Why boycotting Israel matters

[Fat Yak]

Have you got anything to say or are you just going to keep posting s**t from a few bleeding hearts who have never been to Israel.

 

[AM]

Have you got anything to say or are you just going to keep posting s**t from a few bleeding hearts who have never been to Israel.

This from the person who posts Zionist propaganda by the truck load. Hypocrisy writ large.

You seem discomforted by reading the views of good honest humanitarian peace loving Jews.

Blind support for Israel is not friendship

Gideon Levy

 

[TimmeT]

Seven MPs leave Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership

Seven MPs have resigned from the Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's approach to Brexit and anti-Semitism.

They are: Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey.

Ms Berger said Labour had become institutionally anti-Semitic and she was "embarrassed and ashamed" to stay.

Mr Corbyn said he was "disappointed" the MPs had felt unable to continue working for the policies that "inspired millions" at the 2017 election.

The MPs are not launching a new political party - they will sit in Parliament as the Independent group.

But Chuka Umunna said they had "taken the first step" and urged other Labour MPs - and members of other parties - to join them in "building a new politics".

"Politics is broken, it doesn't have to be this way. Let's change it," he said at a launch event in central London.

He said there would be "no merger" with the Liberal Democrats and the group wanted to "build a new alternative".

Chris Leslie said the seven would have its first formal meeting "in a few days" time to "assign roles and responsibilities".

The group rejected comparisons with the SDP - which broke away from the Labour Party in the early 1980s but eventually merged with the Liberal Party - saying it was a different era and they would not be contesting by-elections.

'Painful but necessary decision'
Each of the seven took turns to explain their personal reasons for quitting the party.

Ms Berger said: "This morning we have all now resigned from the Labour Party. This has been a very difficult, painful, but necessary decision.

"We represent different parts of the country, we are of different backgrounds, we were born of different generations, but we all share the same values.

"From today, we will all sit in Parliament as a new independent group of MPs."

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Have you got anything to say or are you just going to keep posting s**t from a few bleeding hearts who have never been to Israel.

Are you saying nobody who hasn't been to Israel can comment on the situation there? Have you been to Israel?

DISCLAIMER: I have not been to Israel. Or the Occupied Territories. I am human however, and believe that there is a better way for humans to treat one another both collectively and as individuals.

 

[AM]

Are you saying nobody who hasn't been to Israel can comment on the situation there? Have you been to Israel?

DISCLAIMER: I have not been to Israel. Or the Occupied Territories. I am human however, and believe that there is a better way for humans to treat one another both collectively and as individuals.

You have to appreciate FY is indoctrinated as distinct from informed, GS. He has railed against any suggestion of occupied territory then posted a video - which presumably he thought in total supported him - that started by acknowledging it's occupied territory. He posted a map highlighting Arab countries in an attempt to in some way link them to Palestine. The truth is most of them are more linked to Israel. Even bottom dwellers like Saudi Arabia with whom Israel trades.

And it's piffle to suggest those I reference don't have a direct connection to Israel. Most either live there or were born there. Or have other connections - eg relatives there. You might have noticed in a recent post some were planting olive trees in part of the annexed territory. Which, incidentally, the settlers uprooted. But to their everlasting credit they returned to replant them.

FY is a typical indoctrinated Zionist who regurgitates their propaganda but - as Zionists do - seeks to stop the other side being put. Frankly, based on some of his commentary in the Sudanese thread you could argue he's decidedly racist as well. He will never change. He, and others like him, are the problem. The hope are the huge and growing numbers of - particularly young - Jews who are humanitarians; who see with clarity the issues; who want peace and stand for justice, equality and dignity.

I worked on a Kibbutz back in the day. Had a great time and have been to Gaza, but not for some time. I have friends who go to Israel quite often. However, they find it quite hard to get into the occupied territory. Wonder why.

 

[Fat Yak]

You have to appreciate FY is indoctrinated as distinct from informed, GS. He has railed against any suggestion of occupied territory then posted a video - which presumably he thought in total supported him - that started by acknowledging it's occupied territory. He posted a map highlighting Arab countries in an attempt to in some way link them to Palestine. The truth is most of them are more linked to Israel. Even bottom dwellers like Saudi Arabia with whom Israel trades.

And it's piffle to suggest those I reference don't have a direct connection to Israel. Most either live there or were born there. Or have other connections - eg relatives there. You might have noticed in a recent post some were planting olive trees in part of the annexed territory. Which, incidentally, the settlers uprooted. But to their everlasting credit they returned to replant them.

FY is a typical indoctrinated Zionist who regurgitates their propaganda but - as Zionists do - seeks to stop the other side being put. Frankly, based on some of his commentary in the Sudanese thread you could argue he's decidedly racist as well. He will never change. He, and others like him, are the problem. The hope are the huge and growing numbers of - particularly young - Jews who are humanitarians; who see with clarity the issues; who want peace and stand for justice, equality and dignity.

I worked on a Kibbutz back in the day. Had a great time and have been to Gaza, but not for some time. I have friends who go to Israel quite often. However, they find it quite hard to get into the occupied territory. Wonder why.

