Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[fleabitten]

I did these so-called "hard yards" as a stay at home dad. I hate to break the news to you brother, it's a doddle, you've been had.

I would also say that the difficulty of staying at home with the kids and taking care of the house is exaggerated. Would take it over pretty much every other job I've ever had. Pay's no good, but if you're sharing income with a working spouse, then you've definitely got the better end of the bargain. And it's rewarding as a mother*er.

 

[cartwright]

I don't think you understand my situation. It wasn't a choice to take time off work to raise my kids. I quit my job and became a single parent because their mother didn't want to. Men have been doing that forever. I don't have feminism to thank for it, which was the point you (or one of you) was trying to make.

that's your situation. That is not all situations. There are couples who now choose to stay at home, and or work part time at different points in their careers. Some men now are taking a day off a week etc to spend more time with their children. Feminism, and equality has allowed it to become an option.

It is mate. Once these these so-called 'slaves' have got their kids off to day care or school their time is pretty much their own to have brunch with the girls or do a spot of shopping.

I went back to uni for something to do.

Oh, I'll let the mums know that. lol
Did your wife come home and sit on the couch, until bed time too?

 

[Contra Mundum]

I did these so-called "hard yards" as a stay at home dad. I hate to break the news to you brother, it's a doddle, you've been had.

I am only trying to be illustrative. My point is the assumption that women should do the post breast feeding care giving is the thing that *s women over in the workforce. It is hard if you trying to manage a job - the bar is OK because even if your in Court they ony sit from 10 to 4

 

[fleabitten]

that's your situation. That is not all situations. There are couples who now choose to stay at home, and or work part time at different points in their careers. Some men now are taking a day off a week etc to spend more time with their children. Feminism, and equality has allowed it to become an option.

Right, it's my situation. You're slowly getting it. So when you say I have feminism to thank, you're wrong. You weren't talking about "other couples".

 

[evo]

I am only trying to be illustrative. My point is the assumption that women should do the post breast feeding care giving is the thing that ****s women over in the workforce. It is hard if you trying to manage a job - the bar is OK because even if your in Court they ony sit from 10 to 4

Maybe you partner is different but most women don't really want careers mate. They just play at it til their 35 and it's a good way to meet a sucessful guy.

You have to stop listening to Andrea Dworkin in your humanities faculty and get back to hanging out with the Pre Socratics. It's a new century, stop apologising for being a European male, you don't hold the power any way; they do. Look how women have you beating their drum so furiously in this thread.

Would they do it for you?

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

I am only trying to be illustrative. My point is the assumption that women should do the post breast feeding care giving is the thing that ****s women over in the workforce. It is hard if you trying to manage a job - the bar is OK because even if your in Court they ony sit from 10 to 4

I certainly don't think that women should be the primary care giver, as in it shouldn't be considered mandatory (other than the breast feeding of course!), but is there an argument to suggest that the nurturing, caring, raising etc of children is more natural or innate in women than in men? It certainly seems that way, at least in my personal experience - a lot of women I know are said to be 'born to be mothers', but I haven't heard it often (probably ever) that someone was born to be a father. There is every chance that this is just the societal expectations lingering though.

My fiance and I are the same. We are at the stage now where kids are very near on the horizon and, despite the fact that she earns more than me, there is no way that I will be the primary care giver to allow her to continue with her career (from both sides, that is - I don't want it to sound like I am forcing her to stay home!).

 

[Contra Mundum]

I certainly don't think that women should be the primary care giver, as in it shouldn't be considered mandatory (other than the breast feeding of course!), but is there an argument to suggest that the nurturing, caring, raising etc of children is more natural or innate in women than in men? It certainly seems that way, at least in my personal experience - a lot of women I know are said to be 'born to be mothers', but I haven't heard it often (probably ever) that someone was born to be a father. There is every chance that this is just the societal expectations lingering though.

My fiance and I are the same. We are at the stage now where kids are very near on the horizon and, despite the fact that she earns more than me, there is no way that I will be the primary care giver to allow her to continue with her career (from both sides, that is - I don't want it to sound like I am forcing her to stay home!).

that is demonstrably false and proves my point. Common sense is not value neutral but smuggles ideology - in this case that "all woman are more nurturing than men" - anyway I am not feeding the despicable beast that is alive and well in this thread any longer

 

[kfc1]

that is demonstrably false and proves my point. Common sense is not value neutral but smuggles ideology - in this case that "all woman are more nurturing than men" - anyway I am not feeding the despicable beast that is alive and well in this thread any longer

"All women are more nurturing than men"
lol, u putting words in other peoples mouths again?

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

that is demonstrably false and proves my point. Common sense is not value neutral but smuggles ideology - in this case that "all woman are more nurturing than men" - anyway I am not feeding the despicable beast that is alive and well in this thread any longer

Fair enough, it's why I asked instead of stating as fact.

 

[evo]

My fiance and I are the same. We are at the stage now where kids are very near on the horizon and, despite the fact that she earns more than me, there is no way that I will be the primary care giver to allow her to continue with her career (from both sides, that is - I don't want it to sound like I am forcing her to stay home!).

Run the idea of you staying home by her. See if she really wants that career.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

Run the idea of you staying home by her. See if she really wants that career.

Think you were trying to quote me there.

I actually have run that by her (mainly tongue in cheek) and it's been made abundantly clear that that is not even close to being considered an option. She is one of those 'born to be mother' types that I mentioned earlier and it has been her dream since she was young to experience everything that comes with being a mother. Her career comes a massively distant second to motherhood.

