Oppo Camp Other Games Rolling Thread 2024 Edition

[gouki88]

Being third best forward in our current team is about as reliable an indicator of performance and ability as second best leader of the Victorian Liberal Party or best Republican presidential nominee.

What did you expect? Lots of complaints, but I'm still yet to hear what you thought Schultz would bring

 

[No SPIN]

When did I go hard on McStay? And why should I go easy on Schulz underperforming in a s**t team when Ginni is performing in a s**t team?

Schultz is miles ahead of Ginnivan as a player, notwithstanding his slow start.
it’s not even close.
Make your case as to why my premise is wrong.

 

[gouki88]

Schultz is miles ahead of Ginnivan as a player, notwithstanding his slow start.
it’s not even close.
Make your case as to why my premise is wrong.

I would say even this season he is. Ginnivan is yet to lay a tackle this year! His defensive game seems to have actually declined

 

[Vicky Park]

Sydney looking pretty good.

If it’s not us, then I’ll spend the season desperately looking for reassurance that another side can beat Carlton.

Footy is a simple game for me, with two season objectives:

We win the flag.

Or

Carlton don’t win the flag.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Schultz is miles ahead of Ginnivan as a player, notwithstanding his slow start.
it’s not even close.
Make your case as to why my premise is wrong.

At this point in time, this season, Ginnivan is the better performed of the two players.

 

[sr36]

It’s pretty simple. Do something on the field that results in a concussion and you will be suspended.

No that's not the rules at all.

It was a marking contest. He'll get off. The bloke coming back with the flight is the one doing the dangerous thing in that situation - it's why we eulogise about the courage of doing it.

 

[No SPIN]

At this point in time, this season, Ginnivan is the better performed of the two players.

You need to be more expansive with data- otherwise this just a subjective opinion.

 

[Lockyer24]

AFL public and media to do a 180 on the “Maynard rule” this week no doubt

 

[Maggie5]

You need to be more expansive with data- otherwise this just a subjective opinion.

It isn't that difficult to highlight data that supports a subjective opinion.

In fact majority of opinions on forums are subjective.

 

[HFF]

Everywhere you look again this round….every team except us is playing its youngsters and a large collection of them at once.

We play Macrae yet he plays as sub for example.

We are missing out big time here….the longer we delay this the harder it will be.

 

[No SPIN]

It isn't that difficult to highlight data that supports a subjective opinion.

In fact majority of opinions on forums are subjective.

Doesn’t the use of data turn the opinion from subjective to objective?

 

[Maggie5]

Doesn’t the use of data turn the opinion from subjective to objective?

No because you can be selective in which data you use.

Choosing those that support your view then ignoring others that don't.

Take Elliott for example, some say he has been awful but I defend him due his pressure, tackling, smothers, shepherding, running.

Things he does when not in possession. Some only look at goals or missed goals and that is the stat they judge a player on.

 

[brysie]

Doesn’t the use of data turn the opinion from subjective to objective?

I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying that there are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics.

The statistics or data may be objective in and of themselves but interpretations of what the data means can be highly subjective.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying that there are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics.

The statistics or data may be objective in and of themselves but interpretations of what the data means can be highly subjective.

I actually don't think No Spin would benefit in this instance from a statistical comparison as Ginni's figures for 2 weeks would look more impressive. Besides, statistically I am so certain of my position that I could not be bothered wasting my time finding and quoting stats. My opinion is largely based on Hawthorn's BF game thread and the opinions expressed my numerous supporters watching the games and my own observation of Schulz. Ginni like Schultz played in a team that was smashed by the opposition and he was only one of a few players to stand up. But as Maggie noted, statistics also don't tell the full story.

 

[brysie]

I actually don't think No Spin would benefit in this instance from a statistical comparison as Ginni's figures for 2 weeks would look more impressive. Besides, statistically I am so certain of my position that I could not be bothered wasting my time finding and quoting stats. My opinion is largely based on Hawthorn's BF game thread and the opinions expressed my numerous supporters watching the games and my own observation of Schulz. Ginni like Schultz played in a team that was smashed by the opposition and he was only one of a few players to stand up. But as Maggie noted, statistics also don't tell the full story.

No SPIN might benefit by inserting a comma in their username, just after the word No.

Statistics in their raw form are simply a measurement of something. Like any measure of output, they are subject to the inputs from which they’re derived. Similarly, statements or propositions that seek to ascribe a subjective measure such as value to data are largely subjective.

For what it’s worth, the stats of Schulz and Ginnivan so far this season are as follows:

Ginnivan:
17 disposals (11 kicks, 6 handballs), 5 marks, 0 tackles, 2.0, 76%DE (Ess)
17 disposals (9 kicks, 8 handballs), 6 marks, 0 tackles, 0.1, 76%DE (Melb)

Schulz:
16 disposals (8 kicks, 8 handballs), 5 marks, 6 tackles, 0.3, 56%DE (GWS)
10 disposals (6 kicks, 4 handballs), 3 marks, 2 tackles, 2.0, 70%DE (Syd)
11 disposals (7 kicks, 4 handballs), 6 marks, 1 tackle, 1.0, 90%DE (St. K)

If you’re ’pro-Ginnivan’ (for want of a better term), you’d point to a higher average possession count and disposal efficiency. Conversely, if you’re ’pro-Schulz’, you’d point to a higher tackle count, slightly higher average scoreboard impact and an improving disposal efficiency.