So you are a Hamas supporter who wants the total annihilation of Israel. "From the river to the sea, palestinian will be free."

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Netanyahu government and any future right wing nut job Israel government won't like the Corbyn Government or his Labour successors. No more looking the other way at "He was a bad dude, take our word for it" assassinations. More effort will be required in espionage. And if Israel choose to be disobedient, documents will find their way to the press and the UK will tell them to straighten up and fly right and save the theatrical stuff for elsewhere.

 

[smokingjacket]

So you are a Hamas supporter who wants the total annihilation of Israel. "From the river to the sea, palestinian will be free."

Reasonable question considering you post quite stridently in this thread: what's your relationship with Israel based on?

 

[AM]

So you are a Hamas supporter who wants the total annihilation of Israel. "From the river to the sea, palestinian will be free."

It's the sort of irrational witless comment you've posted before and what we've come to expect from a person who has little grasp of the reality, of my position, or that of those humanitarian Jewish folk who want a peaceful outcome and whose posts I place here. You are a hypocrite who wilfully misrepresents and who has little more to offer than spew hate. At least you serve the purpose of showing first hand why there is an issue in the Middle East. You and people like you are the problem not the solution.

No response to the question by Geelong_Sicko I see.

 

[its free real estate]

the Corbyn Government or his Labour successors

Lol

 

[Fat Yak]

Reasonable question considering you post quite stridently in this thread: what's your relationship with Israel based on?

Never had any interest at all in Israel until I had a former IDF guy and his family moved in next door to me. One thing that struck me was his comment
" Hamas does more harm to the palestinian people than they do to the Israeli people" Think about it.

 

[its free real estate]

Never had any interest at all in Israel until I had a former IDF guy and his family moved in next door to me. One thing that struck me was his comment
" Hamas does more harm to the palestinian people than they do to the Israeli people" Think about it.

The Mossad got to you too!

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Never had any interest at all in Israel until I had a former IDF guy and his family moved in next door to me. One thing that struck me was his comment
" Hamas does more harm to the palestinian people than they do to the Israeli people" Think about it.

I'd be incline to agree, actually. From what I know of Hamas, I wouldn't vote the bastards in. When the PLO had political ascendency, when Olslo was still being thought through, Hamas was there fracturing Palestinian opinion. I dare say they have actually been good for Israeli hardliners.

 

[Fat Yak]

I'd be incline to agree, actually. From what I know of Hamas, I wouldn't vote the bastards in. When the PLO had political ascendency, when Olslo was still being thought through, Hamas was there fracturing Palestinian opinion. I dare say they have actually been good for Israeli hardliners.

The 2000 Camp David Summit, Yasser Arafat could have got almost anything he wanted but said no no no to everything put on the table and returned home to send waves of suicide bombers into Israel. Yasser Arafat failed his own people.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The 2000 Camp David Summit, Yasser Arafat could have got almost anything he wanted but said no no no to everything put on the table and returned home to send waves of suicide bombers into Israel. Yasser Arafat failed his own people.

Two sides to every story;

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/...lure-at-camp-david.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

...I (Robert Malley, Special Assistant to Bill Clinton) was at Camp David, a member of the small American peace team, and I, too, was frustrated almost to the point of despair by the Palestinians' passivity and inability to seize the moment. But there is no purpose -- and considerable harm -- in adding to their real mistakes a list of fictional ones. Here are the most dangerous myths about the Camp David summit.

Myth 1: Camp David was an ideal test of Mr. Arafat's intentions.

Mr. Arafat told us on numerous occasions that he had not wanted to go to Camp David. He thought that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators had not sufficiently narrowed the gaps separating their positions before the summit, and once there, he made clear in his comments that he felt both isolated from the Arab world and alienated by the close Israeli-American partnership. Moreover, the summit occurred at a low point in Mr. Arafat's relationship with Mr. Barak -- the man with whom he was supposed to strike a historic deal. A number of Israeli commitments, including a long-postponed Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and the transfer to Palestinian control of villages abutting Jerusalem, remained unfulfilled, and Mr. Arafat believed that Mr. Barak was simply trying to skirt his obligations. It also took a genuine leap of faith -- for Mr. Barak as for the United States -- to imagine that the 100-year conflict between Jews and Palestinians living in this region, with roots going back thousands of years more and tens of thousands of victims along the way, could be resolved in a fortnight without any of the core issues -- territory, refugees, or the fate of Jerusalem -- having previously been discussed by the leaders.

Myth 2: Israel's offer met most if not all of the Palestinians' legitimate aspirations.

Yes, what was put on the table was more far-reaching than anything any Israeli leader had discussed in the past -- whether with the Palestinians or with Washington. But it was not the dream offer it has been made out to be, at least not from a Palestinian perspective.
To accommodate the settlers, Israel was to annex 9 percent of the West Bank; in exchange, the new Palestinian state would be granted sovereignty over parts of Israel proper, equivalent to one-ninth of the annexed land. A Palestinian state covering 91 percent of the West Bank and Gaza was more than most Americans or Israelis had thought possible, but how would Mr. Arafat explain the unfavorable 9-to-1 ratio in land swaps to his people?

