Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Sydney Bloods]

If you find how the initial energy came into existence then your home but saying it always existed won't count.

This reductionist thing.. does it need a finite number of things to be discovered. If the things to be discovered are infinite then whose reducing what.

the people that point to things being "the domain of god", shall i recap all the nonsense we've dismissed over the last 2000 years?
such as the sun rotating around the earth? viruses being a punishment from god? thunder meaning god was angry? comets being harbingers of destruction?

I mean s**t we've learned how matter gains its mass FFS. yet still people cling to the unknown as the source of their god. it is a pitiful cause, doomed to fail.

 

[Boston tiger]

the people that point to things being "the domain of god", shall i recap all the nonsense we've dismissed over the last 2000 years?
such as the sun rotating around the earth? viruses being a punishment from god? thunder meaning god was angry? comets being harbingers of destruction?

I mean s**t we've learned how matter gains its mass FFS. yet still people cling to the unknown as the source of their god. it is a pitiful cause, doomed to fail.

I d say what hasn't changed since humans climbed out of the swamp and looked up at the stars and experienced infinity for the first time was that we are human and there will always be the unknowable.

Just because we have disproved the Sun god doesn't mean we are on the road to infinite knowledge. We are human and all the discoveries won't get us anywhere near the levels of consciousness to know how something can be created from nothing or always exist because that doesn't lie in parameters of a human thought etc yet we know it must be true.

But it will be an interesting journey.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

as i said, if you find your god in the unknown, you better pray.

 

[IschenkoUBeauty]

The answer has always been a flat-out no.

 

[jinny1]

how something can be created from nothing or always exist

Man people still using this as an argument literally have done no scientific research or read any papers. Holy s**t! We have so many completely plausible theories on this that we do not need invoke a God anymore.

Your argument is basically argument from incredulity and ignorance combined. IF you dont understand quantum mechanics and mathematical equations models which outline how the universe COULD have came to be then do some research because blabbering on about how you don't understand it.

But i know you won't. You people never do. Your understanding of the first law of thermodynamics just showcases this. I expect you to keep going on about how there has to be a God because you refuse to believe and understand how the universe could have come to be without super-magical fairy powers.

Oh and don't forget about irreducible complexity! That's another popular one. How can eyes just pop into existence when they are so complex!?!?!?! It seems all theistic arguments start with the word "How" i.e. Using God of the gaps because you are uneducated, biased, ignorant and naive. Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean we have to automatically invoke super-powers into the equation.

Seriously your entire religion has forever relied on the God of the gaps argument. It is literally how religion was formed; because early humans didn't know how to explain rainbows, thunderstorms and headaches. It wasn’t long ago that the bible was the absolute letter of the law and completely literal. People including Galileo were severely punished and even killed for even suggesting things that opposed the bible; like the Sun being the centre of the solar system. Do you see the trend?? The progression of science is directly related to the deterioration of religion.

 

[Boston tiger]

Man people still using this as an argument literally have done no scientific research or read any papers. Holy s**t! We have so many completely plausible theories on this that we do not need invoke a God anymore.

Your argument is basically argument from incredulity and ignorance combined. IF you dont understand quantum mechanics and mathematical equations models which outline how the universe COULD have came to be then do some research because blabbering on about how you don't understand it.

But i know you won't. You people never do. Your understanding of the first law of thermodynamics just showcases this. I expect you to keep going on about how there has to be a God because you refuse to believe and understand how the universe could have come to be without super-magical fairy powers.

Oh and don't forget about irreducible complexity! That's another popular one. How can eyes just pop into existence when they are so complex!?!?!?! It seems all theistic arguments start with the word "How" i.e. Using God of the gaps because you are uneducated, biased, ignorant and naive. Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean we have to automatically invoke super-powers into the equation.

Seriously your entire religion has forever relied on the God of the gaps argument. It is literally how religion was formed; because early humans didn't know how to explain rainbows, thunderstorms and headaches. It wasn’t long ago that the bible was the absolute letter of the law and completely literal. People including Galileo were severely punished and even killed for even suggesting things that opposed the bible; like the Sun being the centre of the solar system. Do you see the trend?? The progression of science is directly related to the deterioration of religion.

