List Mgmt. Rookie Draft: Welcome - Jack Sinclair, Ahmed Saad, Brenton Payne & Adam Schneider

[HayesTheChamp]

Also spoke to a mate of mine who attended Scotch - saw a fair bit of Jack Sinclair. He alluded to the fact that Jack is one of those boys who due to natural athletic talent was good at any sport he picked up. Good athleticism, excited to see what he can make of himself over the next couple of years!

 

[ike2112]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I really can't overstate how much I disagree with this approach.
It's a sure fire way to creat a two tiered group and exactly what a young developing club would want to avoid.
Jack Steven was a late-ish pick. When he turned good what could we say if he announced "Collingwood have offered me $500k, and the coach never spoke to me or gave me the time of day. Cya later".
"But you're good now so you'll get attention"?
Collingwood's rat pack was born out of this I reckon. Two sets of rules and two different standards.
Paddy got it right when he said "doesn't matter when you're picked we're all the same when we walk in the club."
I'd be shocked and disappointed if Richo treated anyone differently. (And I seriously doubt he does!)

This isn't my opinion necessarily on what the best approach is. I'm saying this is how coaching works. Qualifications and lectures spanning 21 years and speakers or teachers from over 10 sports; not once have I heard any of them, ever, promote a "fair" spread of coaching across the playing squad or a focus on the ones not ready to play at the top level yet (other than at age groups below 15 obviously).
Frankly to take a step back and look at it with a holistic approach, it would make better sense for the world's best coaches to work with kids and coach youth teams. But it just doesn't happen - the top is where the status and money is at, and its also where pressure is greatest. If Billings and McCartin and Goddard end up rubbish, Richo will get fired. If Payne ends up getting delisted in 2 seasons nobody really will care much. That is how professional (even many amateur) sport is; you have to focus on the key assets as that's what will keep you in a job.

Or you can believe, for example, that when Chelsea signed Eden Hazard, they gave him just the same level of coaching and attention as Kevin Wright, who was signed to them the same month, or Dion Conroy - cos hey, it doesn't matter what they cost, everyone's equal.

 

[St_Laz]

This isn't my opinion necessarily on what the best approach is. I'm saying this is how coaching works. Qualifications and lectures spanning 21 years and speakers or teachers from over 10 sports; not once have I heard any of them, ever, promote a "fair" spread of coaching across the playing squad or a focus on the ones not ready to play at the top level yet (other than at age groups below 15 obviously).
Frankly to take a step back and look at it with a holistic approach, it would make better sense for the world's best coaches to work with kids and coach youth teams. But it just doesn't happen - the top is where the status and money is at, and its also where pressure is greatest. If Billings and McCartin and Goddard end up rubbish, Richo will get fired. If Payne ends up getting delisted in 2 seasons nobody really will care much. That is how professional (even many amateur) sport is; you have to focus on the key assets as that's what will keep you in a job.

Or you can believe, for example, that when Chelsea signed Eden Hazard, they gave him just the same level of coaching and attention as Kevin Wright, who was signed to them the same month, or Dion Conroy - cos hey, it doesn't matter what they cost, everyone's equal.

If there was a prima doña that waltzed in and said "I'm a first round draft pick, so I want special treatment", then they'd be the first one out the door for me.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

As Tommy Wigs so admirably reported, young Jack's enthusiasm for footy waned a bit in 2013. He's always been a good cricketer as well. My personal opinion is that he saw all his mates getting drafted and lost a bit of confidence. Two of his closest mates are Jack Billings and Luke McDonald.

He's a quiet bloke and keeps a lot of his thinking to himself. This year he obviously decided to not discard football without having a red hot crack and giving it a real go. Sinkers thrives on mateship and sticking together. He's going to get better and better being with one of his best mates.

Don't ignore the fact that our very competent recruiters knew all about the close relationship between Sinkers and JB, and what it could produce from both of them being together.

That's interesting. Appreciate the background. So when you say he is a quiet kid, would you see him as a bit introverted in the true sense (ie not a lack of confidence as such, just derives his energy from within) or that he actually lacks confidence?

And there I was all spring thinking Billings and Petracca would rotate kicking goals and switching mid rotations. When in fact it will be Jack and Jack?

 

[Rors]

Weve got 1 flag in over 140 yrs.
Most other clubs supporters laugh at us.
Children Saints supporters had to listen to disgusting chants from most of those clubs cheersquads about Milney for 10 yrs
The wealthy clubs who cheated & paid for most of their premierships have been smug as all f*** towards us for a long time.

