Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[John Dawh]

My wife recently heard my 8 year old son telling his mate that God was not real, just like Santa Claus. So today I gave him a quick quiz:

Son, when did dinosaurs walk he earth?
Millions of year ago, Dad
65 million years ago to be approximate. How long do Christians think the universe has been around?
Dunno Dad, how many
6000 years
Wow, that's not long. Are dinosaurs real?
Sure are. Bones have been discovered and scientific evidence says they walked the earth 65m years ago
So we know dinosaurs have been around a lot longer but some people think the universe is only 6000 years old
Yep
They must be idiots Dad.



As far as I know the Bible claims the universe is 6000 years old. We know dinosaurs were here 65.5m years ago so this is inaccurate. In fact it is so inaccurate that the Bible isn't even remotely close.

Some believe dinosaurs are a myth (we're talking some serious idiots here)
Some believe dinosaurs roamed the earth along with humans 6000 years ago (more idiots)
And some believe the Bible is incorrect. They pick and choose which bits to believe.

So what the problem with this?

If you believe the Bible literally you should be certified as insane
And if you pick and choose you MUST accept the Bible is a mere set of ethics, and given you believe some are relevant and others are not, then th whole think about God and omnipotence and immaculate design is complete bunk.

Yet so many want to have a bet each way. "Even though I reject parts of the Bible I still believe God to be true and bible to an ultimate source of guidance".

 

[pokerspiv]

AFAIK the bible doesn't make any claims as to how old the Earth is...that figure is a guess from the list of genealogy of the descendants of Adam and Eve who are mentioned in the bible.

 

[John Dawh]

AFAIK the bible doesn't make any claims as to how old the Earth is...that figure is a guess from the list of genealogy of the descendants of Adam and Eve who are mentioned in the bible.

Even if it's a guess it's a long way off.

Let's provide the benefit of the doubt and assume that Christians and their ilk believe God created the universe more than 230 million years ago. Some questions:

1. Why did God bother creating dinosaurs at all?
2. We have scientific proof dinosaurs existed between approximately 230 and 65 million years ago. But we have no proof humans existed back then. How come?
3. All the stories in the bible are far more recent. What happened between approximate 4000bc and 65,000,000bc? Lot of time went past undocumented. How come?
4. I recall a story called David and Goliath? Where is story about David and Tyrannosaurus Rex? No mention of dinosaurs in Bible.

Yet another massive discrepancy at the heart of Christianity.

 

[pokerspiv]

I think we can all agree that the stories in the bible are not true - at least the old testament anyway. I don't think anybody in this thread is arguing that they are.

 

[John Dawh]

I think we can all agree that the stories in the bible are not true - at least the old testament anyway. I don't think anybody in this thread is arguing that they are.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

I wasn't taking about whether the stories are true or not. I was highlighting the omission of any reference to dinosaurs.

It's not like God-fearers are saying: "Yeah sure, I know that there are holes all through the Bible but I just like some of the ethics it advocates". What God fearers do tend to say is:

1. I believe this because the Bible said so
2. God is true. I know it is true. I can feel him.
3. It's absolute nonsense that God may not exist

- You cannot use the Bible as a reference for truth if you don't believe all of it
- If you pick and choose which bits of the Bible to believe in or follow then it's only logical that you believe that some of it is flawed. And if some of the Bible is flawed then God is flawed.
- There was an Old Testament. The writings of God himself. Then this was amended to The New Testament. This is an admission that God was once wrong. Why do people thing he hasn't made any more mistakes? Even more important is it seems pretty bloody obvious to rational people that the amendment from Old to New Testament strongly suggests that the Bible, on both occasions, was written by mere mortals with no divine intervention. It's the sort of realisation of rational thought people have when they realise that Santa can't visit 5 billion homes in 9 hours of darkness, can't fit down a chimney, and reindeer don't fly.

It's really hard for me to not think anyone who believes in God is a complete idiot.

 

[pokerspiv]

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

I agree with your sentiments. I am an atheist and don't believe anything in the bible either.

I am just saying that if you want to argue against something, you should first find out what it actually says. If you try and argue that the bible says the world is 6000 years old then you are already weakening your argument since the bible does not contain any claims to how old the Earth is.

 

[RobbieGray17]

My wife recently heard my 8 year old son telling his mate that God was not real, just like Santa Claus. So today I gave him a quick quiz:

Son, when did dinosaurs walk he earth?
Millions of year ago, Dad
65 million years ago to be approximate. How long do Christians think the universe has been around?
Dunno Dad, how many
6000 years
Wow, that's not long. Are dinosaurs real?
Sure are. Bones have been discovered and scientific evidence says they walked the earth 65m years ago
So we know dinosaurs have been around a lot longer but some people think the universe is only 6000 years old
Yep
They must be idiots Dad.