Welcome to the God question. A good start is to take yourself out this universe and look at the big picture. Start from the now and don't worry what ancient books say about it as you'll find yourself sidetracked.

By all means bring in all what man has discovered and as it certainly adds to the discussion. Very interested to hear in laymans terms how thermodynamics explains how something can come from nothing or that something could have always existed.

Ps The most spiritual thing I ever heard growing up was ... Matter can't be created or destroyed .. If that doesn't start you thinking about the limitations of man nothing will.

Ps

You're gone for the people's magazine version of history regarding Galileo and the Church.

No need to use terms like blabber etc as it just doesn't help a good discussion and as you know there are brighter people than you and I that on a philosophy level are more on the incomprehensible side... than the... there are no tricks ahead just mans ability to acquire Knowledge and that it will in the end there are no mysteries. Etc
.

 

[jinny1]

Welcome to the God question. A good start is to take yourself out this universe and look at the big picture. Start from the now and don't worry what ancient books say about it as you'll find yourself sidetracked.

By all means bring in all what man has discovered and as it certainly adds to the discussion. Very interested to hear in laymans terms how thermodynamics explains how something can come from nothing or that something could have always existed.

Ps The most spiritual thing I ever heard growing up was ... Matter can't be created or destroyed .. If that doesn't start you thinking about the limitations of man nothing will.

Ps

You're gone for the people's magazine version of history regarding Galileo and the Church.

No need to use terms like blabber etc as it just doesn't help a good discussion and as you know there are brighter people than you and I that on a philosophy level are more on the incomprehensible side... than the... there are no tricks ahead just mans ability to acquire Knowledge and that it will in the end there are no mysteries. Etc
.

My understanding of history of the Church is just as bad as your superficial understanding of Science and the first law of thermo.

IF it intrigued you so much, why didn't you at least study physics at university?? Instead of forever not knowing exactly what is meant by the 1st law and it's limitations.

Sorry but i'm just visiting here! You can easily research this on your own as long as it isn't from GodisReal.com or some crazy sites like that.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Ps The most spiritual thing I ever heard growing up was ... Matter can't be created or destroyed .. If that doesn't start you thinking about the limitations of man nothing will.

not matter, energy and that only applies within an independent system.
the only independent system we are aware of is the universe, it is one of the laws of the physics, the big bang model says physics as we understand it was created with the big bang.

do understand where this is going? before the big bang thermodynamics as we understand it, simply did not exist. hell time as we understand it didn't exist.

 

[Number37]

Man people still using this as an argument literally have done no scientific research or read any papers. Holy s**t! We have so many completely plausible theories on this that we do not need invoke a God anymore.

Your argument is basically argument from incredulity and ignorance combined. IF you dont understand quantum mechanics and mathematical equations models which outline how the universe COULD have came to be then do some research because blabbering on about how you don't understand it.

But i know you won't. You people never do. Your understanding of the first law of thermodynamics just showcases this. I expect you to keep going on about how there has to be a God because you refuse to believe and understand how the universe could have come to be without super-magical fairy powers.

Oh and don't forget about irreducible complexity! That's another popular one. How can eyes just pop into existence when they are so complex!?!?!?! It seems all theistic arguments start with the word "How" i.e. Using God of the gaps because you are uneducated, biased, ignorant and naive. Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean we have to automatically invoke super-powers into the equation.

Seriously your entire religion has forever relied on the God of the gaps argument. It is literally how religion was formed; because early humans didn't know how to explain rainbows, thunderstorms and headaches. It wasn’t long ago that the bible was the absolute letter of the law and completely literal. People including Galileo were severely punished and even killed for even suggesting things that opposed the bible; like the Sun being the centre of the solar system. Do you see the trend?? The progression of science is directly related to the deterioration of religion.

