Why did we join the AFL?

[Sandola]

Here's another waiting-for-the-draft question. Why did Port Adelaide want to join the AFL? The Magpies were pretty big frogs in a pretty big pond, so why rock the boat? (Oh, never mind the mangled metaphor.) Where did the push to join the AFL come from? Was there much opposition from within the club?

I know a little about the push to join, and the opposition from, apparently, the rest of South Australia, but what made it possible to even think about joining the national comp? Why was it seen as a desirable thing to do?

It would be great to get some observations, opinions, about this from some of you who were actually there, so to speak, at the time.

(And it would be REALLY great for this thread not to become another "who is the real PAFC/when did the PAFC come into being" brouhaha, but that's up to you. )

 

[Borscht Mat]

the objective of the club has always to be the most successful club in the most successful competition in the land. We have always judged ourselves on a national level, and so dominating what was obviously a 2nd tier competition (say after 1985) was simply at odds with that objective. It was the most natural step for the club to take.

 

[Groove]

the objective of the club has always to be the most successful club in the most successful competition in the land. We have always judged ourselves on a national level, and so dominating what was obviously a 2nd tier competition (say after 1985) was simply at odds with that objective. It was the most natural step for the club to take.

Thats pretty much how i see it, we cant be seen as the best if we are only dominating a league which isnt on par with the AFL.

 

[Toots Hibbert]

Sandy, Bruce Abernethy wrote an excellent book on the subject entitled "From Port to a Power" which looks at the reasons for Port joining the AFL and the personalities and machinations involved. For anyone interested in the subject this is a great source of information. It's published by Wakefield Press.

 

[Mitch Power]

Here's another waiting-for-the-draft question. Why did Port Adelaide want to join the AFL? The Magpies were pretty big frogs in a pretty big pond, so why rock the boat? (Oh, never mind the mangled metaphor.) Where did the push to join the AFL come from? Was there much opposition from within the club?

I know a little about the push to join, and the opposition from, apparently, the rest of South Australia, but what made it possible to even think about joining the national comp? Why was it seen as a desirable thing to do?

It would be great to get some observations, opinions, about this from some of you who were actually there, so to speak, at the time.

(And it would be REALLY great for this thread not to become another "who is the real PAFC/when did the PAFC come into being" brouhaha, but that's up to you. )

Basically, the club's ethos is to play in the best league in the land. In the 80's, many South Australian players were crossing the border to play in the VFL recognised as the strongest league in the country. As a result the SANFL soon became a 2nd tier league with delisted or fringe players from the VFL coming west and young South Australian players moving east. In fact, Port Adelaide had already lost many players to the VFL and were expecting to lose as many as 10 players from the 1990 premiership team which was a major reason why the club accepted Ross Oakley's offer to join the AFL as early as 1991. History shows we failed in that bid but were successful in 1997. With the Port Adelaide football club now in the AFL, a part of its agreement with the SANFL was that it had to form a Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club to carry own the history of the Port Adelaide Football Club in the SANFL.

So Sandola in summary, 2 reasons - (1) we expect to play in the best league in the land, and (2) being the most successful club in Australia and providing many players to VFL/AFL clubs over the years, we had more to lose if we didn't join the AFL. All Port Adelaide supporters were behind the club's push in 1990 to join the AFL.

It should be noted, that Norwood was the only other SANFL club that came close to Port in terms of support, success, ethos and history and I believe deserve to be playing in a national competition today, however they are now destined to disappear or "rot" into SANFL oblivion.

I have a lot of mates who follow Norwood and after all these years, are still bitter that Norwood has missed the national league boat.

 

[shaz63]

The way I see it is that Port Adelaide want to be the best, it's just the Port Adelaide way. But they couldn't do that being in a 2nd tier league like the SANFL.

 

[Powerstufff]

Survival was another reason. Go back 30 years and football was suffering in all Aussie Rules states. The national comp offered the only chance of survival and Port wanted to be in it before the boat had sailed. To see the price of failure look now at those who were our greatest competitors, especially Norwood. Or look at Centrals - finally successful but too late.