I can honestly say i have never ever had the slightest inkling of "feeling" for any of the other clubs.
Ill be happy when we rise again and start kicking some arse .

This x10000000000000

Great post

 

[Rissoles]

That's interesting. Appreciate the background. So when you say he is a quiet kid, would you see him as a bit introverted in the true sense (ie not a lack of confidence as such, just derives his energy from within) or that he actually lacks confidence?

And there I was all spring thinking Billings and Petracca would rotate kicking goals and switching mid rotations. When in fact it will be Jack and Jack?

Luke McD, JB & Sinkers have been best mates since they were 8yo. Luke is the outgoing one and I would say a born leader. He is like Luke Hodge - not flashy or overly gifted with talent but will earn admiration by deeds. JB is the 'in-betweener' - too gifted to be a captain because he will do the things others just can't do. Sinkers is the quiet achiever who excels in a team atmosphere and loves achieving with others - especially with those he feels comfortable with.

You're right. Jack Sinclair derives energy from within but he also absorbs energy from others he respects.

 

[joop]

Weve got 1 flag in over 140 yrs.
Most other clubs supporters laugh at us.
Children Saints supporters had to listen to disgusting chants from most of those clubs cheersquads about Milney for 10 yrs
The wealthy clubs who cheated & paid for most of their premierships have been smug as all f*** towards us for a long time.

I can honestly say i have never ever had the slightest inkling of "feeling" for any of the other clubs.
Ill be happy when we rise again and start kicking some arse .

I'd be surprised if you found any supporter of any club that didn't like kicking ass

 

[walshystkfc]

Great Selections! Welcom lads!

 

[TheJackal]

This isn't my opinion necessarily on what the best approach is. I'm saying this is how coaching works. Qualifications and lectures spanning 21 years and speakers or teachers from over 10 sports; not once have I heard any of them, ever, promote a "fair" spread of coaching across the playing squad or a focus on the ones not ready to play at the top level yet (other than at age groups below 15 obviously).
Frankly to take a step back and look at it with a holistic approach, it would make better sense for the world's best coaches to work with kids and coach youth teams. But it just doesn't happen - the top is where the status and money is at, and its also where pressure is greatest. If Billings and McCartin and Goddard end up rubbish, Richo will get fired. If Payne ends up getting delisted in 2 seasons nobody really will care much. That is how professional (even many amateur) sport is; you have to focus on the key assets as that's what will keep you in a job.

Or you can believe, for example, that when Chelsea signed Eden Hazard, they gave him just the same level of coaching and attention as Kevin Wright, who was signed to them the same month, or Dion Conroy - cos hey, it doesn't matter what they cost, everyone's equal.

I appreciate your experience and qualifications but I just can't bring myself to believe that a number one pick will get preferential treatment and coaching over a rookie pick.

I completely understand your point from a junior/development program perspective where the elite kids need to be pushed to that higher level but we are talking about a professional sport at that higher level here. It's not like you have Tuesday/Thursday night training and that's it, they are 24/7 footballers, so should be available for what, 40 hours a week to do all of the necessary skills/fitness sessions.

I don't believe these rookies who were just drafted will be left to sink or swim because their success isn't as important as the success of a first round draft pick.

If that is the case, there is something seriously wrong with our development because it's your bottom six who are your most important to the success of a team.

 

[12Chill]

The more insight I read on Jack Sinclair, I like him more and more. Great posts

 

[ike2112]

They won't be left to sink or swim, they just won't be the focus.

The bottom six are not the most important to the success of a team. That's madness. You're basically telling me Markworth, Siposs, Simpkin, Payne, Pierce and Murdoch are the 6 most important players for St Kilda's success?!!

It's extremely rare for a lowly pick to become an AFL star, playing at AA level. Those on the lower end of the list, your expectation on them to develop is to become a useful, contributing player. Injury cover that you can rely on.
But as I said, if two or three of them fail it's not that big a deal. Law of averages shows not everyone we draft/recruit will make it. But if the top 3 draft picks don't make it, then it'll get the staff (rightly) fired.

 

[Nutsngum]

They won't be left to sink or swim, they just won't be the focus.

The bottom six are not the most important to the success of a team. That's madness. You're basically telling me Markworth, Siposs, Simpkin, Payne, Pierce and Murdoch are the 6 most important players for St Kilda's success?!!

