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Israel, Palestine, and everything related
- Thread starter Smiling Buddha
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What the heck is that?
Which country exactly were America stealing land from? (Other than the natives)
I agree. It's complex. But alot of the people are Arab migrants from the 1920's. People from surrounding settled in Palestine because of economic reasons.
Sorry, you have a number of times I name called. Calling me slow or psycho is abusive. Please show some respect even if you disagree.
thats one of the zionist myths actually.
i think pre-Herzl's settlement, there was 600+ arabim and in the vicinity of 30-50 k mizrahim, with change sepphardim, plus no more than a handful ashkenazism. the clock wont be turned back. israel is in the makings of a phenomenal nation, and i say this as a gentile, it just has to reject its bellicose geopolitical stance and join the league of nations, and not sit outside it. merely by the IQ and dna in the state, and the wealth of IP, why waste time over land when they can build something far greater than blood and soil.
strauchnyy dont forget Ben Gurion, Menachim Begin, Yitzak Shamir, all terrorists, and all were prime minister. And Rahm Emanuel's old man was Lehi/Stern Gang, and Bibi's old man was Irgun.
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Siegman is one with coherent viewpoint. And he was the head of the US Rabbi's Association, one of the three leading Jewish organisations in the US. Cant call him an anti-semite. He and his family fled the SS when they were in Antwerp.
Apple. Tree. Didn't fall far.
did not play cricket. not a genius.
@ michael klinger @ julian wiener great cricketers.
no KP genius tho
he thought it was 1944
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Its effectively the creation of the US. They pretty much annexed a bunch of their western states after instigating, and subsequently winning, a war with Mexico.
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I don't see how that is relevant to Palestine/Israel at all. Sorry, try again.
just the goy talking points for the silent goy
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You asked for an example of gradual territorial expansion by a nation (similar to Israel/Palestine) and I provided it, so what are you complaining about? Palestine/Israel is absolutely no different to any other historical conflict over territory, I don't understand why the region has a disproportionate focus on it when nations like the US and Russia did the exact same thing less than two centuries ago.
Lester Burnham
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Admirable sentiments GS. Realistically a two state state would precede such a one state solution.
But the evidence seems to be that Israel, with the tacit approval of the USA supports a Greater Israel by incremental expansion and expulsion of Palestinians from areas like the Jordan Valley.
I reiterate that my belief is that solution to the problem lies in the US. They control the purse strings.
This is sort of different. This is invasion and expansion on grounds of the right of return , where there is no right to return and then make a new country out of someone else's place.
American Jews migrating and taking up occupied land that doesn't belong to them is an absolute broken law of decency.
I heard today an Israeli on radio 6pr saying the same old crap about warning Palestinians when they were about to bombed, why warn if they think they are hitting an Hamas hide out, why warn when sometimes as has been seen, the bombs land before the victims get out.
Why return 1000 rocket attacks that barely hurt anyone, with massive bombing runs, tanks and thousands of soldiers.
And what about the gas on the shores close to Gaza.
What is that all about.
Being an armchair expert I don't know. But is this destruction of Gaza about mining off shore gas ???????? I don't know.
I do know that Israel and Zionism is breaking the rules of fairness and decency and is behaving like nationalistic dictators, using bullshit as an excuse to destroy a people.
I am an Australian of five generations , I am not Jewish or Arabic I am an Anglican by birth but am not a practising church goer. Israel and Palestine does not effect me in terms of my life style or how I live or really anything , so I consider myself pretty neutral when reading watching , hearing people discuss this Israel /Palestine thing. And I believe as an outside observer, that something dreadfully wrong has happened in that place , and some people have been persecuted and ruined by a group, called Zionism, to gain control of that space for more than just the "god gave this land to me" line... there has to be more to the destruction of a people with the help of powerful western nations , than just the right of return.
Any blind man can see the unfairness of this , especially the unfairness of populating occupied areas captured after a war that was pre empted by Israel ,
in 1967, and Israel has from what I see just kept taking more and more Palestinian land , and does Israel have some god given right to the Golan Heights.
Tell me I'd be very interested. Of course Israel is frightened of her neighbours, got any idea why? Well invasion and butchery might be one reason.
Palestine a nation with a religious free law and autonomy for a section of Palestine called Israel. That is what the right thing would be.
But we humans don't practice right , do we?
Actually it was the Spaniards (eventually Mexicans) and the Americans fighting over land they stole from the natives of the Americas.
They didn't declare a right of return , they'd never been there before. That's different . Its pretty logical actually when you take what isn't yours your a thief.
Any invader is , but Israel bullshited about why they had to have a homeland, and then they stole one. And it goes on.
Don't forget the French. The Louisiana Purchase was negotiated with them. The U.S also purchased Alaska from the Russians in 1867.