 

[exe ex machina]

notes -

circa late 1800s...aussie rules was the dominant game australia-wide, including nsw, qld, tasmania, nz. players regularly moved around to different states to keep the game competitive standard. they used to hold regular interstate carnivals and matches.

circa early 1900s....championship of australia games played. at the time aussie rules had already had a strong desire to be national. victorians at the time reluctant both in sport and commerce to consider non-vics equal. the sa will continue to push for a national comp over this century.

circa early 1930s....again players regularly took payments for playing for interstate teams to keep the standard up.

circa early 1940s....fos williams notes victorian game is becoming stronger and brings some victorian training methods and tactics to the sanfl...this spreads to the wafl indirectly.

circa 1960s....with the game becoming more professional in victoria and larger population base, the talent of wa/sa players starts to move in trickles to the vfl.

circa late 1960s-early-1970s....championship of australia games are brought back again. however, the difference in standard starting to emerge between vfl and sanfl/wafl teams. apart from the 1972 roosters team, vfl pretty much easily defeats all others.

circa early 1970s.....a concerted talent exodus begins towards the vfl. talent stolen. players also seeking bigger payments/stages.

circa mid 1980s....SA'n business interests continue to dream of a national comp, they establish a comp called the NFL which features all wafl/sanfl/vfl teams in a comp. this lasts a couple years before the vfl rejects the concept. standard of non-vic teams slipping. the vfl allows a pre-season night comp inviting sanfl/wafl teams, but after poor showings from sanfl/wafl teams the vfl stops inviting non-vic teams.

circa mid-1980s...the vfl trademarks/registers the name AFL with the intention of creating a 'national comp' on invitation only into the 'vfl'.

circa mid-1980s....east perth initially (i think) flirts with the vfl. This is the first crack to show in the previously proud to remain separate wa/sa leagues. in the end, the West Coast Eagles are given a license in 1987 as a new conglomerate club that is supported by the wafl teams and which supports the wafl league. Brisbane Bears are also granted a license. Along with the already relocated Sydney Swans. The landscape is starting to loom doomfully on the wafl/sanfl.

1990....the vfl renames itself officially the AFL, in the process proclaiming itself THE national identity/profile of Australian Rules Football. The sanfl up to this point has refused to acknowledge such a thing or a desire to join such an elitist and potentially ruinous competition. ruinous to the history, heritage, and equal esteem of all wafl/sanfl clubs to vfl clubs. However, the reality is that it will be inevitable. Norwood makes a clandestine bid to join the AFL, and Port Adelaide learns about this and also decides to put a bid in urgently, as they have always been the main party over the century in pushing for a national comp (fos williams), and feel it is their given right to not miss out on such a thing, cannot allow norwood to one-up them here.

1990....the AFL initially grants Port Adelaide a license to join the AFL, even going so far as to allow Port Adelaide to retain the black/white colors and magpie name. Collingwood hears about this, though it's all supposedly secret, and immediately threatens the AFL with legal action. They also dob Port Adelaide in to the sanfl. The sanfl are outraged. And demand that the AFL should allow a SA team that is composite of all the other sanfl teams bar Port, and that Port be banned from entering the AFL till 1996 (to allow the Crows to establish a profile). Collingwood in the process forces the AFL to force Port to have to change its colors and mascot when 1996 comes.

1995....Fitzroy is told to merge with Footscray. The AFL encouraging someone somewhere to merge in order for the promised Port entry to occur in 1996. Fitzroy however refuses to and continues to try to survive. Mergers elsewhere collapse. Port told to wait another year. By 1997 the AFL has somehow pushed Fitzroy's hand to accept a merger with Brisbane, and Fitzroy signs.

1997....Port president and Collingwood president, continuing to row over the colors, make a bet that whichever team is the first to win 3 in a row against the other will be forever allowed to own the black/white colors. They shake hands. In 1998, Port is on the cusp of winning 3 in a row. Collingwood in this match fight very very hard to win at all costs, but fall by 1 point (proving how serious they took this bet). However, Port wins 3 in a row. But true to form, Collingwood president backs out of the bet.

Circa 2003....heritage guernsey worn by Port. Collingwood's recent president forces AFL to ban Port for 3 years from wearing this guernsey.

