Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[cartwright]

Okay. Just nothing that's been mentioned so far in the thread then, I guess.

Ad campaigns to ban the word bossy. Manipulation of statistics to exaggerate the pay gap. Mainstream media outlets portraying masculinity as toxic. Constant freakouts over non-issues on social media. The treatment of women who reject modern feminism (including 1st and 2nd wave feminists who do so). Not even having the founder of feminism's most well known magazine present a feminist award to a fictional, porcine domestic abuser. None of these have been enough to get a reasonable on-topic response from most of you.

Are these feminist myths?
Are assertive women, labelled bossy? Are assertive men labelled the same?
Pay gap? I've presented ABS data, twice. You guys ignored it.
There is no mainstream media portraying masculinity as toxic.
Without feminism, there would be no modern feminism. IF people think feminism, or an ism, doesn't change over years, they're idiots, what can I say?
There's a magazine? Seems you anti feminists really do dedicate hours to this stuff.

 

[kfc1]

What happens when you change men and women to jews and aryans?

 

[cartwright]

Oh good, he's gone to full idiot mode again. waiting for the endless images.

 

[Chief]

What happens when you change men and women to jews and aryans?

Go away, hacky troll.

 

[Chief]

Oh good, he's gone to full idiot mode again. waiting for the endless images.

Nah, thread banned.

 

[fleabitten]

Are these feminist myths?
Are assertive women, labelled bossy? Are assertive men labelled the same?

In my experience, bosses and elected leaders don't get called bossy, male or female. Bossy is when someone loves to tell other people what to do when they don't have the authority to do so. It applies to both males and females. And in any case, if someone abandons their dreams because someone called them bossy, then they weren't meant to be a leader anyway. Ridiculous campaign and the people involved lost my respect entirely.

Pay gap? I've presented ABS data, twice. You guys ignored it.

If you presented data that shows that women really do earn 77 cents to a man's dollar for the same work, I missed it.

There is no mainstream media portraying masculinity as toxic.

The HuffPost and Salon use the phrase "toxic masculinity" with regularity. A lot of these articles get shared around social media with approval.

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/24/stu...ss_ways_when_their_masculinity_is_threatened/

"There’s this thing feminists have been saying about masculinity for a while: It’s socially constructed, and it tends to be bad."

Without feminism, there would be no modern feminism. IF people think feminism, or an ism, doesn't change over years, they're idiots, what can I say?

Who's denying it's changing or that there had to be feminism before there could be modern feminism? Of course it's evolving and that's what most of my posts have been about. I don't think you'll find anything misogynist that I've said in this thread. I don't I've ever said there was never a need for feminism or that there isn't a need for it in some form today. I just see friends and friends of friends sharing ridiculous things online and instead of arguing with them about it every time, I prefer to talk about it here instead. Mainstream feminism is often poorly informed, biased against men or sometimes just plain ridiculous. A lot of good people call themselves feminists and pass the misinformation around to each other with no-one daring to question anything. I don't want to be fighting with them all the time, so I just come in here and let strangers think less of me instead. I only get into it with them if it's something I find particularly wrong or harmful.

 

[cartwright]

In my experience, bosses and elected leaders don't get called bossy, male or female. Bossy is when someone loves to tell other people what to do when they don't have the authority to do so. It applies to both males and females. And in any case, if someone abandons their dreams because someone called them bossy, then they weren't meant to be a leader anyway. Ridiculous campaign and the people involved lost my respect entirely.

I wouldn't know who was involved. I don't know how it started. I will say, I have seen men/women carry out similiar acts in the office, and it appears that women are viewed more harshly when they are aggressive (ie yelling at colleagues).

If you presented data that shows that women really do earn 77 cents to a man's dollar for the same work, I missed it.

there was data from ABS, across industry.

The HuffPost and Salon use the phrase "toxic masculinity" with regularity. A lot of these articles get shared around social media with approval.

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/24/stu...ss_ways_when_their_masculinity_is_threatened/

"There’s this thing feminists have been saying about masculinity for a while: It’s socially constructed, and it tends to be bad."

There are discussions all the time around masculinity/femininity. Positive and negative. I don't read these articles... I have nothing to add, whether they be positive about femininity/masculinity or negative.

