Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Lester Burnham]

LOL. I highly doubt that. Sorry.

There's a reason being a good person is synonymous with being a Christian.

Jesus T**ty ****ing Christ. Even the Pope doesn't believe that.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

 

[Cooldude]

Good question and I'm not sure. I'm interested to know what you take issue to - that "God" allows bad things to happen, or, that he claims to be loving and merciful? If he did not claim the latter would you still have a problem with the former?

If he did not claim the latter then people would find God to be really bad, sane people anyway

It's pretty obvious what I'm taking issue to, I am not gonna repeat myself, we've been through two posts of this.

Well if you don't believe in God, you certainly can claim it

If you believe in God and think free will is a perfect explanation for the atrocities of this world, yet somehow still think this God is loving, just and powerful, then I question your sanity.

I'm not a man of "the book", but I think humans operate within a reality that is influenced by both destiny and free will. I know that sounds like I'm sitting on the fence, but the best way I have heard somebody else describe my fence sitting views is: a painter can paint whatever he likes on a single canvas, in that, the painters creativity is 'free will' and the parameters of the canvas is 'destiny'.

So you are basically now saying some form of predestination exists, then you just wasted everyone's time with your free will rubbish. If as the bible say, some people are predestined to be "saved" and some aren't, then that's bloody terrible. The Christian God cannot be seen as good from the evidence presented, even in its own text

Even if it isn't the Christian God we're talking about here, it'd still make this God completely horrible amoral and psychopathic.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Anyone see "the unbelievers" which recently aired on History channel?

Daniel Dennett had some really interesting things to say in it. Without linking to the entire doco, I found this clip where he touches on similar themes about the internet breeding more free thinkers.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Hitler and Mussolini were baptised Catholics and were never excommunicated - a women who has an abortion or joined the communist party was more likely to be excommunicated (NB: admission against interest)

not my point, he hopes a brutal murdering scumbag goes to hell because he's an atheist.

all of hitler's crimes are forgivable apparently......... except being an atheist. whether hitler was an atheist or not is irrelevant.
apparently killing what was it? 3-4 million jews, christians, gypsies, gays, gased or worked to death it's all good. ordering babies murdered by having them wielded like cricket bats and swung against tree's just peachy. but not believing in god? BURN IN HELL YOU SCUM!

#Christianslove.

 

[madmug]

not my point, he hopes a brutal murdering scumbag goes to hell because he's an atheist.

all of hitler's crimes are forgivable apparently......... except being an atheist. whether hitler was an atheist or not is irrelevant.
apparently killing what was it? 3-4 million jews, christians, gypsies, gays, gased or worked to death it's all good. ordering babies murdered by having them wielded like cricket bats and swung against tree's just peachy. but not believing in god? BURN IN HELL YOU SCUM!

#Christianslove.

I guess that is balanced out by killing 20million communist/atheist Russians.
The lord moves in mysterious ways

 

[Empire_Persian]

If you believe in God and think free will is a perfect explanation for the atrocities of this world, yet somehow still think this God is loving, just and powerful, then I question your sanity.

If you believe "God" exists, is the source of all creation, is unknowable in essence and far beyond our capacity to comprehend, and he makes it known to us that he is love, mercy, kindness, etc, but we also see bad things in the world that he created, perhaps it isn't a contradiction but his purpose and intent. If you believe that he created us, what chance do we (the created) have to fully grasp any of this? Anyway, I can totally understand your argument as to why this notion is contradictory. I'm simply providing you with my personal thoughts on why it is not.

So you are basically now saying some form of predestination exists, then you just wasted everyone's time with your free will rubbish.

Destiny and free-will can co-exist. Refer to my analogy of the painters creativity (free-will) and the borders of the canvas (destiny).

If as the bible say, some people are predestined to be "saved" and some aren't, then that's bloody terrible.

