensions of the ground make a huge difference in today's game.

No s**t, home ground advantage is real.

West coast were terrible at the g, when they had Subiaco as a home ground, it was a long skinny ground. You'll notice now that Optus dimensions are very close to the g's dimensions and west coast are a far better side playing here now.

And they didn't lose any home advantage from the change, home record basically the same at Domain to Optus.

There needs to be a best of three grand final, with a 17 game season, and state of origin weekend the week before finals from players of teams that didn't make it.

What a strange leap of logic

1 - the hint is in the name, grand final. It is a singular once off event. Perform on the day or you are done. If you want finals series, go follow American sports, if you want to reward the best team all year go follow European soccer.

2 - a 17 game season, some teams 8 home games, others 9?? LoL imagine the sooking when the Eagles get 8 home games.

3 - state of origin is dead, nobody cares anymore.

Anyone that doesn't think or care that the AFL is the most uneven comp in the world has rocks in their heads.

Agree, I can't think of any other sports that have deliberately removed home ground advantage for half the teams in the competition.

And those teams are forced to play "home" games in other states or at other grounds.

Can you ever imagine Tottenham playing a "home" game against Southampton at Stamford Bridge (Chelsea's ground) and nuffie Southampton supporters saying oh well the game is in London so it counts as home ground advantage to Tottenham.

Let alone Tottenham further selling games to make some $$ due to terrible stadium deals, so effectively playing exhibition games outside of London, and being told by the Southampton nuffies that they are also home advantage games.

Why do collingwood travel the least especially when you have wce and Freo travelling, how many dockers and wce players have played 300 games, bigger all. Footy this year has shown people will go watch footy anywhere.

It is pretty simple

You shouldn't travel for your home games yeah? (Unless you are a Melbourne based team of course). So that is 11 games you shouldn't travel for.

Away games - there are 11, in Collingwood's case 8 of 17 potential opponents are outside Vic (47%). 11 games @ 47% means if being fair and equitable, Pies should travel 5.17 times a year. We play 5 EVERY year outside of Victoria.

For a team like WC - 16 of 17 opponents are outside WA (94%). 11 games @ 94% means should be 10.35 games away every year. But the AFL fudges fixture to advantage the non-vic and have derbies every year, so only 10 away games.

The double fixture also limits opportunity for a team like Collingwood to travel, as WC can only host 10 teams not 11 like they would if it was random.

Why do collingwood travel the least especially when you have wce and Freo travelling, how many dockers and wce players have played 300 games, bigger all.

LoL

Collingwood haven't had a 350 gamer ever...Freo have 2, Pavlich and Mundy. Didn't Mundy just poll 20 votes in the brownlow? Isn't he going around again!!

Burgoyne just played 400 games, he travelled every second week for his career.

Is Hurn going around again?

Travel may have been a big deal when Eagles came in, but now it is just geographical reality.

 

[doppleganger]

As I said, NFL Superbowl hosts don't require 100k. 70k is the minimum, so why does the AFL have to be any different? The answer is greed.

Sure, ANZ is the only other stadium that could host if 70k became the minimum requirement (even then, the facilities need to be at least as good as the MCGs), but we know that Adelaide and Optus could increase capacity, and we know the QLD gov could change the Gabba's new Olympic ground plans to fit 70k.

The AFL isn't the NFL

NFL is privately owned and all about maximising $$ for private owners.

NFL also doesn't have 50% of teams and 60% of members in the one city.

NFL has numerous 70k+ stadiums available across their country that are suitable, we don't.

Nothing to do with greed, just the actual reality of our competition and the stakeholders.

When you have 60% of AFL members, 50% of competing clubs coming from the one city that actually has the 100k stadium...it really is a no brainer as to why the big event is at the G every normal season.

Again remember why the GF was introduced in the first place, was never about fairness, it was make $$ for all teams and creating an event.

 

[Coolangatta]

Considering both points each of you has made, why not have the MCG host every second year, as many have proposed before? But keep the 70k minimum capacity + facilities and infrastructure to match what the MCG and surrounding area offer. You can still have 25-30k corporates at the non-Vic grounds if they get to 70k and can accommodate the grand final events. The AFL won't lose as much money as they would if the MCG gets it every second year instead of every five years. While they won't make as much money as having it at the MCG every year, they would still make plenty of television revenue, especially if they make it a twilight game.

 

[doppleganger]

Considering both points each of you has made, why not have the MCG host every second year, as many have proposed before? But keep the 70k minimum capacity + facilities and infrastructure to match what the MCG and surrounding area offer. You can still have 25-30k corporates at the non-Vic grounds if they get to 70k and can accommodate the grand final events. The AFL won't lose as much money as they would if the MCG gets it every second year instead of every five years. While they won't make as much money as having it at the MCG every year, they would still make plenty of television revenue, especially if they make it a twilight game.

Rotate it to which 70k other stadium?

Sure in 2050 this might be a possibility, but right now it is a nonsense idea because ain't suitable stadiums.

Optus the closest possibility also doesn't make sense, as the likelihood (16 of 18 clubs) is that you will have 2 competing clubs and the circa 35-40k of club members, who get tickets that will have to try to get to Perth....so note how impossible the WA fans tell us trying to get 20k coming to Melbourne is, how will you get double going to Perth??