He is talking about the bottom 6 of your best 22, of which those 6 guys could be part of with enough work. I agree with him, a lack of true talent in our bottom 6 is what cost us two flags.

 

[Periphery]

because it's your bottom six who are your most important to the success of a team.

He is talking about the bottom 6 of your best 22, of which those 6 guys could be part of with enough work. I agree with him, a lack of true talent in our bottom 6 is what cost us two flags.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking but I noticed that Pelchen said the opposite in an article the other day: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-12-04/pelchens-analysis

It’s often suggested that the bottom six players in a team win Grand Finals when, in fact, it is the first six players who normally decide the outcome (despite the fashionable attraction for some people to suggest the alternative).

I'm not sure if I agree with him (it just doesn't sit well with me) but it's something to consider.

 

[ike2112]

He is talking about the bottom 6 of your best 22, of which those 6 guys could be part of with enough work. I agree with him, a lack of true talent in our bottom 6 is what cost us two flags.

In that case we are certainly talking about 2 different things and my original couple posts on the subject have been misconstrued.

It’s often suggested that the bottom six players in a team win Grand Finals when, in fact, it is the first six players who normally decide the outcome (despite the fashionable attraction for some people to suggest the alternative).

I'm not sure if I agree with him (it just doesn't sit well with me) but it's something to consider.

Personally I feel with AFL possibly more than any other invasion sport, its the middle talents that matter in the biggest games. The star players are always closely monitored - it's more than a coach's career is worth than to leave a star opponent to run amok.
I felt the 2013 Grand Final was a prime example - the Dockers were so tight on Mitchell, and worried about the forward rotations, Bradley Hill was left to do what he liked. He had 4 or 5 inside 50s with all the time in the world. Brad Hill isnt a star, but he isnt one of the bottom 6 either.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

If there was a prima doña that waltzed in and said "I'm a first round draft pick, so I want special treatment", then they'd be the first one out the door for me.

What ike2112 is saying is clubs will and do what gives them the best return for their time and money. In a business setting, if you allocate training, operations management, assistance, based on needs, you would spent 80% of your time, on the lowest performing 20%. Sure you will get improvement in these, but from a low base. If you do as most high performing franchises do and allocate more resources, to your top 20%, you reap far far higher gains, from an already high base.

This may not be seen as fair, or equitable, but in the real world, decisions and resources are allocated on exactly these principles. It is not about discriminating against lower performing / ability players, but recognising that poor performers are a bottomless bucket, that can if allowed, take all of your time and resources, for marginal improvement. Clubs would be very aware of having development staff to work on the basics with the beginners and low achievers from the list. But in so many ways, they give extra attention, advice etc to those who will give them the biggest rewards.

You only have to look at most huddles in matches. Coaches will go to their key players, to deliver messages that they want them to implement in their part of the ground for them, or their team mates. If they are singling out a lower performing player, it is because they need to be spoken about with a specific problem. Richo going to Roo, Monty, etc and asking for certain actions, is vastly different from his discussions with players who are in the group of bottom performers in the team / list. I would be upset if the club were giving equal time to all players, rather than managing and developing all players and trying to get the maximum return for staffing, time and resources.

 

[L_W_P]

My point though, is that given as a club we don't have infinite resources, and given almost our entire list is in development mode, I would want our development coaches to work with our highest-potential players as a priority. Then cascade down their attentions to those least likely to make it or with lowest perceived ceiling of ability.
That is the unpopular decision of a coach, and one that is horrible to make, but whilst the project player come good is often the best feeling for a coach, you have to be pragmatic and focus attention on the players who will matter more.

You should read a book called 'Outliers'. Goes into great detail about the more developed kids getting the best coaching at all levels of sport and how/why this happens.

Also highlights the flaws in this system.

 

[L_W_P]

In general I'd agree on both points. But with Cam Delaney as the example in both...

I state he was clearly one of the best players, as he has AFL minutes on the board already, and has looked decent. 12 months ago clubs wanted to trade for him. Even this year clubs considered trading for him. The Rookie draft pool consists of 1) the group of kids with the lowest expectations, or have other flags such as character issues that make them a risk, 2) Other entries that are overlooked state-leaguers or genuine wild cards like Amos Frank or the baseball player the Eagles just drafted, 3) delisted AFL vets at varying points in their careers.
Normally the category 3s from above are people with virtually no game experience, still a lot of development to do, or are guys clearly in their final go-round with little value other than to their existing club (see Schneider, Adam). Delaney only has 8 or so (?) games experience, but he is righly rated. And he's a mature body, ready to play and develop whilst being on the ground. Given the position he plays is also one that is highly-sought, I believe his value was higher than most other players in the rookie draft pool, certainly he has more about him than any state-league KPD.