I'm not a Christian so I'm not an authority on the Bible. I'm also wary of taking a literal interpretation of the Bible because it is littered with symbolism and allusions. But It could possibly mean that God has fore-knowledge of all that will come to pass, if you assume that he is all powerful. I really don't know...

The Christian God cannot be seen as good from the evidence presented, even in its own text

Question: if you realise God existed, but you are of the opinion that he is inherently bad for the reasons you have explained, how do you approach his teachings and instructions? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious to see how you would reconcile the two if you came to the conclusion that God existed.

 

[Partridge]

Anyone see "the unbelievers" which recently aired on History channel?

Daniel Dennett had some really interesting things to say in it. Without linking to the entire doco, I found this clip where he touches on similar themes about the internet breeding more free thinkers.

Yep. Was away but recorded it. Watched it last weekend. Wasn't bad. To be honest, it wasn't the best documentary of that type I've seen (I'm looking forward to seeing "An Honest Liar" on James Randi more), but it was still pretty good.

 

[Pie eyed]

The chap with the highland jig came close.

Sheilas, wogs and ****ters by Johnny Warren

He's very lucky he did not witnes the last Wanderers game.
****en 3 year old sooks the lot of them and the worst actors on earth, I'd be ashamed to support the sport.

 

[Baby Duck]

ITT: People trying to rationalize down God to their own level of understanding using faulted logical principles. Nothing 100% perfect has ever emerged from the minds of man as we cannot conceive the full ramifications of everything we do.

 

[skilts]

ITT: People trying to rationalize down God to their own level of understanding using faulted logical principles. Nothing 100% perfect has ever emerged from the minds of man as we cannot conceive the full ramifications of everything we do.

Do you think that this makes us lesser beings? If so, lesser than whom?

 

[Baby Duck]

Do you think that this makes us lesser beings? If so, lesser than whom?

Lesser only in that we struggle to reach our full potential. We are the highest of God's creation as we were made in His image.

 

[hardon]

ITT: People trying to rationalize down God to their own level of understanding using faulted logical principles.

didn't god try to explain himself by inspiring random dudes to write it down in terms we can understand?

so is the bible a good way to learn about the 'real' god?

did god invent capital letters and demand that "His" name be spelt with a capital? does he care in the slightest about our crazy conventions?

 

[skilts]

Lesser only in that we struggle to reach our full potential. We are the highest of God's creation as we were made in His image.

Is this to say that by having none of the senses, much less even a rudimentary manifestation of any form, flawed or otherwise, of logic, god is nevertheless a being operating at its fullest potential? God seems incapable of speech, the written word or human interaction. Might this not indicate that it is somewhat of a lesser being, and has displayed no potential at all since its conception? One of its much-touted qualities is its immutability. Surely this would allow little room for potential to be realised? FFS, god can't even build a house to live in, and is thus reduced to abject homelessness. A bit of a dud, really. When was the last time god was able to hold down a meaningful job?

What does god's image look like? Where and when have you seen it?

 

[Baby Duck]

didn't god try to explain himself by inspiring random dudes to write it down in terms we can understand?

so is the bible a good way to learn about the 'real' god?

did god invent capital letters and demand that "His" name be spelt with a capital? does he care in the slightest about our crazy conventions?

There are threads of Truth in every religion, however it appear that Christianity is the closest. The worship of one single creator God.

And yes, he endowed us with linguistic skills, something which sets us apart from all other life.

 

[Baby Duck]

Is this to say that by having none of the senses, much less even a rudimentary manifestation of any form, flawed or otherwise, of logic, god is nevertheless a being operating at its fullest potential? God seems incapable of speech, the written word or human interaction. Might this not indicate that it is somewhat of a lesser being, and has displayed no potential at all since its conception? One of its much-touted qualities is its immutability. Surely this would allow little room for potential to be realised? FFS, god can't even build a house to live in, and is thus reduced to abject homelessness. A bit of a dud, really. When was the last time god was able to hold down a meaningful job?

What does god's image look like? Where and when have you seen it?