Sounds a lot like the Richard Dawkins argument...put 20 people into a room and ask them to make a wish, if their wishes don't come true , God doesn't exist.
None of the religious books are intended to operate like the 'make a wish foundation', the religious people that make this suggestion are widely criticised and so should be the non religious who invoke it to make their point.
Arguing look how much we have disproved its only a matter time is nothing more than a post hoc fallacy.

 

[CM86]

Arguing look how much we have disproved its only a matter time is nothing more than a post hoc fallacy.

Why and how??

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Why and how??

BECAUSE RELIGION THATS WHY!

 

[tesseract]

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[CM86]

"Women are ******* up video games!!!" - tesserhack

 

[jinny1]

Sounds a lot like the Richard Dawkins argument...put 20 people into a room and ask them to make a wish, if their wishes don't come true , God doesn't exist.
None of the religious books are intended to operate like the 'make a wish foundation', the religious people that make this suggestion are widely criticised and so should be the non religious who invoke it to make their point.
Arguing look how much we have disproved its only a matter time is nothing more than a post hoc fallacy.

What? How is what i said analogous to putting 20 people in a room and asking to make a wish? wtf.

Anyway, arguing how much we have disproved your religion is a massive problem for Christianity. Because if the Bible is truly the word of God then it shouldn't contain any of the mistakes, lies, inaccuracies and anachronisms that it does. Pretty much everything in the old testament has been refuted already by scholars, theologians and biblical archaeologists. I mean NONE of the major biblical figures in the OT are actually identified in any extra-biblical sources! This is incredible. You would've thought that King Solomon would've had regular correspondence with kings/queens from other countries?? Or that somebody would bother to write about Kings? Only minor figures mentioned in the bible like King Nebuchadnezzar are actual real historical people.

Not to mention Egypt is a focal point in the old testament with the Exodus of Moses and his people. Yet, there is not one single artefact that eludes to any of those stories. In the Cairo museum one can see thousands of artefacts from ancient Egyptian history going back 5000 years. Their language was sophisticated enough that we know what kind of crops they grew. Who their Gods were. Who their kings and queens were and even that they had cats and dogs as pets! Yet, during all these incredible happenings we read about in the bible, not one person took note. Not a single hierglyph, etching, picture or statue or anything that recorded any of those events. Now that's incredible. The only place you find anything about moses/people about it is in the bible, as if it was a legendary story passed down from generation to generation. The Bible describes 2.5 and 3 million in total left Egypt. So 3 million people travelling all over Africa for decades being fed by bread from the sky and magic water fountains but no evidence or extra-biblical sightings/mentions??

Seriously the list goes on and on...Entire foundation of your religion has collapsed on itself as time goes on. If the Bible had been written by a supreme being, then it wouldn’t contain the mistakes and lies that it does.

Then there is evolution, which lands the final blow. "Christianity has fought, still fights and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, for evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of God. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing" - G R Bozarth

 

[Number37]

Why and how??

The 2 events are independent, just because event A happened before event B doesn't mean there is a relationship between the 2.

BECAUSE RELIGION THATS WHY!

No need to get narky!
The best explanation proferred by the know-it-alls is that God doesn't exist because science can explain everything to a comfortable satisfaction. Science can explain the whys and hows of many things it just can't explain why humans are profoundly influenced by religion. Calling religion stupid, fairy tale, myth does not explain why humans are so profoudly influenced by it.

 

[jinny1]

No need to get narky!
The best explanation proferred by the know-it-alls is that God doesn't exist because science can explain everything to a comfortable satisfaction. Science can explain the whys and hows of many things it just can't explain why humans are profoundly influenced by religion. Calling religion stupid, fairy tale, myth does not explain why humans are so profoudly influenced by it.

I'm profoundly influenced by unicorns, superheroes and spooky ghosts, does that mean they exist?

The fact that people are "profoundly influenced" only to their own special God should show you that religion is man-made. There's already many studies done in the field of psychology as to why people want to believe there is a God, more specifically, their own special God out of the tens of thousands out there.