Meanwhile....in the AFL....3 teams wear blue/white, carlton, roos, geelong. Geelong and Carlton the exact shade of blue. Meanwhile, Roos, Hawthorn, Cwood, all share the same 3 stripe design, yet Cwood doesnt complain. Meanwhile, essendon and richmond share the same design and no one complains. Also, for over 80 or so years, Cwood has worn a predominantly white guernsey with black stripes. But in the late 90s redesign their guernsey black with white stripes in order to monopolize this design. They also create the pre-season comp guernsey, which is a close resemblance to Port Magpies guernsey, to stop I guess Port from wearing similar.

circa 2005-2008....the AFL has basically ruined the once-glorious equal heritage and esteem of sanfl.wafl clubs like Norwood, Sturt, East Fremantle. Who were all over the century comparitively equal to the great vfl clubs of the century. Ironically, in the process, the AFL has also ruined and continues to ruin the once stable VFL teams. Teams like Kangaroos, St Kilda, South Melbourne, Fitzroy, Melbourne, Footscray, Hawthorn have all gone through merging scares, and continue to court the idea of interstate relocation to avoid the slow economic struggle of 10 vic based teams. Meanwhile, Collingwood, though one of the least best performing teams over the last 50 years, continues to shore up greater AFL support and favoritism among the vic based teams, Cwood positioning itself through threats, bullish attitudes, and financial deals to position itself as the most secure vic team above all others.

Circa 2015....the AFL potentially could look very different, with a swathe of relocated vic teams. leaving about 4-6 traditional vfl teams left. This could potentially cause a collapse of the AFL competition as victorians revolt against the demise of vic teams and SA'ns still antagonistic towards the cheaper principled AFL version of a national comp.

 

[scotty13]

Only two things u forgot to mention.
in the 50's i think it was Foster Neil proposed to the SANFL to create a national comp as he thought this would be a great way to raise the standard of footy. The SANFL laughed in his face at the idea saying it will never happen and i believe initially the VFL also laughed at the idea of a national comp until the 80's when they were broke.

2015. I will be a multi-multi-multi billionaire and will create a truely national comp with teams coming from each state/territory and the amount based on the football population of each state at that time.

 

[The Dice Man]

Only two things u forgot to mention.
in the 50's i think it was Foster Neil proposed to the SANFL to create a national comp as he thought this would be a great way to raise the standard of footy. The SANFL laughed in his face at the idea saying it will never happen and i believe initially the VFL also laughed at the idea of a national comp until the 80's when they were broke.

2015. I will be a multi-multi-multi billionaire and will create a truely national comp with teams coming from each state/territory and the amount based on the football population of each state at that time.

I think they laughed, and even locked up, Louis Pasteur when he came out and said there were germs in the air that were harmful to people, but you couldnt see them.



I'd just like to ask, why on earth Port were so succesful in the state comp before joining the AFL?

What was it that made the Port Magpies so far and away better than the rest?

 

[exe ex machina]

scotty, i also wish i were as wealthy as packer etc because the first thing id do is demolish the AFL and create a truer national comp, that equally embraces the heritage of all clubs. the AFL is a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless.

and dice man....port were successful because of the spirit of such a working class area, all rallying behind a common goal - sport, their team, sense of pride above what the state generally regards those people at a social level. plus....what foster williams brought to the club, the club ethos (which can be found on the pamfc website).

its quite remarkable actually that such a small region could become so consistently dominant in a sport over a hundred years. even in joining in 97 with a bunch of sanfl players with no afl support/concessions they pretty much immediately achieved afl success too....3 minor premierships, 2 pre-season cups, 1 afl flag, and only missed the finals 2 times, all in only 8 years.

people dont realize it yet, but port will start dominating the afl competition over the next 20 years...its just the nature. no matter the talent available etc, they will somehow dominate flag winnings etc....the bigger the challenge, the comp, the bigger the satisfaction to rise, succeed.

 

[The Dice Man]

scotty, i also wish i were as wealthy as packer etc because the first thing id do is demolish the AFL and create a truer national comp, that equally embraces the heritage of all clubs. the AFL is a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless.

and dice man....port were successful because of the spirit of such a working class area, all rallying behind a common goal - sport, their team, sense of pride above what the state generally regards those people at a social level. plus....what foster williams brought to the club, the club ethos (which can be found on the pamfc website).

its quite remarkable actually that such a small region could become so consistently dominant in a sport over a hundred years. even in joining in 97 with a bunch of sanfl players with no afl support/concessions they pretty much immediately achieved afl success too....3 minor premierships, 2 pre-season cups, 1 afl flag, and only missed the finals 2 times, all in only 8 years.

people dont realize it yet, but port will start dominating the afl competition over the next 20 years...its just the nature. no matter the talent available etc, they will somehow dominate flag winnings etc....the bigger the challenge, the comp, the bigger the bigger the effort to rise.