As far as I know the Bible claims the universe is 6000 years old. We know dinosaurs were here 65.5m years ago so this is inaccurate. In fact it is so inaccurate that the Bible isn't even remotely close.

Some believe dinosaurs are a myth (we're talking some serious idiots here)
Some believe dinosaurs roamed the earth along with humans 6000 years ago (more idiots)
And some believe the Bible is incorrect. They pick and choose which bits to believe.

So what the problem with this?

If you believe the Bible literally you should be certified as insane
And if you pick and choose you MUST accept the Bible is a mere set of ethics, and given you believe some are relevant and others are not, then th whole think about God and omnipotence and immaculate design is complete bunk.

Yet so many want to have a bet each way. "Even though I reject parts of the Bible I still believe God to be true and bible to an ultimate source of guidance".

Yeah thats not really a fair argument. You need to do more research because DR Karl does not believe the earth is 6000 years old. and He is a christian.

 

[RobbieGray17]

I think we can all agree that the stories in the bible are not true - at least the old testament anyway. I don't think anybody in this thread is arguing that they are.

Metaphors maybe?

 

[Books]

I've sort of just had an epiphany. Why is it that christians; particularly those in america within the republican party and tea party DON'T support universal health care. Interestingly whenever I see these people on tv, they're middle to upper class citizens.

Didn't Jesus teach us the value of sharing and compassion?

Matthew 19:24?

How can these people even believe to know and practice the word of god if they can't even hold true to their values. Interestingly I worked with a guy who fits this mold perfectly.

Fair question.

Personally I think the teachings of Jesus were awesome, and should be listened to. Sadly, some of the people who claim to be his followers are the worst representatives you could get! But we shouldn't disregard the whole message because of the failures of people, same as we shouldn't judge a whole footy club by the antics of their most feral supporters.

 

[RobbieGray17]

The bible says that the path to heaven is generosity. There is no generosity involved in being forced to give someone money. The whole point was that you had to do it of your own free will.

Th

Fair question.

Personally I think the teachings of Jesus were awesome, and should be listened to. Sadly, some of the people who claim to be his followers are the worst representatives you could get! But we shouldn't disregard the whole message because of the failures of people, same as we shouldn't judge a whole footy club by the antics of their most feral supporters.

I mean you have a guy like Tony Abbott who believes its perfectly ok to send people homeless to the streets after being at university for 4 years and not being able to get a job after 6 months. The guy is a devout christian and totally out of touch with reality. How is that compassionate?

 

[RobbieGray17]

Jesus taught that you should be generous to the poor. He never said that you should support the government stealing from working people to give to the poor.

That is the literal interpretation of the bible that most Christians follow. And you will certainly find that Christians in America are by a massive margin the largest donors to charity.

Wouldn't it be better to support a system that prevented homelessness than to be charitable towards the homeless.

 

[pokerspiv]

Wouldn't it be better to support a system that prevented homelessness than to be charitable towards the homeless.

The system you support has demonstrably failed to prevent homelessness, so let's not pretend there is an obvious right way to do things and people who disagree with it are evil.

The fact of the matter is that people disagree on how best to help people. The people who argue against welfare do not argue against welfare because they are mean. They argue against it because they think there are better ways to help people.

 

[RobbieGray17]

The system you support has demonstrably failed to prevent homelessness, so let's not pretend there is an obvious right way to do things and people who disagree with it are evil.

The fact of the matter is that people disagree on how best to help people. The people who argue against welfare do not argue against welfare because they are mean. They argue against it because they think there are better ways to help people.

Would you agree that we have a pretty good system here? its not the best in the world, but its a damn site better than the s**t they get over in the states.

 

[pokerspiv]

The USA has the 2nd largest welfare system in the world, and the bottom 10% of people in the USA are better off than the bottom 10% of people in most other countries.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/07/worstall_us_welfare_system_second_biggest_world/

The irrational hatred and fear of the USA in this forum just never ends.

 

[RobbieGray17]

The USA has the 2nd largest welfare system in the world, and the bottom 10% of people in the USA are better off than the bottom 10% of people in most other countries.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/07/worstall_us_welfare_system_second_biggest_world/

The irrational hatred and fear of the USA in this forum just never ends.

16% vs 12 % poverty rate. that's a reasonable number of people, some 43 million. (US Census and Povertyusa.org). But this is probably the wrong thread.

 

[John Dawh]

I agree with your sentiments. I am an atheist and don't believe anything in the bible either.

I am just saying that if you want to argue against something, you should first find out what it actually says. If you try and argue that the bible says the world is 6000 years old then you are already weakening your argument since the bible does not contain any claims to how old the Earth is.

