Israel, Palestine, and everything related

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

 

[strauchnyy]

Did I ever say that the rounding up of Palestinians in order to gas them was the reason for the similarities between Israel and the Nazis? Nice straw man and lie.

You likened Israel to Nazi Germany. They are completly different have no right to be compared to one another. I may as well compare Aussie soldiers to that of the Nazis because iraqui civilians died from aussie weapons. Do you get it now?

If the alert systems of Israel were so good then they would eliminate and prevent much of the troubles their forces have caused.

Because it is impossible to prevent civilian casualties when Hamas are firing or storing rockets 15m away from said civilians, on purpose. Hamas choose this tactic, this makes Hamas just as responsible. (see my use of the words 'just as').

I don't discount the terrible things that Hamas have done, however it is clear that there is one party who was and is clearly exacerbating situations through their own actions and then trying to blame others for it and as if they are the bad guys. And guess what they are not Israeli.

This is the first time you have budged on your support/(or acknowledgment for what they are) for Hamas. Well done.

I argue that the side exacerbating situations is the side that is calling for the death of jews, calling for its people to be 'martyrs' to kill jews, celebrating murder and intentionally trying to kill as many innocent people as possible. 'Guess what champ, they are not Israeli.'

Step 1 to any peaceful solution is the recognition of Israel and denouncing its overall goal, that is to exterminate the Israelis/Jews. You can't make peace with a side that's sole objective is to kill you. I'm not saying everything Israel do is perfect, but it is clearly evident that Hamas are the ones exacerbating situations.

Good to see that you are quick to try and turn the table back onto what Hamas is doing as if they are the bad ones and Israel is not innocent.

Who Hamas? the ones who call for the death of all Israelis, who are deemed terrorists, who glorify terrorism, who brainwash children to hate Jews, Israel and the west, who kidnap, stab and shoot rockets at civilians, who celebrate and call acts of barbarism 'heroic', who refuse to stop until they wipe Israel off the map and turn Israel into a Muslim nation run on religious law (like ISIS), who publicly execute their own people for protesting against them, who hold their own civilians as hostages, who kill all who oppose them (go read what they did to Fatah during the elections)?

Yeah those guys are totes the goodies. They are just as bad for their own people.

You do realise that your doing the exact same thing right? That you keep turning the table back on Israel that they are the bad ones.. How ironic. Your argument against me is just as valid against yourself.

Hey you can stay on your high horse about Israel's moral superiority all you like and your own too for that fact when it is clear you are a bigot and absolutely interested only in blaming hamas.

You are either ignoring parts of my posts or just don't understand. I have noted Israel make errors, I have constantly spoken out against Israeli settlement expansion, yet you accuse me of only blaming Hamas? I am not being one eyed (unlike you) Try again.

 

[Slax]

Once again Israel has proved itself to be a terrorist state. How can a country that lays claim to being westernised and believing in democracy see fit that it is a fair punishment to destroy homes of accused terrorists making their families homeless. One terrorist act does not justify another and only proves that you are no better than them. But yet we as a country defend Israel's ability to act in a terrorist manner.

 

[The Edukator]

Once again Israel has proved itself to be a terrorist state. How can a country that lays claim to being westernised and believing in democracy see fit that it is a fair punishment to destroy homes of accused terrorists making their families homeless. One terrorist act does not justify another and only proves that you are no better than them. But yet we as a country defend Israel's ability to act in a terrorist manner.

its a pretty strong deterrent. no life is worth less than the house of a terrorist and their family should openly be discouraging acts of terrorism full knowing that not only are they going to lose their house should they be found out but more importantly they are taking the lives of innocents.

you know what though, maybe these terrorists and their families value the murder of jews/Israelis/western cultures above their own home though. shame.

 

[Slax]

its a pretty strong deterrent. no life is worth less than the house of a terrorist and their family should openly be discouraging acts of terrorism full knowing that not only are they going to lose their house should they be found out but more importantly they are taking the lives of innocents.

you know what though, maybe these terrorists and their families value the murder of jews/Israelis/western cultures above their own home though. shame.

So why doesn't the Israeli government destroy the homes of settlers who kill Palestinians?

This stance is purely politicial and it is government sponsored terrorism, nothing less. If Israel was truely run by a law that treated people equally then they would of destroyed homes of settlers who have killed Palestinians, but they haven't because there would be political backlash at the polls.