Theseventhhamster
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"everyone else killed people for their land a couple hundred years ago so we are allowed to do the same now"
To answer your question:
- "why warn" - Because they have unprecedented warning procedures to minimise civilian casualties. No other nation in the world lives in constant fear of islamic terrorist attacks on a daily basis, yet they still do their best to avoid civilians, despite Hamas INTENTIONALLY hiding weapons and themselves in civilian areas to make it as difficult as possible for Israel. They know Israel are trying to avoid civilian deaths so they use this as a disgusting sick advantage. They have a f*cking manual on how to be human shields for christ sake (see below). This is unlike the Palestinians/Hamas who intentionally try to kill as many non-muslims as possible.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/07/conclusive-proof-that-hamas-uses-palestinians-as-human-shields/
"titled “Urban Warfare,” and it was produced by Hamas’s Shuja’iya Brigade.The manual includes detailed instructions on how to use the civilians of Gaza against Israel. It explains how because of Israel’s concern about civilian casualties, Hamas can use the “presence of civilians” to its military advantage. Having civilians nearby causes the Israelis “(1) Problems with opening fire; (2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward; (3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it.”
I'm a fourth generation aussie, and I have Jewish and muslim mates. the conflict in the middle east (or any other conflict) does not effect me either. But what shits me is ISIS, Boko Haram, Hamas and the like. They are the root causes of evil on this planet. With reference to the middle east, obviously there are problems on Israel's side, they need to refrain from settlement expansion in the west bank for example. BUT the first step in any scenario for peace is the extermination of Hamas. They are pure filth and terrible for the Palestinian people. There will never be peace for a 2 state solution with them (or equivelent terrorist organisation) running the show. You cannot negotiate, or live side by side with a group whose sole purpose in life is to kill you. period.
It's like trying to negotiate with IS beheading nutjobs on your doorstep. They have a totalitarian approach to everything and cannot be reasoned with.
Palestine a nation with free law? LOL
The problem with your wise solution is that Hamas don't want to live with Israel/or Israelis, they want to kill them. This is the stumbling block in the road to a 2 state solution.
You say free law.. well here are a few snipets from their peaceful loving charter:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
“The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”
“Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.”
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/22/9...amas-straight-from-its-charter/#ixzz3D3PAqzpZ
Oh and they persecute their own people, execute without trial etc.. Bu you think they are different to ISIS?
Palestinians have more rights in Israel than they do under Hamas.
You have all the answers in your argument don't you. The one thing you can never answer is why do you think there isHamas , in the first place. You'll have something to say of course. You can create statements from the Koran or the bible or whatever , thats religious idiocy , from way in the past. So I simply say no that argument.
This argument is about people being displaced by force not in one war but over 70 or 80 years. This is about expansion , allowing Jews from any where to settle in Israel as god told them they could , the ISRAELI EXCUSE SYSTEM FOR INVASION AND SLAUGHTER.
What it means is occupied territory can be taken up as long as your an Israeli not a Palestinian, yes go on, tell me all people in the region can live where they like. For heavens sake , rubbish.Tell me that Israel is such a free place whjere the governments made up of every type there possibly can be.
Doesn't change the fact that that place was stolen by Zionists for lots of reasons and helped along by outsiders, its just a fact.
Forget religious arguments, forget about Hamas and its doctrine on Israel and Islam , I don't give a s**t, they are down trodden and if Indonesia invaded my state and pushed me into the desert to live in a small space like a piece of crap , I'D WANT TO DESTROY THEM AS WELL, But that's emotive rhetoric which comes from Hamas, in the past . They actually won an election their so the soft line people must have had some faith in them as the only ones who'd keep trying to save Palestine, it would have happened but Israel are too militarilly powerful, Hamas and its tactics was their only weapon like Arafat. But what else would they do, having their land stolen off them , its easy for me to argue my point Israel is wrong legally and morally and lots of Jews think so too.
ISIS is a bloody horror , criminals and murderers , Hamas is a entity that hates Israel yes , but if there was no Israel there'd be no Hamas, no need for the PLO or the West Bank mob who try to negotiate. Israels invasion of Palestine created Hamas.
If there was no Hitler there'd be no need for the different nations of underground operatives that committed terrorist acts against the Nazis. The creation of Israel was simply done wrong, it had to be because the evidence stares you in the face , yes even you, we have hatred and killing and bombing and rocket firing , and even another fighting group , Hezbollah that takes on Israel or will , these things exist because of Israel. And the way the Jewish issue was settled after the WAR and you know Zionism was around a long time before the final solution in Germany , there was always this thing about going back or right to return , before that whacko Hitler and his killers decided to wipe them out.
So the Israel problem , which should never have been a problem , if people in Europe and else where didn't have stupid misled bullshit ideas about Jews,
then maybe they could have done this all differently, but no Zion wants revenge as well.So the Israel problem always had plenty of time for other world governments to sort this out , it would have been better to not have killing bombing terrorism and all the stupid murderous crap, that Israel has created.