He does operate at his fullest. He sustains our universe by his will alone.

Since the fall from grace (Eden, a higher state of consciousness) mans connection to God has been diminished. He still retains the ability to intervene wherever he chooses, as he does the right to judge His creation.

You started out with intelligent questions and trailed off into asking quite frankly ridiculous ones about God needing a house or being able to hold down a job...why?

Gods image is a difficult concept to explain, it's not just that we physically resemble our creator by any means. It's VAST in scope. I'd suggest you study Christian Mysticism to gain a better understanding. I myself by no means am a pinnacle of enlightenment, I am only 23 and have just begun my journey.

 

[RobbieGray17]

There are threads of Truth in every religion, however it appear that Christianity is the closest. The worship of one single creator God.

And yes, he endowed us with linguistic skills, something which sets us apart from all other life.

Lol, really; not biased at all eh!

So give me some listed points on why Christianity is closer than all the others. And why just closer? why not definitive?

There is zero evidence of an omnipotent god; Zero!

 

[hardon]

There are threads of Truth in every religion, however it appear that Christianity is the closest.

on this part i can certainly be accused of ignorance. i had no idea this could be determined. i am keenly awaiting your explanation.

And yes, he endowed us with linguistic skills, something which sets us apart from all other life.

however, on this part you haven't come close to answering my question. capitalisation wouldn't come under linguistics. is it not orthography? it's a convention which isn't even consistent between languages or over time periods. so it's just something we completely invented by ourselves. so i'd like to know why a god would even care whether or not some dude on the internet capitalised something that wasn't even his name? "Him" is not even His name. really, why do it?

 

[Cooldude]

If you believe "God" exists, is the source of all creation, is unknowable in essence and far beyond our capacity to comprehend, and he makes it known to us that he is love, mercy, kindness, etc, but we also see bad things in the world that he created, perhaps it isn't a contradiction but his purpose and intent. If you believe that he created us, what chance do we (the created) have to fully grasp any of this? Anyway, I can totally understand your argument as to why this notion is contradictory. I'm simply providing you with my personal thoughts on why it is not.

You gotta stop saying "if you believe God exist", or "realise that God exists", I am in this argument assuming that basis, it's obvious. I am arguing if God exists then why are things like this so forth and so forth. You gotta stop assuming my point of views are made with me trying to assume God doesn't exist

What purpose? What intent? I am sorry but seeing innocent people getting brutally killed while evil exist, yet still trying to argue God is love, merciful, kind, and that it all has an ultimate purpose, is the biggest load of crazy bullcrap. It's the biggest cop out to pretend just because God is a higher being beyond comprehension that it justifies crazy contradictory un-God-like stuff from happening.

Besides, if you are making that assumption (which btw is the Christian stance on God's image), then the bible would disagree with it. Many times God makes it very clear about how He wants humanity to act in certain moral ways, has smited whom He deemed as evil, and helped those He deemed good. He has intervened many times throughout the book, then why doesn't it happen now?

You cannot make a stance on how God is love mercy grace and kindness who according to Himself loves justice and hates sin, calling Himself all powerful and that nothing is impossible for Him. Then when so called sinners prosper while the good suffer, contrary to His own proclaims and teachings, then you do a 180 and say oh it's because of free will and because we can't comprehend God. It's all backpedaling vague rubbish to justify the contradictions. If your final way to justify the contradiction is to say oh but we can't comprehend it it's all beyond our own logic, then you shouldn't be trying to use logical argument to convince me right now, coz that would be the ultimate contradiction.

Destiny and free-will can co-exist. Refer to my analogy of the painters creativity (free-will) and the borders of the canvas (destiny).

Yet again you are missing the point, you cannot claim free will is the reason why evil's allow to prosper yet at the same time claim that predestination exists particularly for those who might or might not be saved. You don't get to have the cake and eat it, too. If free will's the reason why people are allowed to do evil, then why are some people predestined to be good or redeemed? Otherwise it would also be true for the reverse, some are predestined to be evil, but then you just claimed free will! If you don't see the massive contradiction yet again then I cannot help you.