On the second point, yes go heavy on draft 2013-2015 (Pelchen's plan said 2013-2016) and then grab whats out there. But given we snapped up the chance at Longer, and Luke Delaney... and others on this thread and another thread are pointing out how bare our KPD options are, us selecting Cameron Delaney would not have been a bad choice. I don't regret our selections in the first couple rounds of a development selection our staff must have liked, and then Saad potentially needed to be taken at 19 to fend off other clubs. But I would also not have minded us taking McKernan also.
There is a great deal of merit in finding role players along the way, whilst you draft gun kids then hopefully recruit elite talent in FA.

Cam Delaney isn't a KPD. He plays more like Sammy Gilbert or Andrew Mackie.

Oversized (and constantly injured) hbf. Dylan Roberton clone.

 

[tnk64]

Hi all, hope you don't mind an opposition poster intruding here.
I just wanted to say that I went to primary school with Jack Sinclair (he was the year level above me, although the school had composite classes) and that, if he's even a shadow of the sportsman I remember him to be, you've picked up an absolute bargain with him. He was one of those kids who was absolutely dominant in any sport he played: footy, cricket, basketball, soccer, athletics/cross country, even tiggy and four square. Back then he was so dominant that finding an appropriate handicap for whatever team he was on was always one of the main challenges during recess or lunch time. On one occasion I remember him playing basketball individually against me and about five or six of my best friends - all of us played outside of school, and a few (not me), were actually alright) - and he was still able to hold his own against us. Obviously, I couldn't have been a very good judge of footballing ability back then, and most of my school friends couldn't have been much better, but we always regarded him as the equal or superior of Luke McDonald and Jack Billings, with whom he played in the Kew Comets. To be honest, the idea of anyone being better than him at any sport, especially footy, was simply alien to us. One memorable game my school played against a much weaker side, and Jack must have had at least 30 touches and I think about 6 goals. What makes this performance especially memorable was that, his best friend (a boy named Jono Thornely, who was widely regarded as the second best footy player and all round sportsman in the school) had an even better game, kicking 8 goals if my memory serves me correctly - again, the idea of someone, even the player widely regarded as the second best in the school, having a better game than him, just didn't make sense. Jack was so legendary that everyone and their mother knew about his sporting prowess, literally - my mother earlier this year brought him up (remembering his first name and last name, a task she'd struggle with even for my best friends from primary school) as her archetypal example of a kid who was just dominant at everything. If you want something more quantifiable than that, then I present you with his cross country performances, in which he came 9th in the national U/10 final in 2005 (the results can be found here) - this in spite of no formal training for distance running.
Good luck with him, hopefully he has a long and successful career ahead of him.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

Hi all, hope you don't mind an opposition poster intruding here.
I just wanted to say that I went to primary school with Jack Sinclair (he was the year level above me, although the school had composite classes) and that, if he's even a shadow of the sportsman I remember him to be, you've picked up an absolute bargain with him. He was one of those kids who was absolutely dominant in any sport he played: footy, cricket, basketball, soccer, athletics/cross country, even tiggy and four square. Back then he was so dominant that finding an appropriate handicap for whatever team he was on was always one of the main challenges during recess or lunch time. On one occasion I remember him playing basketball individually against me and about five or six of my best friends - all of us played outside of school, and a few (not me), were actually alright) - and he was still able to hold his own against us. Obviously, I couldn't have been a very good judge of footballing ability back then, and most of my school friends couldn't have been much better, but we always regarded him as the equal or superior of Luke McDonald and Jack Billings, with whom he played in the Kew Comets. To be honest, the idea of anyone being better than him at any sport, especially footy, was simply alien to us. One memorable game my school played against a much weaker side, and Jack must have had at least 30 touches and I think about 6 goals. What makes this performance especially memorable was that, his best friend (a boy named Jono Thornely, who was widely regarded as the second best footy player and all round sportsman in the school) had an even better game, kicking 8 goals if my memory serves me correctly - again, the idea of someone, even the player widely regarded as the second best in the school, having a better game than him, just didn't make sense. Jack was so legendary that everyone and their mother knew about his sporting prowess, literally - my mother earlier this year brought him up (remembering his first name and last name, a task she'd struggle with even for my best friends from primary school) as her archetypal example of a kid who was just dominant at everything. If you want something more quantifiable than that, then I present you with his cross country performances, in which he came 9th in the national U/10 final in 2005 (the results can be found here) - this in spite of no formal training for distance running.
Good luck with him, hopefully he has a long and successful career ahead of him.