By existing , where it hadn't for nearly 2000 years. Simple isn't .My opinion that is , if no one at all ever died , that would have been better, but even early Zionists were terrorists, you know that too. Well thats my answer to your answer , which wasn't an answer just the same words about rocket attacks from Hamas so Israel doesn't fire a rocket, IT KILLS THAT ANT WITH A GIANT SLEDGE HAMMER. See thats how I and lots of others see this.
A conflict created by people who thought it was a good idea, but it will probably end up starting the third world war. STUPIDITY. ANY HOW HOPE THE HAWKS CAN WIN B to B.
Once again your right about ISIS and Hamas ' Islamic ideals and Muslim against Jew. That is almost a different story. Israel is all wrong . They could have peace, in fact I'd say even Hamas might change their thinking to end this as long as Palestine get some fair deal. Israel and its military power are the only ones that can do it. Expansion in the Occupied territories is outrageous, these are not just religious Jews these are wealthy American New Yorkers I bet, as well.
I knew a wealthy Australian born here , who "went back" when his sons grew to adults, he ran a business here I worked for that business, packed up his family and his money and belongings and "went home" I don't believe he went home at all, but that's me, he just added to the thievery of Palestinian land.
When you say about what I said, that Palestine and inside it an autonomous Israeli region being impossible, you may be right , but you know right now Israel is impossible, in the fact that, as you said , daily it faces terrorist threats in all manner.
Well all I'm saying is for people to think to themselves , I wonder why?
ISIS is a bleeding disease that will be pulled up, Hamas is a manufactured grouping of people who want their land back unfortunately they also have radicals inside it.
They murder 3 young Jews , some Jews murder a young Palestinian, numbers don't matter, the fact it happened at all is what matters. And it can be blamed right at the beginning, the invasion and destruction of Palestine , leaving millions homeless or living in a slum in Gaza. 60 or 70 years of torment.
Well lets have a look bro.. the Palestinians have always turned to violence instead of negotiation thoughout history. They could have accepted a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state in 1948, but instead, they chose to declare war on the Israeli state the day after it declared independence.
Quotes from the koran/bible? lol wut?
You clearly have no clue.
Majority of Israel is secular (much like Aus). No doubt there are a few religious nutters that use the 'god' excuse to call it there's (the extreme right wing) but the rest have grown up there (with their grandparents moving there after WWII). 30% of Israel is non-jewish, and can do as they please. The last ms Israel was muslim! Could you imagine if a jew walked down the street in gaza? would probably get tied to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets (which has happened before).
Jews do not have a 'system for invasion and slaughter', what the f*ck is wrong with you? Again, 30% of the population is non-jewish, and if Israel actually were hell-bent on your deranged idea of invasion and slaughter, there wouldnt be any Palestinians. Israel have the capability to turn gaza and west bank into a car park if they wanted. Sadly for ignorant bigots like you, they just want to live in peace without getting subject to almost daily terrorist attacks.
Lastly, you keep ignoring that it was the Arabs that kept attacking Israel in the wars and kept losing. Israel have shown that they are willing to give land for peace (EG, to Egypt, and they even gave back Gaza - in return they got rockets). The next hole in your story is that you keep assuming Hamas/Palestinians just want land back... laughable. Read their charter.
I don't give a f*ck about religious arguments. Only Hamas gives a f*ck about religious arguments.
Israel are not invading anyone. They gave gaza too the Palestinians. This doesn't support your 'invasion' rhetoric. Israel supplies gaza with food, electricity and even cement which is used for terror tunnels. Give me 1 other example on Earth where one nation hand feeds the other in return for daily radicalised jihad?
If the roles were reversed and the Palestinians had the weapons, what do you think they would do? think about it.
You love the word invasion. So basically when the UN gave the jewish people land, you call that invasion? when neighbouring arab nations declared war and invaded Israel, it was actually Israel invading them?
I disagree with settlement expansion in the west bank, so maybe you could call that a form of invasion... but they way you describe it is just factually WRONG.
I think the part that wasn't handled right was the Arabs who refused to accept a 2 state solution in 1948. Before that is was British. They were being given a state for themselves, alongside the jewish survivors. They chose violence, death and terrorism.
You say peace is dependent on Israel's actions. The truth is actually a flip of 180 degrees. It is ENTIRELY dependent on Hamas and the Palestinians. Hamas don't recognise Israel's rights to exist. Every single problem starts at this point. How can there be any solution if one side does not recognise the other's right to exist.
I met an Israeli last night, we inevitably got stuck into the mid/east conflict, and I asked him - why don't you just go in there and go after every single hamas terrorist and topple their whole regime? I was slightly surprised with his answer.. he looked at me, and said - because that would cost Israel over 500 lives, and we value the lives of those 18-21 year olds too much to go into war with the terrorists'. On the other side, you have palestinians naming streets after suicide bombers, kids shows with kids characters demonizing jews and instructing them to be martyrs... That is the difference in their mentality.
It all goes back to Hamas/Pals want Israelis dead, Israelis want to live.
I believe in a 2 state solution, and majority of Israelis do too. Its just that the palestinians don't. That is the problem.