I didn't quote anyone in the thread, nor enter the current conversation. I just relayed something happened that was more relevant to this thread than starting a new thread. Threads can have multiple threads of conversation within.

 

[John Dawh]

Yeah thats not really a fair argument. You need to do more research because DR Karl does not believe the earth is 6000 years old. and He is a christian.

WTF are you on about?

Who is Dr Karl? Someone on this thread or do you mean Kruzeniki?
Why does one person who doesn't think the world is 6000 years old mean my argument is invalid? I don't believe I told my son "all christians think this". And I'm not about to confuse the discussion with a heap exception disclaimers.

Feel free to argue any of my points. What? You're an atheist? Why the **** are you arguing with me then?

 

[John Dawh]

Yeah thats not really a fair argument. You need to do more research because DR Karl does not believe the earth is 6000 years old. and He is a christian.

Furthermore,

Let's say the elusive Dr Karl is a christian and believes the earth is more than 6000 years old. For now, let's assume he believes in dinosaurs and agrees with the scientific evidence that dinosaurs existed between 65m and 230m years ago.

Well there's a discrepancy that needs to be explained. Dr Karl needs to explain how he reconciles this in his faith:

1. If he believes the earth is at least 230m years old then why is there no mention in the Bible? There's no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible. Why did "God" choose to with hold this?
2. Why did God invent dinosaurs in the first place? After all he was meant to have created the universe. Was he covering up a past failure?
3. More likely Dr Karl probably has his own bent on God and faith. What is it? Why does it differ from the Bible? Why does he believe some parts and not others?

God is (allegedly) a creator. The Bible is (allegedly) his word. So the whole thing about faith in God is "I believe in God's word and follow God's word". As soon as you start picking and choosing you're saying "I believe and follow some things and not others". While on the surface it seems more rational (because such people don't think extremely stupid stuff), it's actually not. it's an admission that God isn't the omnipotent being she is meant to be (just added that in for any feminists out there).

"I believe xxxx because the bible says so" just doesn't work when you're picking and choosing. There must be another rational into why someone believes certain things from the Bible. Perhaps these people are able to think for themselves but are yet to relieve themselves on the crutch that is fear, guilt, and religion.

 

[Power Raid]

Furthermore,

Let's say the elusive Dr Karl is a christian and believes the earth is more than 6000 years old. For now, let's assume he believes in dinosaurs and agrees with the scientific evidence that dinosaurs existed between 65m and 230m years ago.

Well there's a discrepancy that needs to be explained. Dr Karl needs to explain how he reconciles this in his faith:

1. If he believes the earth is at least 230m years old then why is there no mention in the Bible? There's no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible. Why did "God" choose to with hold this?
2. Why did God invent dinosaurs in the first place? After all he was meant to have created the universe. Was he covering up a past failure?
3. More likely Dr Karl probably has his own bent on God and faith. What is it? Why does it differ from the Bible? Why does he believe some parts and not others?

God is (allegedly) a creator. The Bible is (allegedly) his word. So the whole thing about faith in God is "I believe in God's word and follow God's word". As soon as you start picking and choosing you're saying "I believe and follow some things and not others". While on the surface it seems more rational (because such people don't think extremely stupid stuff), it's actually not. it's an admission that God isn't the omnipotent being she is meant to be (just added that in for any feminists out there).

"I believe xxxx because the bible says so" just doesn't work when you're picking and choosing. There must be another rational into why someone believes certain things from the Bible. Perhaps these people are able to think for themselves but are yet to relieve themselves on the crutch that is fear, guilt, and religion.

I'm not a christian but you are miles off the mark focusing on incorrect details in the bible. The bible was written in a time where the majority of people couldn't read or write and was a combination of story telling, fact and fiction to help people make sense of the world.

 

[pokerspiv]

It's very easy to criticise people who believe that Genesis is the literal truth. Most Christians don't actually believe that though. It's much harder to argue against the idea of god as the creator of the universe (i.e. the belief that god caused the big bang and everything since happened as science says) - essentially the deist position. There are good atheist vs Christian debates on Youtube on the subject featuring Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins etc.

 

[John Dawh]

I'm not a christian but you are miles off the mark focusing on incorrect details in the bible. The bible was written in a time where the majority of people couldn't read or write and was a combination of story telling, fact and fiction to help people make sense of the world.

I don't think you're listening to what I'm saying.

I too think that's what the Bible is. But a lot of people think it's the word of God. In fact I'd suggest the majority of practicing Christians believe it to be the word of God. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but numerous times on this very board, people have claimed as such.

And just to further clarify, I'm not talking about Noah, parting of the seas etc. I'm talking about antiquated things in the Bible that aren't relevant to today such as the view on homosexuality etc.

