List Mgmt. Retirements and delistings 2014

[BuntonRules]

Cannot see a future. But then Karnesis is the 1 I would have thrown to the wolves - PSD. **** Collingwood.

 

[western royboy]

I reckon you've got to careful trying to judge undersized forwards by their stats at state-league level, particularly amount of goals. Defenders in the big time tend to be much taller and stronger. Paine would've been able to move most of the VFL full backs off the line of the ball in a marking contest but virtually none at AFL level.

All the same, WRB is probably harsh to say he hasn't shown much at any level.

Nail-head-bang Let me add a few extra words to clarify my view He has never shown anything to indicate he will make it at Senior AFL level.

 

[POBT]

While I agree that Paine hasn't shown a lot to date, I see a role for his "type" in our forward structure. I don't think his movement issues are beyond rectification. He's never going to move like Buddy but, equally, what we really need from his type is to play smart footy - be in the right spots all the time, apply enough defensive pressure and, when the footy comes his way, to win or break even on his contest. It is a "role" within a forward structure that may not be measurable on possessions and goals.

In the last few years, we've generally played our best footy when that role is occupied by McGrath and occasionally Bewick - little blokes who are more than capable of taking a mark inside 50 on the lead. The question in my mind is whether that is sustainable. Some sides manage it - Collingwood go through stages of using Elliot/Goldsack as the third banana and neither is a genuine 3rd tall size. The issue I think is that it makes your ball movement very predictable - if you only have two blokes up forward capable of taking a contested grab, the opposition defence structure up accordingly. A smart 3rd tall forward capable of taking a contested mark really changes things up.

But they can't be a liability when the ball hits the deck. They must have a higher workrate than the key forwards because their defensive role is so vital. And they can't be so immobile that you are effectively playing another genuine tall forward.

In some respects, they need to be a jack of all trades, first and foremost. They can't have any obvious weakness in their game, even if they have another strength to make up for it. I think if Paine can just improve his fitness/mobility a bit, he can potentially have a crack at that third tall role. Structurally, I think we'd be better off him playing that role than someone like Paparone who really offers nothing as a marking target - but Paine needs to fix that mobility issue so that it is not a weakness.

I'm not confident just yet that he'll make it as a player. But I reckon there is a role for him if he works hard on his weaknesses.

 

[LIONHART]

we seem to have been spectacular at recruiting the 'spuds' from other clubs ... whilst not able to hold on to the really great one's with all the potential ... is it our culture, poor recruiting ... poor development coaching or a combination of all.

 

[jackess]

we seem to have been spectacular at recruiting the 'spuds' from other clubs ... whilst not able to hold on to the really great one's with all the potential ... is it our culture, poor recruiting ... poor development coaching or a combination of all.

It's more the fact we don't have anything to offer guns from other clubs that might be looking at a trade.

 

[Skoob]

It's more the fact we don't have anything to offer guns from other clubs that might be looking at a trade.

*Didn't have. (Much); "Hi, how would you like to play in our forward line and stay the * out of Brownie's way?" Hmm, appealing.

That is no longer the case, so we may be a more attractive option.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Spoke with Patty Wearden's parents on the Wellington Cable Car over in NZ earlier this season. I know it's not the best reason but his parents are lovely people and Wearden seems like a top bloke as well. For that reason I personally hope he gets another year.

 

[iBeng]

Spoke with Patty Wearden's parents on the Wellington Cable Car over in NZ earlier this season. I know it's not the best reason but his parents are lovely people and Wearden seems like a top bloke as well. For that reason I personally hope he gets another year.

Wouldnt be surprised if we Rookie him, as we have done in the past with draftees who couldnt get on the park after 2-3 years.


I think we should be able to attract a name to the club now...We should have plenty of Salary Cap now and we need to be aggressive with it. Its a pity Beams's brother is so tainted by Collingwood, would love to see Claye and Dayne tearing it up for us.

 

[snooplions]

Regardless of the fact that some of you don't seem to think Jackson Paine is showing enough potential for the future, I think he could be an integral part of our forward line in the coming years. He's young and has a few more kg's and a lot more strength to gain as well as knowledge in regard to body positioning etc, just because he's dominated in the VFL and reserves and then struggled in the seniors doesn't make him a write off, it makes him an investment. I'm confident he will become a regular in the next twelve months and will bring his vfl form with him as he develops.

 

[Ironmonger]

Spoke with Patty Wearden's parents on the Wellington Cable Car over in NZ earlier this season. I know it's not the best reason but his parents are lovely people and Wearden seems like a top bloke as well. For that reason I personally hope he gets another year.

I don't understand. How is this Sharpless' fault?

Seriously, top post though.

 

[chopperduck]

Paine still has some time, but i very much agree with POBT. It is hard to find the right balance with that 3rd forward position, and it is why players like Darling have jumped out of the box previously. I think ideally, you want someone like Paine, someone who can use their body well, can take a contested mark. They don't need to dominate as they are only the 3rd banana, but they need to have good work rate to keep their opponent honest and be in the right spots. Likewise they need some defensive ability and crumbing presence when the ball is going to the other 2 blokes 85% of the time.