When I see Israel treat the actions of settlers in the same manner as they treat Palestinians I will gladly admit I was wrong, but whilst the far right holds sway in Israel that day will never come and Israel will remain a terrorist where your religious beliefs allows you to be treated differently by the law.

 

[little graham]

http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/videos...content-deemed-anti-israel-on-facebook-video/

The growing criticism of the Israeli government is the result of a long campaign of ethnic cleansing wherein land is taken away from Palestinians to build “Jews only” homes. When a country announces that it will be a sectarian state based on the religious values of one religion – history shows that does not end well. The new “anti-terror bill,” proposed by Prime Minister Benjamin Neyanyahu last Sunday, would do the following if passed according to Ynet – one of Israel’s largest news sources:

• Anyone deemed to be a “terrorist” will be stripped of their citizenship and deported, including family members of those terrorists who claim support for them.
• Anyone displaying the Palestinian flag or other flags deemed “terroristic” will be arrested and held without bail until trial.
• If convicted of “terrorism” or “supporting terrorism” you will be denied national insurance benefits and lose your driver’s license for 10 years.
• The homes of accused terrorists’ families will be demolished within 24 hours of the terrorist act.
• Bodies of terrorists will not be delivered to their families, and will be buried in secret, without funeral rites.
• Businesses that print anything supportive of “terrorism” will be immediately shut down.
• Businesses can request a file on an employee and fire them for actions committed, even previous to their employment, that are deemed to be in support of “terrorism.”

 

[Lester Burnham]

Surely everyone on the board would condemn this attack on a Hand in Hand school.

JERUSALEM — Suspected Jewish extremists set fire to a classroom in an Arab-Jewish school in Jerusalem, police said on Sunday, targeting a symbol of co-existence in a city on edge over a recent surge in violence. The premises were empty late on Saturday when assailants torched a classroom used by first-graders at the Hand in Hand school, where Palestinian and Israeli children study together in Hebrew and Arabic. "Death to Arabs" had been scrawled on a schoolyard wall.​

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mi...nd-hand-torched-apparent-arson-attack-n258361

Hand in Hand brings together thousands of Jews and Arabs in five schools and communities throughout Israel. In Jerusalem. In the Galilee. In Wadi Ara. In Jaffa. In Haifa. We are proving on a daily basis the viability of inclusion and equality for citizens of Israel.

Current events threaten to pull Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel apart. Fear, anger and violence are undermining shared living. But this is not the case at Hand in Hand. Our preschools, summer programs and community activity continue unabated in our five schools and communities. As we begin the 2014-15 school year, and as our network of bilingual schools and communities expands, so does our message to Israeli society: THERE IS ANOTHER WAY.
​

http://www.handinhandk12.org/

 

[scon]

Surely everyone on the board would condemn this attack on a Hand in Hand school.

http://www.handinhandk12.org/

Yep can't imagine why anyone would want to think that is intelligent behaviour.
Looks to be the calling card of mindless bigots attacking and trying to destroy a worthwhile gutsy attempt at making reconciliation a meaningful option.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Yep can't imagine why anyone would want to think that is intelligent behaviour.
Looks to be the calling card of mindless bigots attacking and trying to destroy a worthwhile gutsy attempt at making reconciliation a meaningful option.

Perhaps it was just some dumbarse teenagers. But whoever did it, I think they have scored an own goal. The news story has given a lot of publicity to the school and people have rallied round it. Reading their website is quite inspiring. Sometimes its hard not to look at the conflict and despair how there might be a peaceful resolution, but joint Israeli Arab initiatives like the Hand In Hand schools offer a little glimmer of hope.

 

[Pie eyed]

You you can easily be a non-lefty while acknowledging Israel's right to exist but condemn their brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.

Could you explain the Israeli states right to exist in a short paragraph for me?

 

[Lester Burnham]

Could you explain the Israeli states right to exist in a short paragraph for me?

No state has a fundamental right to exist. I know the history of the area and I know the injustices for the people that were displaced. But there is no going back in terms of Israel's existence. Israel has a population that advocates its statehood and is willing to defend it, it has a democratic government that presides over the state, and it is recognised as a state by nearly all other states across the world. That's about as good as you get.

Recognising Israel's right to exist does not mean acceptance of any particular border claims or what form an Israeli state should take. Reparations for previous ethnic upheavals could occur. But it is unrealistic and counter-productive to start with an assumption that the state of Israel should not continue to exist.