Only reason it is working this year is the Melbourne and Dogs members who are normally entitled to a ticket are going without.

Is that what people are proposing, that club members miss out?

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Some interstate clubs are royally ****ed at the trade table now especially those in states not traditionally afl. Players all want to be closer to home where family is because of the barriers existing due to covid.

 

[Shane Heard]

The thing is 30-40k of tickets is not an enormous loss of income to the NFL in the scheme of things. It is a very significant amount to the AFL.

Add to that the income drawn from corporate functions etc held in Melbourne in the lead up to and on the day of the GF that simply aren’t as numerous or as profitable if the game is held in SA or WA and the gap between profit from a Melbourne GF and one held interstate becomes quite large.

it’s not the fairest for the comp but that’s the reality.

yep…it’s not about greed, it’s about maximising dollar profit for every single game where possible.

people forget how much 7 and Fox pay for the TV rights to broadcast every game live and the requirements put on the league by those networks to justify the massive dollars pumped in.

Perth fans always complain that Collingwood don’t “ travel “ enough but don’t understand the devotion of their fans and how many turned up at “away” games at the G

Essendon, Richmond and …Carlton (when they’re up & about ) ..the same.

An extra 1 or 2 Perth home games for WC and Freo don’t equate to the amount of money (millions $$) the big 4 bring in at the G

 

[doppleganger]

Perth fans always complain that Collingwood don’t “ travel “ enough but don’t understand the devotion of their fans and how many turned up at “away” games at the G

They also somehow don't get that the AFL looks to limit WA travel as much as possible.

They play more games in SA than they do QLD, and have never played in Canberra.

AFL rarely ever fixtures them outside of WA for pre-season games, instead sending other clubs across the country to play them in WA.

They complain that they get sent to Tassie on a direct flight instead of Melbourne...despite no major difference in travel.

They also still complain and think they are disadvantaged if a Melbourne team travels for a "home game" and meets them half way in the NT.

The WA fans think they deserve two derby's every year, but it is unfair if Melbourne clubs play each other. Laughable.

 

[Shane Heard]

They also somehow don't get that the AFL looks to limit WA travel as much as possible.

They play more games in SA than they do QLD, and have never played in Canberra.

AFL rarely ever fixtures them outside of WA for pre-season games, instead sending other clubs across the country to play them in WA.

They complain that they get sent to Tassie on a direct flight instead of Melbourne...despite no major difference in travel.

They also still complain and think they are disadvantaged if a Melbourne team travels for a "home game" and meets them half way in the NT.

The WA fans think they deserve two derby's every year, but it is unfair if Melbourne clubs play each other. Laughable.

yep…and I wish I had a dollar for every time I hear “ ..and all that plane travel sitting in chairs causes cramping in the players legs..Victorian players have more time in recovery “

 

[doppleganger]

yep…and I wish I had a dollar for every time I hear “ ..and all that plane travel sitting in chairs causes cramping in the players legs..Victorian players have more time in recovery “

It appears they are still running with the it shortens careers line too....despite Freo having 2 more 350+ gamers than Melbourne and Collingwood have produced in 120 years!!

Plenty of Pies player fall off the cliff post 200 games #blockbusterfatigue

 

[bh90210fan]

It appears they are still running with the it shortens careers line too....despite Freo having 2 more 350+ gamers than Melbourne and Collingwood have produced in 120 years!!

Plenty of Pies player fall off the cliff post 200 games #blockbusterfatigue

Lol, at least you get an extra 10 days a season to recover from this blockbuster fatigue while we’re waiting around in airports and jumping on flights.

 

[Shane Heard]

Lol, at least you get an extra 10 days a season to recover from this blockbuster fatigue while we’re waiting around in airports and jumping on flights.

“Waiting around in airports” shackled to cement blocks deprived of food and water and their basic human rights

 

[bh90210fan]

“Waiting around in airports” shackled to cement blocks deprived of food and water and their basic human rights

#travelfatigue

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

When's the last time the pies travelled to Tassie, Darwin, Cairns, Alice, Townsville or China ?

They also somehow don't get that the AFL looks to limit WA travel as much as possible.

They play more games in SA than they do QLD, and have never played in Canberra.

AFL rarely ever fixtures them outside of WA for pre-season games, instead sending other clubs across the country to play them in WA.

They complain that they get sent to Tassie on a direct flight instead of Melbourne...despite no major difference in travel.

They also still complain and think they are disadvantaged if a Melbourne team travels for a "home game" and meets them half way in the NT.

The WA fans think they deserve two derby's every year, but it is unfair if Melbourne clubs play each other. Laughable.

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

How has tv rights, got to do with games at the g? Tv rights are more than ticket sales,

yep…it’s not about greed, it’s about maximising dollar profit for every single game where possible.

people forget how much 7 and Fox pay for the TV rights to broadcast every game live and the requirements put on the league by those networks to justify the massive dollars pumped in.

Perth fans always complain that Collingwood don’t “ travel “ enough but don’t understand the devotion of their fans and how many turned up at “away” games at the G

Essendon, Richmond and …Carlton (when they’re up & about ) ..the same.

An extra 1 or 2 Perth home games for WC and Freo don’t equate to the amount of money (millions $$) the big 4 bring in at the G