It is seriously really hard to find those really good medium marking type forwards, and the league in general seems obsessed with getting these blokes to eventually become midfielders, and for the love of me i can't understand why they they are so good at what they do, and that involves kicking goals. I'd rather go out and find a midfielder to play midfield, rather than get a good medium forward and hope we can turn him into a mid. Karni is a player who i see that fits this mold. Sure, these days most players need to be able to spend a few minutes in the middle as part of the rotations, but when you have those guys who are just naturally good at that 3rd tall position, leave them there!

Also with the direction the league is going in with limited rotations, i think we will see less need of other positions needing to do midfield time. We should see players who are good HB rebounders or lead up forwards come back a bit, because they will be worth their weight where they are. Full time mids will need better fitness to compete, and the talls won't get bench rests as much so the mids can get a break. But overall i think getting those types of players is great. It is why i liked us drafting Mayes, he just has a natural ability to kick a goal, leads well and just all round seems at home in the front half. Now whilst young i don't mind him being moved around to develop him but long term HF is his position.

 

[acuguy]

Mayes is our 3rd tall forward for all the reasons you stated chopper. Paine is someone worth persisting with. He has had dodgy shoulders and a limited pre season. Let's see what he delivers after a full pre season. Like the idea of trialling him down back.

 

[POBT]

Don't agree that Mayes is a third tall forward. I don't think he'll ever be physical enough to play the role. He seems perfectly suited to the clever half forward, changing onball role.

 

[Big Lion]

Some may disagree but McGuane if fit makes a good 3rd tall.

 

[POBT]

Assuming we don't cut super deep (ie changes are Brown, McGrath, Polkinghorne, Moloney, Raines), our likely list balance in terms of games played is interesting.

150+ games:

Adcock
Staker
Merrett
Patfull
Maguire

100+ games

McGuane
Rich
Redden
Rockliff

50+ games

Harwood
Green
Bewick
Hanley
Martin
West
Zorko
Leuenberger
Lester
Golby

25+ games

Beams
Paparone
Mayes
Clarke
Lisle (*)

10+ games

Aish
Crisp
Robertson (*)
Cutler (*)
Gardiner
Taylor
Close
Paine

At least 1 game

McStay
O'Brien

Zero games

Wearden
Freeman

(Might have missed some names)

That is 19 players who have played at least 50 games. It is also another 4 "best 22" players who could hit the 50 game mark in 2015, fitness permitting. And 10 blokes who could get to 25 games by the end of next year.

The fewer players on field who have under 25 games experience, the better off we'll be. Provided we keep the group together, I think we may have broken the back of the development process, even if there are still some hard yards ahead.


edit: the * denotes a player who needs to play a couple more games to be in that games played grouping.

 

[acuguy]

POBT, I don't think Mayes has leg speed or inside game to be a midfielder. He is a great lead up, work into space and marking footballer. He is also an excellent kick for goals. Whether you call him the 3rd tall or a forward flanker, I think the forward half is where he will hurt other teams.

As for cutting deep. I would expect Leppa to cut deep, very deep!

 

[POBT]

Mayes covers the ground pretty well. I have no concerns whatsoever about his pace. In fact, I'm surprised you raise it as an issue.

I agree on his inside game though. He can be a bit weak at the man in the tackle too.

 

[acuguy]

Mayes covers the ground pretty well. I have no concerns whatsoever about his pace. In fact, I'm surprised you raise it as an issue.

I agree on his inside game though. He can be a bit weak at the man in the tackle too.

He isn't a plodder but he definitely is not an line breaker when carrying the footy. I just don't see him as a midfielder. I think Gunston when I think Mayes

 

[POBT]

He isn't a plodder but he definitely is not an line breaker when carrying the footy. I just don't see him as a midfielder. I think Gunston when I think Mayes

I think Steve Johnson, not quite the same magic but the same way of moving and finding space.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

I think more Nigel Lappin than Stevey J. I agree with acuguy that Mayes is a silky mover rather than quick. But one of our greatest ever players (Blacky) was one of the slowest around but quick of mind and hand. What a legend.

 

[DanT7]

Not sure why we'd delist McGrath. Been good since back. Even if he is the Giansericusa sub all of 2015

 

[lukiuslion]

He isn't a plodder but he definitely is not an line breaker when carrying the footy. I just don't see him as a midfielder. I think Gunston when I think Mayes

Good In theory but gunstun is 193cm and Mayes 187cm -

 

[chopperduck]

Mayes I see as a half forward or wing. Playing on the outside more where he can use his kicking And drifting forward to kick a goal. Lappin or a Notting i see him as. He will probably be part of the mid rotations but not a huge minutes of it. This year is a learning year for him, we are developing his game, like we are with many of the kids.

 

[jackess]

Not sure why we'd delist McGrath. Been good since back. Even if he is the Giansericusa sub all of 2015

If we are to go down the youth route and rebuild Ash would be the first I'd delist. Offers very little apart from a goal or 2 a game and the very occasional bag of goals. There are others better in mentoring roles as well. Being as unfit as he is its hard to see his body holding up. Very big difference between Gia and Ash IMO.

 

[a mayes ing]

If we are to go down the youth route and rebuild Ash would be the first I'd delist. Offers very little apart from a goal or 2 a game and the very occasional bag of goals. There are others better in mentoring roles as well. Being as unfit as he is its hard to see his body holding up. Very big difference between Gia and Ash IMO.

If he pops up with a goal or 2 or even kicks a bag once in a while, l think that would be fantastic. You can't have a team full of kids like Neeld as you would be uncompetetive and it wouldn't develop them properly.