 

[Number37]

What? How is what i said analogous to putting 20 people in a room and asking to make a wish? wtf.

Anyway, arguing how much we have disproved your religion is a massive problem for Christianity. Because if the Bible is truly the word of God then it shouldn't contain any of the mistakes, lies, inaccuracies and anachronisms that it does. Pretty much everything in the old testament has been refuted already by scholars, theologians and biblical archaeologists. I mean NONE of the major biblical figures in the OT are actually identified in any extra-biblical sources! This is incredible. You would've thought that King Solomon would've had regular correspondence with kings/queens from other countries?? Or that somebody would bother to write about Kings? Only minor figures mentioned in the bible like King Nebuchadnezzar are actual real historical people.

Not to mention Egypt is a focal point in the old testament with the Exodus of Moses and his people. Yet, there is not one single artefact that eludes to any of those stories. In the Cairo museum one can see thousands of artefacts from ancient Egyptian history going back 5000 years. Their language was sophisticated enough that we know what kind of crops they grew. Who their Gods were. Who their kings and queens were and even that they had cats and dogs as pets! Yet, during all these incredible happenings we read about in the bible, not one person took note. Not a single hierglyph, etching, picture or statue or anything that recorded any of those events. Now that's incredible. The only place you find anything about moses/people about it is in the bible, as if it was a legendary story passed down from generation to generation. The Bible describes 2.5 and 3 million in total left Egypt. So 3 million people travelling all over Africa for decades being fed by bread from the sky and magic water fountains but no evidence or extra-biblical sightings/mentions??

Seriously the list goes on and on...Entire foundation of your religion has collapsed on itself as time goes on. If the Bible had been written by a supreme being, then it wouldn’t contain the mistakes and lies that it does.

Then there is evolution, which lands the final blow. "Christianity has fought, still fights and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, for evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of God. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing" - G R Bozarth

Interestingly you refer to Christianity only.

I'm profoundly influenced by unicorns, superheroes and spooky ghosts, does that mean they exist?

The fact that people are "profoundly influenced" only to their own special God should show you that religion is man-made. There's already many studies done in the field of psychology as to why people want to believe there is a God, more specifically, their own special God out of the tens of thousands out there.

You missed the point, again.

 

[jinny1]

Interestingly you refer to Christianity only.



You missed the point, again.

How is it interesting? Did you expect me to investigate and talk about all the thousands of different religions and how historically inaccurate they are?? I'm just using Christianity as a prime example. Do you understand it now?? I didn't think I would need to explain this to you.

You don't seem to realise that being profoundly influenced by something has nothing at all do with with reality and facts. They are independent thing ax

 

[Boston tiger]

What? How is what i said analogous to putting 20 people in a room and asking to make a wish? wtf.

Anyway, arguing how much we have disproved your religion is a massive problem for Christianity. Because if the Bible is truly the word of God then it shouldn't contain any of the mistakes, lies, inaccuracies and anachronisms that it does. Pretty much everything in the old testament has been refuted already by scholars, theologians and biblical archaeologists. I mean NONE of the major biblical figures in the OT are actually identified in any extra-biblical sources! This is incredible. You would've thought that King Solomon would've had regular correspondence with kings/queens from other countries?? Or that somebody would bother to write about Kings? Only minor figures mentioned in the bible like King Nebuchadnezzar are actual real historical people.

Not to mention Egypt is a focal point in the old testament with the Exodus of Moses and his people. Yet, there is not one single artefact that eludes to any of those stories. In the Cairo museum one can see thousands of artefacts from ancient Egyptian history going back 5000 years. Their language was sophisticated enough that we know what kind of crops they grew. Who their Gods were. Who their kings and queens were and even that they had cats and dogs as pets! Yet, during all these incredible happenings we read about in the bible, not one person took note. Not a single hierglyph, etching, picture or statue or anything that recorded any of those events. Now that's incredible. The only place you find anything about moses/people about it is in the bible, as if it was a legendary story passed down from generation to generation. The Bible describes 2.5 and 3 million in total left Egypt. So 3 million people travelling all over Africa for decades being fed by bread from the sky and magic water fountains but no evidence or extra-biblical sightings/mentions??