Who's denying it's changing or that there had to be feminism before there could be modern feminism? Of course it's evolving and that's what most of my posts have been about. I don't think you'll find anything misogynist that I've said in this thread. I don't I've ever said there was never a need for feminism or that there isn't a need for it in some form today. I just see friends and friends of friends sharing ridiculous things online and instead of arguing with them about it every time, I prefer to talk about it here instead. Mainstream feminism is often poorly informed, biased against men or sometimes just plain ridiculous. A lot of good people call themselves feminists and pass the misinformation around to each other with no-one daring to question anything. I don't want to be fighting with them all the time, so I just come in here and let strangers think less of me instead. I only get into it with them if it's something I find particularly wrong or harmful.

I still identify feminism = equality. Even though people try to make it change the definition of what it means.

Mainstream feminism, or modern feminism?. I don't subscribe to extremism in anything..... I don't have any bias against men... so.. if you wonder why I don't bother discussing these fringe/extreme elements of feminism, its because I don't think its worthwhile to discuss petty things like posters in university's, or an award to a centre that I have never heard of... but yes, as Kynge stated... the idea that a paper named an animal "sportswoman of the year" ... a little more annoying... (i.e issues that are right here, in this country).

 

[fleabitten]

American Pharaoh could well be the 2015 Sportsman of the Year.

http://www.nbcsports.com/horse-racing/case-american-pharoah-sportsman-year
http://www.si.com/horse-racing/video/2015/07/23/american-pharoah-contender-sportsman-year

Can't wait for the outrage.

 

[Maggie5]

American Pharaoh could well be the 2015 Sportsman of the Year.

http://www.nbcsports.com/horse-racing/case-american-pharoah-sportsman-year
http://www.si.com/horse-racing/video/2015/07/23/american-pharoah-contender-sportsman-year

Can't wait for the outrage.

Whose on the judging panel? Daily Telegraph?

 

[romeohwho]

American Pharaoh could well be the 2015 Sportsman of the Year.

http://www.nbcsports.com/horse-racing/case-american-pharoah-sportsman-year
http://www.si.com/horse-racing/video/2015/07/23/american-pharoah-contender-sportsman-year

Can't wait for the outrage.

Are you kidding-brillliant, what a horse, what an achievement. Well earned if he gets it.

 

[La Dolce Vita]

Go away, hacky troll.

why because he perfectly illustrates feminist hypocrisy.

Just change the word man and feminist bigotry and hatred can't be denied except for the brain dead disciples

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

why because he perfectly illustrates feminist hypocrisy.

Just change the word man and feminist bigotry and hatred can't be denied except for the brain dead disciples

That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Okay. Just nothing that's been mentioned so far in the thread then, I guess.

Ad campaigns to ban the word bossy. Manipulation of statistics to exaggerate the pay gap. Mainstream media outlets portraying masculinity as toxic. Constant freakouts over non-issues on social media. The treatment of women who reject modern feminism (including 1st and 2nd wave feminists who do so). Not even having the founder of feminism's most well known magazine present a feminist award to a fictional, porcine domestic abuser. None of these have been enough to get a reasonable on-topic response from most of you.

Who is trying to ban the word 'bossy'?
Which mainstream media is portraying masculinity as toxic?
Which treatment of women are you referring to?
And, yes, giving a feminist award to Miss Piggy is stupid on so many levels.

Still waiting...

 

[La Dolce Vita]

That makes absolutely no sense.

the IQ's of feminists is no doubt quite low

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

the IQ's of feminists is no doubt quite low

Just change the word man and feminist bigotry and hatred can't be denied except for the brain dead disciples
Read it out loud, or maybe get someone else to read it for you.

 

[fleabitten]

Still waiting...

Oh, you were serious. I'm not going back through the thread and repeating the same stuff again just to most likely get the same reaction.