Thanks.

The reason I asked is because some clubs seem almost destined to constantly succeed, while other clubs seem to be cursed to constantly fail (St.Kilda for example).

In the old SANFL, Port were obviously far and away a succesful club, of the kind teh VFL never saw.. Sure Essendon and Carlton have 17 or 18 cups or whatever, but Port had 35(IIRC), and I agree their introduction into the AFL has been a success from the start.

My knowledge on SANFL is basically non-existent, I know a few teams and that Port won more often than not, but I was wondering why this was. Perhaps they bought the best players, or somehow attracted the best players through a succesful reputation and history.

 

[Troy Wingate]

Port Adelaide is just one of those clubs that is destined to succeed, no matter what competition they are in, because it's the true Port Adelaide tradition.

Port Adelaide Power has been a success story right from Day 1, apart from the year with finished 14th or 15th, you could say 2005 was our worst year, and we still finished 6th, and it will likely be a our worst year for years to come, because failure and losing are not in Port Adelaide's vocabulary.

Port Adelaide will dominate the AFL, and any league it's involved in. By 2020, the Power will have no less than another 5 AFL Premierships added to that cabinet at Alberton.

 

[The Dice Man]

Port Adelaide is just one of those clubs that is destined to succeed, no matter what competition they are in, because it's the true Port Adelaide tradition.

Port Adelaide Power has been a success story right from Day 1, apart from the year with finished 14th or 15th, you could say 2005 was our worst year, and we still finished 6th, and it will likely be a our worst year for years to come, because failure and losing are not in Port Adelaide's vocabulary.

Port Adelaide will dominate the AFL, and any league it's involved in. By 2020, the Power will have no less than another 5 AFL Premierships added to that cabinet at Alberton.

Your arrogance is noted.


But, how did you interpret Williams's comments that you wont be competative for the next three years? I mean going by your confidence and expectation of constant success, surely Mark's comments would make alot of your supporters want to string him to a tree and de-ball him?

 

[exe ex machina]

dice man, again, the reason for their success was....this is a small community, full of working class men/women. hard times back in the 1800s thru to the 1900s. and often the butt of jokes or disrespect by the broader Adelaide population. usually, sporting teams that represent such areas are the most successful. this is true around the world. for instance, pittsburgh steelers in the nfl. the reason is because these communities have little comfort, little to gloat about. so they usually rally behind their sporting teams as a defining force of their community. the same could be said of Don Bradman as a mere Australian upstart competing against the superior English. Initially, this was the impetus for success. However, what truly defined Port Adelaide, what pushed them beyond mere occasional success to absolute dominance, was all the work of Fos Williams. Before he came, the club had won sanfl flags, had been successful, but not too often. Fos Williams had visited Victoria and seen how the Vics during the 40s had developed superior leg strength and conditioning, and how they played a particular style of game. Fos brought all this to the sanfl, to Port. However, Fos' real gift was in his philosophy. Go to the port adelaide magpies website and you can read what it is. Inspiring words. He also had a very good gameplan, minimal handpassing and direct kicking. He also had that genius coaching ability of turning mediocre players into stars. During his reign in the 50s Fos brought Port a swag of flags, something like 8 in 12 years. The whole time with mediocre players. At one time he quit club for a couple years, and those same players still there, Port barely made the finals in those 2 years. They brought him back and immediately he stirred the same players into another 2 flags.

When Fos retired from coaching, his natural successor would be John Cahill. My personal all-time favorite coach of any league. John Cahill had the same qualities. Able to turn everyday players into flag winners. Very good with motivational speeches. Plus, he had a killer gameplan - direct kicking up the ground, the long game, minimal handpassing, etc, at all costs. Cahill won something like 10 flags in 12 GFs for Port. Perhaps more. Again, when he left the magpies, the same group of players couldnt rise. But when he returned this year, he brought them back to the finals. Next year Port may well playoff in the sanfl GF.