Of course, stats aren’t infected by a player’s contract or acquisition cost, but any arguments regarding a player’s worth are.

Personally I think it’s too early to be making judgements on either player. Ginnivan is probably performing above expectations and Schulz below them, but the sample size is pretty small.

 

[No SPIN]

No SPIN might benefit by inserting a comma in their username, just after the word No.

Statistics in their raw form are simply a measurement of something. Like any measure of output, they are subject to the inputs from which they’re derived. Similarly, statements or propositions that seek to ascribe a subjective measure such as value to data are largely subjective.

For what it’s worth, the stats of Schulz and Ginnivan so far this season are as follows:

Ginnivan:
17 disposals (11 kicks, 6 handballs), 5 marks, 0 tackles, 2.0, 76%DE (Ess)
17 disposals (9 kicks, 8 handballs), 6 marks, 0 tackles, 0.1, 76%DE (Melb)

Schulz:
16 disposals (8 kicks, 8 handballs), 5 marks, 6 tackles, 0.3, 56%DE (GWS)
10 disposals (6 kicks, 4 handballs), 3 marks, 2 tackles, 2.0, 70%DE (Syd)
11 disposals (7 kicks, 4 handballs), 6 marks, 1 tackle, 1.0, 90%DE (St. K)

If you’re ’pro-Ginnivan’ (for want of a better term), you’d point to a higher average possession count and disposal efficiency. Conversely, if you’re ’pro-Schulz’, you’d point to a higher tackle count, slightly higher average scoreboard impact and an improving disposal efficiency.

Of course, stats aren’t infected by a player’s contract or acquisition cost, but any arguments regarding a player’s worth are.

Personally I think it’s too early to be making judgements on either player. Ginnivan is probably performing above expectations and Schulz below them, but the sample size is pretty small.

Good post.
So now we get to the crux off the issue namely are Schultz’s numbers better than when Ginnivan played the same role last year. On that basis it’s no contest his effort tackles and urgency are superior to Ginnivan.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

No SPIN might benefit by inserting a comma in their username, just after the word No.

Statistics in their raw form are simply a measurement of something. Like any measure of output, they are subject to the inputs from which they’re derived. Similarly, statements or propositions that seek to ascribe a subjective measure such as value to data are largely subjective.

For what it’s worth, the stats of Schulz and Ginnivan so far this season are as follows:

Ginnivan:
17 disposals (11 kicks, 6 handballs), 5 marks, 0 tackles, 2.0, 76%DE (Ess)
17 disposals (9 kicks, 8 handballs), 6 marks, 0 tackles, 0.1, 76%DE (Melb)

Schulz:
16 disposals (8 kicks, 8 handballs), 5 marks, 6 tackles, 0.3, 56%DE (GWS)
10 disposals (6 kicks, 4 handballs), 3 marks, 2 tackles, 2.0, 70%DE (Syd)
11 disposals (7 kicks, 4 handballs), 6 marks, 1 tackle, 1.0, 90%DE (St. K)

If you’re ’pro-Ginnivan’ (for want of a better term), you’d point to a higher average possession count and disposal efficiency. Conversely, if you’re ’pro-Schulz’, you’d point to a higher tackle count, slightly higher average scoreboard impact and an improving disposal efficiency.

Of course, stats aren’t infected by a player’s contract or acquisition cost, but any arguments regarding a player’s worth are.

Personally I think it’s too early to be making judgements on either player. Ginnivan is probably performing above expectations and Schulz below them, but the sample size is pretty small.

Ginnivan in the first week also had around 7-8 goal assists, which I guess is another statistic that needs to be considered. But I agree that sample size is too small. I would still contend that my method of relying on the subjective opinions of BF supporters from both clubs is at least as useful as raw statistics.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Good post.
So now we get to the crux off the issue namely are Schultz’s numbers better than when Ginnivan played the same role last year. On that basis it’s no contest his effort tackles and urgency are superior to Ginnivan.

Ginnivan's games were highly praised in the Hawthorn game threads both weeks whereas Schultz's games caused many Collingwood posters to question his recruitment. The debate was never really about numbers but the relative worth of each player's performance and the price paid to obtain each of the men.

 

[No SPIN]

Ginnivan's games were highly praised in the Hawthorn game threads both weeks whereas Schultz's games caused many Collingwood posters to question his recruitment. The debate was never really about numbers but the relative worth of each player's performance and the price paid to obtain each of the men.

I’m not taking views of another group of supporters with lower relative expectations as proof of Ginnivan’s superiority.
You are far to easily convinced by using this metric.

 

[danielnajdek]

Dwayne is so annoying to listen to. Just stfu.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

I’m not taking views of another group of supporters with lower relative expectations as proof of Ginnivan’s superiority.
You are far to easily convinced by using this metric.

Particularly about a player every other team & their supporters spent the past 2 years hating.

Clearly they are over compensating because he's now one of them.

 

[Fat Jesus]

Talent wise.
Schultz, daylight, Ginni.
This is true.
Wait until the team clicks and tell me all about Schultzy then.

 

[Maggie5]

I’m not taking views of another group of supporters with lower relative expectations as proof of Ginnivan’s superiority.
You are far to easily convinced by using this metric.

As a matter of interest, how many live VFL/AFL games do you get to each year?

 

[danielnajdek]

Port get WC then Richmond in the first 2 weeks.

 

[No SPIN]

As a matter of interest, how many live VFL/AFL games do you get to each year?

Enough to be confident I can support my views.