That said, it is very much a mutual agreement for us - I am really not a baby person, and babies don't really like me (I'm 6'8'', so I think I scare them!), so it's best for all involved, including and especially the children, that she stay home and I continue to work.

 

[evo]

I actually have run that by her (mainly tongue in cheek) and it's been made abundantly clear that that is not even close to being considered an option.

colour me surprised.

 

[Maggie5]

It is mate. Once these these so-called 'slaves' have got their kids off to day care or school their time is pretty much their own to have brunch with the girls or do a spot of shopping.

I went back to uni for something to do.

Knew a family where dad wanted a big family, 6 children later and kids out of nappies, mum wants to go to night school, dad says you're kidding after working all day you expect me to watch the kids whilst you go to night school?

Can assure you she didn't have time to have brunch and go shopping with her friends.
Yep all's well, however the children did grow up and she did end up going to adult education despite the lack of support from her partner. Seems she was a very assertive woman, some may even call her a feminist.

So not all examples are the same.

 

[evo]

Knew a family where dad wanted a big family, 6 children later and kids out of nappies, mum wants to go to night school, dad says you're kidding after working all day you expect me to watch the kids whilst you go to night school?

Can assure you she didn't have time to have brunch and go shopping with her friends.
Yep all's well, however the children did grow up and she did end up going to adult education despite the lack of support from her partner. Seems she was a very assertive woman, some may even call her a feminist.

So not all examples are the same.

Maybe a first wave feminist. There's no way a third waver would've had 6 kids.

 

[Maggie5]

Maybe a first wave feminist. There's no way a third waver would've had 6 kids.

Have a similar story about a family with 3 kids.
Thank goodness for extended family but even they are becoming extinct.

 

[evo]

Have a similar story about a family with 3 kids.
Thank goodness for extended family but even they are becoming extinct.

the State is the extended family now. That was always the final goal.

Enjoy the brave new world.

 

[Maggie5]

the State is the extended family now. That was always the final goal.

Enjoy your brave new world.

Hopefully as the world changes I will, enjoy your stay at home life and continue to use your personal experience as the norm.

 

[romeohwho]

If a woman is keen to pursue a high-powered career, she doesn't have to have kids. How is it not necessarily her choice to stay at home? We're talking about educated, ambitious women here. How did they lose control of their own reproductive system?

Your assumption is that the decision to have children is the woman's, when it is in fact a shared decision. If the husband wants children then something has to be worked out one would assume. That is what happens in a mature and equitable partnership. You also seem to assume that the choice, in 2015, is children or a high powered career-this strikes me as rather limited in outlook.

 

[kfc1]

Hopefully as the world changes I will, enjoy your stay at home life and continue to use your personal experience as the norm.

Out of interest, were you a stay at home mum when raising your kids?

 

[Catfish Alley]

My wife stays at home with our kids. Hasn't worked for 3 years. Personally, I feel lucky we can swing it. No angst or sexism involved. We did what works for us. Everybody should be able to without judgement.

 

[cartwright]

Run the idea of you staying home by her. See if she really wants that career.

colour me surprised.

 

[romeohwho]

Maybe you partner is different but most women don't really want careers mate. They just play at it til their 35 and it's a good way to meet a sucessful guy.

You have to stop listening to Andrea Dworkin in your humanities faculty and get back to hanging out with the Pre Socratics. It's a new century, stop apologising for being a European male, you don't hold the power any way; they do. Look how women have you beating their drum so furiously in this thread.

Would they do it for you?

I dunno, do you know any men who don't want a career? Who just go to work to meet a successful woman?
Seriously?

 

[fleabitten]

Your assumption is that the decision to have children is the woman's, when it is in fact a shared decision. If the husband wants children then something has to be worked out one would assume. That is what happens in a mature and equitable partnership. You also seem to assume that the choice, in 2015, is children or a high powered career-this strikes me as rather limited in outlook.

It's a shared decision with a person that they've made a previous decision to spend their life with. If there's any pressure from that person to have children and sacrifice career against her own wishes, she also has the choice to leave the relationship. I don't think we're generally dealing with people who were pressured into quitting work and having babies against their will.

I don't know why you feel you have to tell me what a mature and equitable relationship looks like. You're pretty much the only feminist in this thread that makes an effort to understand opposing viewpoints, so I hope you're not assuming anything about my personal relationships just because I disagree with you on some things. My current marriage is perfectly equitable. It's not all that mature, but my wife and I like to be silly, so what are you gonna do.

 

[romeohwho]

It's a shared decision with a person that they've made a previous decision to spend their life with. If there's any pressure from that person to have children and sacrifice career against her own wishes, she also has the choice to leave the relationship. I don't think we're generally dealing with people who were pressured into quitting work and having babies against their will.

I don't know why you feel you have to tell me what a mature and equitable relationship looks like. You're pretty much the only feminist in this thread that makes an effort to understand opposing viewpoints, so I hope you're not assuming anything about my personal relationships just because I disagree with you on some things. My current marriage is perfectly equitable. It's not all that mature, but my wife and I like to be silly, so what are you gonna do.

Nope wasn't making any personal comment on your life-just suggesting that the nature of any reasonable relationship surely operates on compromise and that extends from who is cooking tonight, to where to go for xmas dinner, to the key issues of children/work-if, how many, when, how to manage it financially and socially etc., who stays home, when to return to work... And its a mutual decision whereby both parties find an acceptable outcome.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

that is demonstrably false and proves my point. Common sense is not value neutral but smuggles ideology - in this case that "all woman are more nurturing than men" - anyway I am not feeding the despicable beast that is alive and well in this thread any longer

No response to the multiple children comment?