In Jerusalem, Palestine would have been given sovereignty over many Arab neighborhoods of the eastern half and over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City. While it would enjoy custody over the Haram al Sharif, the location of the third-holiest Muslim shrine, Israel would exercise overall sovereignty over this area, known to Jews as the Temple Mount. This, too, was far more than had been thinkable only a few weeks earlier, and a very difficult proposition for the Israeli people to accept. But how could Mr. Arafat have justified to his people that Israel would retain sovereignty over some Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, let alone over the Haram al Sharif? As for the future of refugees -- for many Palestinians, the heart of the matter -- the ideas put forward at Camp David spoke vaguely of a ''satisfactory solution,'' leading Mr. Arafat to fear that he would be asked to swallow an unacceptable last-minute proposal.

Myth 3: The Palestinians made no concession of their own.

Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises.

If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality.

The facts do not indicate, however, any lack of foresight or vision on the part of Ehud Barak. He had uncommon political courage as well. But the measure of Israel's concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point; it must be how far it has moved toward a fair solution.

The Palestinians did not meet their historic responsibilities at the summit either. I suspect they will long regret their failure to respond to President Clinton -- at Camp David and later on -- with more forthcoming and comprehensive ideas of their own.

Finally, Camp David was not rushed. It was many things -- inadequately prepared for, perhaps; too informal, possibly; lacking proper fall-back options, without a doubt -- but premature it was not. By the spring of 2000, every serious Israeli, Palestinian and American analyst was predicting an outbreak of Palestinian violence absent a major breakthrough in the peace process. The Oslo process had run its natural course; if anything, tackling the sensitive final status issues came too late, not too soon...

 

[Fat Yak]

So instead they got * all.

 

[AM]

Never had any interest at all in Israel until I had a former IDF guy and his family moved in next door to me. One thing that struck me was his comment
" Hamas does more harm to the palestinian people than they do to the Israeli people" Think about it.

Think that is what is colloquially known as an own goal.

Two sides to every story;

As you say two sides etc

Excerpt from Stephen Zunes, Foreign Policy in Focus, September 2005. Edited by John Gershman.

 

[its free real estate]

Someone with this many clippings at hand on the state of Israel has to be a paranoid anti Semite. It’s the only logical conclusion.

 

[AM]

Someone with this many clippings at hand on the state of Israel has to be a paranoid anti Semite. It’s the only logical conclusion.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Someone with this many clippings at hand on the state of Israel has to be a paranoid anti Semite. It’s the only logical conclusion.

We live in an electronic Library of Alexandria, matey. Anything you could think to look up, you can. Information. Misinformation. Disinformation. Anything you want to link to, you can. 'Clippings' in the traditional sense no longer exist, as it takes almost no effort whatsoever to post beyond sniffing out the original article.

 

[smokingjacket]

Never had any interest at all in Israel until I had a former IDF guy and his family moved in next door to me. One thing that struck me was his comment
" Hamas does more harm to the palestinian people than they do to the Israeli people" Think about it.

Hamas does harm to the Palestinian people because Israeli fear of Hamas causes the IDF and Israeli society to react to the mildest Palestinian incite with totally disproportionate force?

 

[its free real estate]

We live in an electronic Library of Alexandria, matey. Anything you could think to look up, you can. Information. Misinformation. Disinformation. Anything you want to link to, you can. 'Clippings' in the traditional sense no longer exist, as it takes almost no effort whatsoever to post beyond sniffing out the original article.

I don't think you've done a post count on this thread by user.

 

[strauchnyy]

If you care so much about democracy and corruption how can you support a regime that has 4 PM's in a row that have been found to be corrupt?
If the PM of a supposedly democratic country is corrupt & gets re-elected what does that say about the mentality of those that voted for him?
If the PM is corrupt about one thing, you can bet your last dollar it isn't the only thing he is corrupt about.

It is a pattern. Corruption is happening more and more in Israel because it gets washed over because, as you have ably demonstrated, anyone that dares criticise Israel is immediately condemned as an anti-Semite. This kind of white-washing allows people like Netanyahu to thrive despite being corrupt.

Its obvious Bibi is a bit shady.

Interested in your thoughts on corruption on the Palestinian side?

You know, the millions stolen by Arafat
the witholding of aid by hamas from gazans
the fact Abbas has overun his term and refuses an election?

Thoughts on the much, much larger and more significant corruption on the palestinian side?

 

[strauchnyy]

Genocide.
Spin it all you want.
It is genocide and when the time comes the ICC will make it official and there will be nowhere to hide for Israelis who committed these crimes against humanity. They will & should stand next to Nazis as despicable, vile human beings that should rot their life away in a jail cell.

If the population is increasing, how is it genocide?

 

[Number37]

Its obvious Bibi is a bit shady.

Interested in your thoughts on corruption on the Palestinian side?

You know, the millions stolen by Arafat
the witholding of aid by hamas from gazans
the fact Abbas has overun his term and refuses an election?

Thoughts on the much, much larger and more significant corruption on the palestinian side?

Equally as corrupt as the Israelis.
The millions of innocent Palestinians are the ones that pay the price for the corruption on both sides.