Seriously the list goes on and on...Entire foundation of your religion has collapsed on itself as time goes on. If the Bible had been written by a supreme being, then it wouldn’t contain the mistakes and lies that it does.

Then there is evolution, which lands the final blow. "Christianity has fought, still fights and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, for evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of God. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing" - G R Bozarth

Maybe the Old Testament is alluding to Mitochondrial Eve and all the business that went on when she was about.

 

[Boston tiger]

My understanding of history of the Church is just as bad as your superficial understanding of Science and the first law of thermo.

IF it intrigued you so much, why didn't you at least study physics at university?? Instead of forever not knowing exactly what is meant by the 1st law and it's limitations.

Sorry but i'm just visiting here! You can easily research this on your own as long as it isn't from GodisReal.com or some crazy sites like that.

No worries. Best you not comment on Christianity and I won't comment on thermodynamics. Then we both won't look stupid.

 

[jinny1]

Maybe the Old Testament is alluding to Mitochondrial Eve and all the business that went on when she was about.

What? What do you mean mitochondrial eve? Maybe you are just desperately trying make random s**t up and bible is just simply a man made work with extremely outdated and incorrect historical and scientific claims.

 

[jinny1]

No worries. Best you not comment on Christianity and I won't comment on thermodynamics. Then we both won't look stupid.

At least I know a bit about both. You seem to have no idea about science.

I look stupid because I said that the church killed and punished people claiming things that they thought opposed the bible? It's true... But good to see you standing up for your religion, I'm sure you defend the child molesting priests as well

 

[Boston tiger]

At least I know a bit about both. You seem to have no idea about science.

I look stupid because I said that the church killed and punished people claiming things that they thought opposed the bible? It's true... But good to see you standing up for your religion, I'm sure you defend the child molesting priests as well

Look your best bet is to wait around for a good old born again Bible creationist. They pop up every now again.
Now I think you've spent enough time on the computer how about popping outside and having a play on the trampoline for awhile.

 

[jinny1]

Look your best bet is to wait around for a good old born again Bible creationist. They pop up every now again.
Now I think you've spent enough time on the computer how about popping outside and having a play on the trampoline for awhile.

Well i've already discussed at length previously the problems with theistic evolution and Christians trying to somehow make evolution fit in with their bible...And thus in the process make the basis of their religion meaningless. I've said it time and time again, evolution and the bible just is not compatible. You can try all you want to somehow connect each contradicting piece of evidence into the Bible, by making links that are just not there or non-nonsensical and claim the bible is just a metaphor. But in the process the very core fundamentals, the basis, the foundation of your belief just crumbles to ashes.

Actually i replied you before on my phone when i was outside....Now i have to study for a test inside.

 

[Boston tiger]

Well i've already discussed at length previously the problems with theistic evolution and Christians trying to somehow make evolution fit in with their bible...And thus in the process make the basis of their religion meaningless. I've said it time and time again, evolution and the bible just is not compatible. You can try all you want to somehow connect each contradicting piece of evidence into the Bible, by making links that are just not there or non-nonsensical and claim the bible is just a metaphor. But in the process the very core fundamentals, the basis, the foundation of your belief just crumbles to ashes.

Actually i replied you before on my phone when i was outside....Now i have to study for a test inside.

It's been done to death a bit but Christianity predates the Bible by 300 odd years. The Bible came from the Church. Because the Church decided what went in and what missed out also means they have control on interpretation of the texts. Genesis is to be interpreted not as a scientific explanation of how life stated. 7 days ?? Really. God could take no time so it's a very clunky story even for creationist. Anyway main stream Christian Churches are very comfortable with evolution and any other good solid scientific theories.

Christians that have the Bible as the sole authority and their Church been born from the Bible not vice versa... is where you'll find Christians not having a bar of evolution etc .

It's all about authority.