And when we talk about Jesus turning bread and water to feed thousands? Pretty sure most Christians think that one happened.

 

[Power Raid]

I don't think you're listening to what I'm saying.

I too think that's what the Bible is. But a lot of people think it's the word of God. In fact I'd suggest the majority of practicing Christians believe it to be the word of God. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but numerous times on this very board, people have claimed as such.

And just to further clarify, I'm not talking about Noah, parting of the seas etc. I'm talking about antiquated things in the Bible that aren't relevant to today such as the view on homosexuality etc.

And when we talk about Jesus turning bread and water to feed thousands? Pretty sure most Christians think that one happened.

It is a shame all religions try and extend further than just being a good way for local communities to come together and help each other.

on the gay topic, I pro gay marriage simply because we have an anti-discrimination act but our own government feels its OK to discriminate. What horrifies me more than the anti gay marriage movement is when religious organisations make the claim AIDS, or some other negative event, is gods way of punishing those who don't live by their made up beliefs.

The truth is these same people must live in fear, or denial, as none of us are perfect (as per their ideals).

 

[John Dawh]

It is a shame all religions try and extend further than just being a good way for local communities to come together and help each other.

on the gay topic, I pro gay marriage simply because we have an anti-discrimination act but our own government feels its OK to discriminate. What horrifies me more than the anti gay marriage movement is when religious organisations make the claim AIDS, or some other negative event, is gods way of punishing those who don't live by their made up beliefs.

The truth is these same people must live in fear, or denial, as none of us are perfect (as per their ideals).

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Religion is about fear and guilt. There is no other reason to practice religion.

I went to a wedding on the weekend. In the groom party were:

Groom - agnostic/atheist
Best man - scientologist
Groom's gay bro - atheist and doesn't respect anything that treats him as a second class citizen. But he's very spiritual
Another groomsman - agnostic/atheist but also spiritual
Me - agnostic/atheist but not spiritual

So we had a discussion on spirituality.

I'm have a reasonably rigid set of rules. On one hand I'm open minded but on the other don't suffer fools. I don't specifically believe in karma but I do go by the rule to not do to other what I wouldn't like done to myself. I see this as a cut and dried "that really shits me so I shouldn't do it to others" or "I can't really complain when that happens to me when I do it to others". On one hand I'm honest and I don't lie to people. I'm a pretty up front guy because that's what I want in return. On the other hand I really don't give a flying fruitbat if someone bad mouths me behind my back.

Interesting in other people's take on this sort of stuff:

People who are spiritual seem to believe it's all about karma and zen and s**t like that. Same stuff and rules etc, just different way of interpreting it.
Then religious people like "I'm a little bitch and have to have a book to tell me this s**t". "Then I'll let them convince me that stupid s**t like homosexuality is wrong".

 

[Power Raid]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Religion is about fear and guilt. There is no other reason to practice religion.

I went to a wedding on the weekend. In the groom party were:

Groom - agnostic/atheist
Best man - scientologist
Groom's gay bro - atheist and doesn't respect anything that treats him as a second class citizen. But he's very spiritual
Another groomsman - agnostic/atheist but also spiritual
Me - agnostic/atheist but not spiritual

So we had a discussion on spirituality.

I'm have a reasonably rigid set of rules. On one hand I'm open minded but on the other don't suffer fools. I don't specifically believe in karma but I do go by the rule to not do to other what I wouldn't like done to myself. I see this as a cut and dried "that really shits me so I shouldn't do it to others" or "I can't really complain when that happens to me when I do it to others". On one hand I'm honest and I don't lie to people. I'm a pretty up front guy because that's what I want in return. On the other hand I really don't give a flying fruitbat if someone bad mouths me behind my back.

Interesting in other people's take on this sort of stuff:

People who are spiritual seem to believe it's all about karma and zen and s**t like that. Same stuff and rules etc, just different way of interpreting it.
Then religious people like "I'm a little bitch and have to have a book to tell me this s**t". "Then I'll let them convince me that stupid s**t like homosexuality is wrong".

It also suggests what motivates most people. It is a shame more aren't motivated by success, achievement or positive outcomes.

 

[John Dawh]

It also suggests what motivates most people. It is a shame more aren't motivated by success, achievement or positive outcomes.

I think these are different/separate to your inner being and inner health.

I rarely have doubts, fear or guilt. I seem to have a wider set of boundaries than most. I'm also able to kerb my guilt because I don't do s**t that makes me feel guilty (same as what religious types do but they need that structure to achieve this). Then there's all the stuff about "knowing". Whilst I don't think there is a God, I don't know and don't care. I also don't know or care what happens when we die.

It's just me and my ethics that allow me be at peace with myself (and even then I spend little time thinking about this). I don't need my hand held. Religious people need their hand held.