The only interesting thing about your post that I'll bother to reply to was that you admit that the Miss Piggy thing is stupid on multiple levels. So, doesn't it tell you something that Gloria Steinem presented it and that many social media feminists not only applauded it, but have also started bitching about Kermit's new girlfriend being younger and thinner? Can't you see how that reflects on feminism and gives people a reason to want to distance themselves from it? It's not just one thing, this kind of stuff happens all the time and it's the main context in which many people are regularly exposed to feminist messages. As a movement, it seems to have jumped the shark in many respects. The remaining legitimate issues that some women face can still be addressed as a matter human rights, just like any other demographic, and aren't necessarily being helped by the current wave of feminism.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

You want an on topic response from me, I seek more information which you won't supply and then refer to the 'only interesting thing' that you'll 'bother to reply to'. Yeah, you're after genuine debate . We're done here.

 

[fleabitten]

You want an on topic response from me, I seek more information which you won't supply and then refer to the 'only interesting thing' that you'll 'bother to reply to'. Yeah, you're after genuine debate . We're done here.

I'm not talking about any new information, I'm talking about stuff already discussed in this thread that you've mostly just dodged. Now you want me to go back and summarize it all for you so you can dodge it again. Or maybe you'll admit that some things are ****ed up but be unwilling to look any more deeply into why or how they're ****ed up.

 

[Gough]

Anyone wanna speak up for the single Muslim men being ignored by humanitarian intakes from Syria? Thought you guys would be bang on to this.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Anyone want to talk about PWC coming out and acknowledging that there is a gender pay gap in the company, at the non partner level, of two percent, for identical jobs?

If this is occurring at a company that is committed to removing gender pay gaps, no surprises that it is a larger problem in the broader community.

Good on them though for publishing the information and acknowledging that it is 'not good enough'.

 

[Maggie5]

Anyone wanna speak up for the single Muslim men being ignored by humanitarian intakes from Syria? Thought you guys would be bang on to this.

Wrong religion and they have been in the sun too long.

 

[fleabitten]

Wrong religion and they have been in the sun too long.

???

Another couple of garbage posts. So Gough brings up a case of possible discrimination against males and asks why we're not talking about it yet and straight away, before anyone else can respond, you claim that it's because of racism. Because of course if a person criticizes feminism, they must be all different kinds of bigot.

As for the question of the single men being ignored, I hadn't heard anything like that. If true, I think that's wrong if it's being applied in a blanket fashion. It should be based on who is most at risk and I'm sure some single men are at more risk than some single women. I'm sure it's difficult to assess things on a case by case basis in the middle of a crisis, so if they're working from some basic assumptions about who is most vulnerable, that would be understandable.

 

[fleabitten]

Anyone want to talk about PWC coming out and acknowledging that there is a gender pay gap in the company, at the non partner level, of two percent, for identical jobs?

If this is occurring at a company that is committed to removing gender pay gaps, no surprises that it is a larger problem in the broader community.

Good on them though for publishing the information and acknowledging that it is 'not good enough'.

2% is nowhere near the figures that are constantly thrown around. The argument about the pay gap was mostly about the misleading numbers. It's not 77 cents on the dollar for the same job.

I'd be interested to know what they mean by identical job. Does that mean the people holding the positions have the exact same qualifications and experience or are we just talking about the job title?

 

[Maggie5]

???

Another couple of garbage posts. So Gough brings up a case of possible discrimination against males and asks why we're not talking about it yet and straight away, before anyone else can respond, you claim that it's because of racism. Because of course if a person criticizes feminism, they must be all different kinds of bigot.

As for the question of the single men being ignored, I hadn't heard anything like that. If true, I think that's wrong if it's being applied in a blanket fashion. It should be based on who is most at risk and I'm sure some single men are at more risk than some single women. I'm sure it's difficult to assess things on a case by case basis in the middle of a crisis, so if they're working from some basic assumptions about who is most vulnerable, that would be understandable.

Nah, first part you got it all wrong but nevertheless didn't mind your second paragraph.
Very complex issue but I genuinely believe and have stated in another thread, should be based on need and most vulnerable.
Huge problem at the moment and has been building for some time.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

2% is nowhere near the figures that are constantly thrown around. The argument about the pay gap was mostly about the misleading numbers. It's not 77 cents on the dollar for the same job.

I'd be interested to know what they mean by identical job. Does that mean the people holding the positions have the exact same qualifications and experience or are we just talking about the job title?

The 2 per cent figure is at a company *actively* trying to eliminate the gender pay gap FFS is it that hard to understand?