So, the reason for this major spurt of success (over 25 flags in 50 years) was because Fos Williams' ethos and coaching ability. One of his players, John Cahill, would naturally continue what he learned under Fos + add his own style. Port were very fortunate to have both these men drive the club for so many years. It wasn't just them alone, because I fancy Cahill/Williams would have still had success with other sanfl teams but not as much as Port, because that other aspect of the community itself, the chip on its shoulder, had an equal hand in it.

Obviously, therefore, Mark Williams, son of Fos, would also be a natural successor to the Fos-Cahill chain. Mark has his own game plan (which i dont like) but does have the Fos-Cahill fire and Port chip-on-the-shoulder needed. Mark Williams has done incredible work with the Power.

Again, in all three coaches....they didnt always have the best talent going around, but were able to develop and train players into success-driven players. Much of that also comes into smart recruitment too. Port excell at this. But its not like they recruit top-flight players. They have a great knack at picking up washed up, unwanted, regular players, all with promise, and develop them into top performers willing to spill blood for the pride of Port. Josh Mahoney and Peter Walsh are great examples of this. Both have turned into major consistent top-performers. They turned a basketball player in Dean Brogan into a highly efficient ruck-forward.

And always circulating within all these reasons is the Fos Williams' ethos of never giving in, of competing means exhausting yourself mind and body, and never accepting defeat, always demanding success, within yourself and for your club.

 

[The Dice Man]

Thanks g.g. I find it genuinley interesting how a club in any competition can be so succesful

Going by your posts, it's the last 50 years specifically where Port surged ahead and totally dominated the comp and this is all due to the philosophy of one man, Fos Williams.. where Cahill picked up his methods and so on...

One wonders why Cahill wasnt succesfull in the VFL. But I guess he didnt have the same culture and support around him at Collingwood.

Was there ever any talk of other clubs kicking Port out, or forming their own league or anything similar in an attempt to end the dominance?

 

[exe ex machina]

as far as i know, i dont think the sanfl ever wanted to kick port out for being successful. the only time there were swellings of anti-port were during the fallout of 1990 when port had made a bid for afl entry and all the other clubs felt betrayed.

and yes, from around the 40/50s when fos came right thru cahill's helm, port gained that dominance. but, mind you, the early 1900s also saw a port reign of dominance when they won 4 championship of australia games and went undefeated in 1914. they had awesome talent then though, like Harold Oliver, in every position on the field. but every team in every league has a period of dominance that doesnt return sometimes ever, or for decades. Fitzroy dominated early vfl football never to rise again. Collingwoods swag of 14 flags, 11 of them were all before 1950, when the comp was less competitive. Hawthorn had that awesome dominance thru the 80s. One team which has had regular success has been Carlton, which seems to win a flag or two every decade, right thru their hundred years.

but yeah, likely without fos/cahill, port would have had a few droughts of flags.

 

[The Dice Man]

Im not being a smart ass, I was just putting myself in your shoes for a minute (I almost spewed), but that teal jumper must really mess you up?

I know it's just a jumper, but it symbolises so much and if I was a Adeladian who followed port for decades, Id be disappointed you have to wear teal(I dont mean teal specifically, more that the teal is the color that takes away from your original colors).

 

[exe ex machina]

funny you say that. i have personally written the pafc numerous times about this issue, and they seem to say, "we are trying to distinguish the Power from the Magpies, and feel the current guernsey is the direction to go"...however, its a bit of a false reason seeing as they pushed hard to have black/white/magpies, and so keen to embrace the prison-bar design in the heritage and also their 'clash' guernsey which has a prison-bar design to it. i feel that they are being bullied around still by Cwood/AFL about this and have to toe the line, cos everyone knows if put to a vote and they were allowed to, they would embrace the prison-bars in the AFL.

also, i dont hate the teal, but i would prefer more prison-bar than the squigly white lines. however, port's other official color is silver, which theyve never used. so i guess that perhaps theyd be looking to one-up Cwood by creating a replica prison-bar magpies guernsey except in silver not white, maybe a splash of teal somewhere too. theyre holding that color up their sleeve for a reason, my guess is that.

above all though, in the end, its highway robbery of Cwood to even be able to force the AFL into banning Port from wearing black/white. like i said, there are 3 blue/white teams. obviously it doesnt matter but Cwood being bad sports. in the english soccer, in american basketball, in most sports, teams are allowed whatever the hell colors represent their region, their history. theres no monopoly. maybe the magpies name ok is a clash and port has to change, but the color thing is absurd.

still, as long as port continues to dominate the afl landscape, being in the top 2 most winningest teams already, and winning flags, and Cwood being one of the bottom 3 winningest teams, and not winning flags...then thats the real victory.