I'm not a Christian so I'm not an authority on the Bible. I'm also wary of taking a literal interpretation of the Bible because it is littered with symbolism and allusions.

Then why have you been tryinig to argue for Christianity's stance on God and the image of God? This is getting way too crazy

The whole "but you can't take the bible literally" is yet another cop out, Christians use it as an excuse when the bible puts out something that contradicts their own stance. They basically interpret things that suit their selfish agendas literally from the bible and those that don't suit them, they use the "but you can't take it literally" cop out. At the end of the day you're just like a little kid picking out the veggies from your dish, choosing what you wanna eat and what you don't.

Question: if you realise God existed, but you are of the opinion that he is inherently bad for the reasons you have explained, how do you approach his teachings and instructions? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious to see how you would reconcile the two if you came to the conclusion that God existed.

Yet again you've got to stop pretending I don't think God exists, I am having this discussion on the basis that He does

Besides, why are you asking that question for me? I am not the one who's defending Christianity's stance teachings and instructions on God, it's something you should ask yourself.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Why is it that when you break it right down Christians always have to fall back on "prove our God doesn't exist"

If I was to say: "I'm immortal and I can fly.

Please provide evidence that I am not immortal and cannot fly."

Obviously you wouldn't believe me, you ask for proof to verify my claims.

So why is it that when it comes to faith in God is not the absence of proof enough to stop and realise hang on, theirs absolutely no way to verify this shit is real, theres no independent evidence and no reason to believe this dusty old book which says gang rape was a just punishment for a slave escaping her master.?

 

[Boston tiger]

I wonder if having evil in the world pushes us towards God.
Death certainly does .. Is death evil? At the very least it's a bugger.

 

[RobbieGray17]

I have to admit, as an atheist, I've seen people who believe in god manage to gain some extra strength in fighting adversity, or overcoming obstacles. Whether or not God is real, it does have an impact on peoples lives, be it a mental thing. Being an atheist however, there are times; like now where I wish I had that extra strength to overcome some of those obstacles. But if you have no belief, you can't fabricate it.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

my own arrogance has seen me through every obstacle.

 

[Pie eyed]

Why is it that when you break it right down Christians always have to fall back on "prove our God doesn't exist"

If I was to say: "I'm immortal and I can fly.

Please provide evidence that I am not immortal and cannot fly."

Obviously you wouldn't believe me, you ask for proof to verify my claims.

So why is it that when it comes to faith in God is not the absence of proof enough to stop and realise hang on, theirs absolutely no way to verify this shit is real, theres no independent evidence and no reason to believe this dusty old book which says gang rape was a just punishment for a slave escaping her master.?

I don't care about your flying immortality unless a heap of other fruitcakes use the claim to try an enforce ritual lobotomy and enemas on me and my family.
You can fly forever as far as I'm concerned, or until the universe collapses, whichever comes first.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I don't care about your flying immortality unless a heap of other fruitcakes use the claim to try an enforce ritual lobotomy and enemas on me and my family.
You can fly forever as far as I'm concerned, or until the universe collapses, whichever comes first.

and Bloods did sayeth "everyone who doth believe in my immortal flyingness will also gain immortality and fly.......... but only if thy wipe out those evil scum that don't believe in me and my immortality and flyingness, for I am purely good and righteous and as such nothing i do or say can possibly be evil only good. so go out and **** those campaigner's up" - the metaphoric part if anybody asks, 2:15

 

[Boston tiger]

I have to admit, as an atheist, I've seen people who believe in god manage to gain some extra strength in fighting adversity, or overcoming obstacles. Whether or not God is real, it does have an impact on peoples lives, be it a mental thing. Being an atheist however, there are times; like now where I wish I had that extra strength to overcome some of those obstacles. But if you have no belief, you can't fabricate it.

Jesus loves a doubting Thomas.