 

[Old Spice]

No state has a fundamental right to exist. I know the history of the area and I know the injustices for the people that were displaced. But there is no going back in terms of Israel's existence. Israel has a population that advocates its statehood and is willing to defend it, it has a democratic government that presides over the state, and it is recognised as a state by nearly all other states across the world. That's about as good as you get.

Recognising Israel's right to exist does not mean acceptance of any particular border claims or what form an Israeli state should take. Reparations for previous ethnic upheavals could occur. But it is unrealistic and counter-productive to start with an assumption that the state of Israel should not continue to exist.

So the extreme political positions within the state of Israel can be accommodated - Zionism and secularism?

 

[Pie eyed]

Both sides can GAGF. Evacuate the kids and the people who legitimately just want peace and are not interested in killing the other side. Then bomb the crap out of the place until all the angry people are dead. Then rebuild it and move the kids and peace lovers back in to live together in harmony forever and ever.

Easier to just hire a crew hitman to rub out the war mongerers. Say a 4-5 thousand in Israel and palestine and 3-4 hundred in America

No state has a fundamental right to exist. I know the history of the area and I know the injustices for the people that were displaced. But there is no going back in terms of Israel's existence. Israel has a population that advocates its statehood and is willing to defend it, it has a democratic government that presides over the state, and it is recognised as a state by nearly all other states across the world. That's about as good as you get.

Recognising Israel's right to exist does not mean acceptance of any particular border claims or what form an Israeli state should take. Reparations for previous ethnic upheavals could occur. But it is unrealistic and counter-productive to start with an assumption that the state of Israel should not continue to exist.

Ha, really depends on which end of the US supplied missile you're on....
It is easy for you to make this statement because you lost nothing, invested nothing and suffer nothing. You take a solely disaffected intellectual standpoint which is the only standpoint which realistically allows to you hold the views you do.
This is exactly why so many, genuinely, do not understand why the Palestinians continue to fight for what was theirs and will probably continue to until the current glacial genocide sees them wiped out through attrition.
Palestine was a convenient dumping ground for European Jews the victorious did not want in there countries, which was sadly never discussed with the current landlords.
Sure they're pissed.
If the Russians deposited a million or so Ukrainians in the middle of Victoria, WA or Queensland and called it a sovereign state....
Well who would be squealing loudest?
Yes I know it was mooted to set-up a Jewish state in WA.
Could you imagine the outcry from the Fremantle crowd on BF?

 

[spinynorman]

Easier to just hire a crew hitman to rub out the war mongerers. Say a 4-5 thousand in Israel and palestine and 3-4 hundred in America


Ha, really depends on which end of the US supplied missile you're on....
It is easy for you to make this statement because you lost nothing, invested nothing and suffer nothing. You take a solely disaffected intellectual standpoint which is the only standpoint which realistically allows to you hold the views you do.
This is exactly why so many, genuinely, do not understand why the Palestinians continue to fight for what was theirs and will probably continue to until the current glacial genocide sees them wiped out through attrition.
Palestine was a convenient dumping ground for European Jews the victorious did not want in there countries, which was sadly never discussed with the current landlords.
Sure they're pissed.
If the Russians deposited a million or so Ukrainians in the middle of Victoria, WA or Queensland and called it a sovereign state....
Well who would be squealing loudest?
Yes I know it was mooted to set-up a Jewish state in WA.
Could you imagine the outcry from the Fremantle crowd on BF?

Exactly right. I find it odd that many of those who accept that the decimation of the indigenous populations of Australia and America seem to not recognise that likewise there were original inhabitants of the land that is now Israel who have been dispossessed and slowly being wiped out. If we accept imperialism was wrong in the 18th/19th century, we should accept it likewise today.

A good article on the plight of Palestinians and the comparisons with the plight of the Tasmanian Aboriginals: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/when-settlers-dream/

 

[Redalert]

Exactly right. I find it odd that many of those who accept that the decimation of the indigenous populations of Australia and America seem to not recognise that likewise there were original inhabitants of the land that is now Israel who have been dispossessed and slowly being wiped out. If we accept imperialism was wrong in the 18th/19th century, we should accept it likewise today.

A good article on the plight of Palestinians and the comparisons with the plight of the Tasmanian Aboriginals: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/when-settlers-dream/

And yet for some reason we don't see the media calling on the US or Australia to surrender territory to their indigenous populations.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

And yet for some reason we don't see the media calling on the US or Australia to surrender territory to their indigenous populations.