 

[Portia]

Was there ever any talk of other clubs kicking Port out, or forming their own league or anything similar in an attempt to end the dominance?

Nah, the reason being that there was always at least one rival that reckoned they could take care of us. Admitting Port was dominant was the one thing no other SANFL club was willing to do, which was high comedy.

The closest to an organised action against Port was when the SANFL added clubs that cut down Port's recruiting zone. Well, that and when we tried to join the AFL.

 

[Malibu#27]

Thanks g.g. I find it genuinley interesting how a club in any competition can be so succesful

Going by your posts, it's the last 50 years specifically where Port surged ahead and totally dominated the comp and this is all due to the philosophy of one man, Fos Williams.. where Cahill picked up his methods and so on...

One wonders why Cahill wasnt succesfull in the VFL. But I guess he didnt have the same culture and support around him at Collingwood.

Was there ever any talk of other clubs kicking Port out, or forming their own league or anything similar in an attempt to end the dominance?

Cahill was on local radio a month or so ago, and was asked the question of how far behind the Victorian clubs the Port magpies were (back in the 80's). His answer, was that to compare the professionalism of Port and collingwood (where he had coached) was ludicrous ... Port was that far in front it wasn't funny.

Obvioulsy times havechanged since then ... but this professionalism is one of the reasons Port was always destined for success.




As for other SANFL clubs joining together and kicking Port out ... pre AFL it could never have happened, finincially, Port was the major contributor to the SANFL.

 

[Toots Hibbert]

There's a bit more to it than that though. The Port was one of the economic power houses of SA. PAFC was formed by community minded local business men to provide an outlet for the young men of the district. People are forgetting that along with the passion and energy of the working people the other strand to Port history is the great administration the club has had which is derived from the business expertise of the area. There are those who like to snipe at Port for selling it's soul to the corporate ethos. Nothing could be further from the truth. PAFC has always been outward looking, smart and passionate.

 

[Magpiespower]

Few realize that we only became the most successful SANFL clubs in terms of premierships won in 1979. Until then Norwood had ALWAYS held the record for the most number of premierships.

The push to create a national competition really began in earnest in the 1980s...

1981 - SANFL General Manager Don Roach visits VFL admin to sound them out about the possibility of a South Australian team joining an expanded VFL. Laughed out of their offices.

1985 - Port and Norwood meet with a VFL official and Federal Sports Minister John Brown in the South Park Motor Inn to discuss joining their competition.

1990 - May: Ian Collins and John Adams make a presentation to Norwood after hearing that the Redlegs were interested in joining the AFL. They speak to Port as well.

June: Bruce Weber meets with Ross Oakley. Mike Sheahan breaks the story that Port were about to join the AFL.

Later, a leaked correspondence between Collins, Adams and Norwood implies that Norwood were planning to break away as well. The leak is traced back to Alan Schwab. According to Collins:

"Norwood then ran scared and accused us of being stooges of the AFL."

[Quote taken from Football Ltd: The inside story of the AFL by Gary Linnell, pp.348-351]

So it was never just Port Adelaide that harboured VFL/AFL ambitions.

 

[Powerful Shane]

The best football club in Australia has to be a part of the best football competition in Australia. It is as simple as that.

The only thing that annoys me, and will until the day I die, is that the
Adelaide Crows were in the AFL before us.

 

[Sandola]

Thanks, everyone! What great replies. So it really has been Manifest Destiny, with everyone saying "let's do it" along the way.
Thanks also, g.g., for yet more reasons to hate Collingwood (the dobbing and the reneging on the 3-in-a-row bet; the guernseys were already on the list.) And, Toots, I tracked down a copy of the Abernethy book, and it will sit proudly next to "Dynasty" on my bookshelf.