Thanks mate.

I notice Josh Kelly came second in that event. Given he's the same age as Jack and a running machine I assume that's Greater Wester Sydney's Josh Kelly?

 

[gringo2011]

Weve got 1 flag in over 140 yrs.
Most other clubs supporters laugh at us.
Children Saints supporters had to listen to disgusting chants from most of those clubs cheersquads about Milney for 10 yrs
The wealthy clubs who cheated & paid for most of their premierships have been smug as all f*** towards us for a long time.

I can honestly say i have never ever had the slightest inkling of "feeling" for any of the other clubs.
Ill be happy when we rise again and start kicking some arse .

It's a funny thing the whole VFL premierships counting. I watched some footage of early games of footy because my kid is doing an assignment on the origins of Aussie rules. It was just a game of randomly kicking the ball up in the air and then running around with no methodology. If I had a premiership from before WWI I would take it with a grain of salt. St Kilda were like an Ammos team bought in so they would make up numbers for the south east of Melbourne. You can really only judge the modern eras from the different stages. The professional era has been pretty good for us despite not getting a premiership. The 1980s were ugly but from the late 1980s onwards we have been pretty good. They probably realistically should have reloaded once we changed to the AFL. It's like if Port Adelaide claimed to be the most successful team in AFL because they dominated SANFL in the old days.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Billings came across as really shy and a little intimidated this year. Hopefully having his best mate at the club will see him come out of his shell a bit more.

 

[Keg on legs]

Was chatting with a workmate last night who had a part time coaching role at port melb this year.

He said we have done brilliantly in picking up JS. Said he's just a ripper of a kid. They had him down training at port through the year and he played 3 games with them. My mate reckons in his 3rd game he was in their best 3 players!

I pressed him about what it is about him that he rates so highly and he just said the complete package. He is keen to learn, listens and tries to improve himself at all opportunities and is just so easy to coach. He couldn't speak highly enough of him

Another astute choice by the sounds of it

 

[tnk64]

Thanks mate.

I notice Josh Kelly came second in that event. Given he's the same age as Jack and a running machine I assume that's Greater Wester Sydney's Josh Kelly?

I would assume so, although I never knew him so I can't confirm that. If it is him, his performance is really impressive given that Luke Matthews (3rd) would go on to set the Victorian record for the 1500m later that year in his age group.

 

[Keg on legs]

Gringo,

I often have the same thought. Pre salary cap etc the same clubs had a monopoly on the premierships bc they just bought the best players. Same as the epl these days where the same clubs finish on top year after year and everyone else fights for the scraps.

Imagine if they decided that they were gonna strike all pre salary cap premierships from the record books. Or at least have an * next to them! God, Eddie would have kittens!

Since the mid 90's ( a few troughs aside) we have actually been pretty good. Relatively regular finalists but just haven't been able to get over the line. Similar to geelong, we just need to get that one flag to get the monkey off our backs. Once that happens, the flood gates could open right up!

 

[Nutsngum]

It's a funny thing the whole VFL premierships counting. I watched some footage of early games of footy because my kid is doing an assignment on the origins of Aussie rules. It was just a game of randomly kicking the ball up in the air and then running around with no methodology. If I had a premiership from before WWI I would take it with a grain of salt. St Kilda were like an Ammos team bought in so they would make up numbers for the south east of Melbourne. You can really only judge the modern eras from the different stages. The professional era has been pretty good for us despite not getting a premiership. The 1980s were ugly but from the late 1980s onwards we have been pretty good. They probably realistically should have reloaded once we changed to the AFL. It's like if Port Adelaide claimed to be the most successful team in AFL because they dominated SANFL in the old days.

Half our wooden spoons come from this era. haha.

Honestly the fact that 80% of flags came from the eras of zoning means they're pretty much tainted to me. The 80's might have been a very different time for us had we got the zoning that was supposed to be ours but was given to the Hawks. Its really not a surprise that the Saints, South Melbourne and the Dogs really struggled whilst a few clubs had constant success over long periods of time.

But now we are way off topic