Maybe that's because they are equal citizens with full rights - and don't have to recognise the 'Christian character of the Christian State of Australia', for instance. Guaranteed, if Tony Abbott was to declare such a thing tomorrow there would be resistance.

If pre-1948 Palestine could have been a homeland for ALL instead of this dreadful partitioned bullshit that it became, we mightn't be seeing the rubbish going on that we see today.

 

[Redalert]

Under ideal circumstances that's what it should've been, but a primary motivator behind setting up Israel was to specifically protect Jews from persecution. That involved the foundation of a uniquely Jewish state, because as evidenced by the Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in recent history (and most of Europe before that), large secular governments had a tendency to devolve into antisemitism.

 

[SterlingArcher]

I find it amazing how little criticism the Egyptians are receiving for their role in the strangling of Gaza.

Do you have any links to stuff to read about this? And further, other countries involvement and motivation in Gaza?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Under ideal circumstances that's what it should've been, but a primary motivator behind setting up Israel was to specifically protect Jews from persecution. That involved the foundation of a uniquely Jewish state, because as evidenced by the Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in recent history (and most of Europe before that), large secular governments had a tendency to devolve into antisemitism.

Yeah, I agree that the Jewish People have indeed got the shitty end of the stick several times over the course of history. I agree that they need a space free from persecution. But I believe that space is Earth - the whole planet. Not just one tiny nation of Israel, the creation of which displaced a multitude of people already living there.

The Jewish Homeland is Earth.
The Christian Homeland is Earth.
The Islamic Homeland is Earth.

The sooner ethno-religious supremacists of all stripes realise that we've only got one world to share amongst us all, and that only through peaceful co-existence do we all benefit, the better.

 

[The Edukator]

Yeah, I agree that the Jewish People have indeed got the shitty end of the stick several times over the course of history. I agree that they need a space free from persecution. But I believe that space is Earth - the whole planet. Not just one tiny nation of Israel, the creation of which displaced a multitude of people already living there.

The Jewish Homeland is Earth.
The Christian Homeland is Earth.
The Islamic Homeland is Earth.

The sooner ethno-religious supremacists of all stripes realise that we've only got one world to share amongst us all, and that only through peaceful co-existence do we all benefit, the better.

obviously this is ideal but just because it is so it doesn't mean extremists will all of a sudden put down their weapons. nothing new here.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

True, that. Part of the problem though is lumping extremists with moderates and punishing the lot. I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here - the hardliners of both sides need to be marginalised and eventually silenced.

Extremists feed on ignorance fuelled by frustration. Remove the frustration, quell the ignorance and starve the extremists. It takes willpower and vision, that's all.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Maybe because the Arabs instigated it? "The nasty israelis are bombing us when we fired rockets at them in the first place".

And why did the Palestinians fire rockets in the first place?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I will support Israel, end of discussion. I do not have the time or energy to argue with you, as I am in poor health at the moment. I am not rendering your argument invalid, but there is more to the story that I haven't the energy to delve into. We'll have to agree to disagree. All I will say is this: I will always support a Jewish nation over an Islamic one. In fact, I would support any nation against an islamic one.

Disagreements aside, sorry to hear about your poor health. Hope you're in recovery mode

 

[JeffDunne]

Do you have any links to stuff to read about this? And further, other countries involvement and motivation in Gaza?

This short video sums it up.



Google Egypt & Gaza or Sinai & you'll find plenty of reporting on it. The Egyptian military are as complicit in the strangling of Gaza as the Israeli's.

The international silence on Egypt's tactics in the wider Sinai is staggering.

 

[telsor]

And why did the Palestinians fire rockets in the first place?

Because nearby arab countries wouldn't accept them and instead pay them to stir up trouble in order to give their own people an external target so they don't revolt against their own governments.

Of course, they wouldn't have needed to be accepted if the Israeli's hadn't expelled some of them (and more left on their own accord).

Which wouldn't have happened if the Arabs had been willing to co-exist in the first place when Jews tried to move there.

Which wouldn't have happened if the Germans hadn't tried to kill all the Jews.

Which wouldn't have happened if Germany hadn't had Hitler take over

Which wouldn't have happened if Germany hadn't been humiliated in WW1

Which wouldn't have happened if a Bosnian hadn't shot archduke Ferdinand

Which wouldn't have happened If Serbia hadn't funded the black hand (terrorist group).


Just how far back do you want to go here?