2nds VFL Round 15 - Sandringham V Geelong, Trevor Barker Beach Oval, 2:00PM Sunday 20 July

[MC Extra Dollop]

Ok, just for the few.

His stats are up, .9. Let's not get carried away with that. Secondly, I said consistency.

Last year, he had only one game below 15 possessions, whilst this year he has a few, plus more around that mark. Proving that the difference between the very good and the mediocre is there.

Goals this year is a misnomer, he kicked 16 behinds last year.

Duncan, for a player of his quality, had a pretty bad case of the yips last year. This year, he's back to being a pretty clinical finisher. That's not a misnomer; it's a clear deficiency from his game in 2013 that he has rectified this year, to his credit. Regularly hitting the scoreboard is usually what turns a good midfielder into a great midfielder and a great midfielder into one of the top two or three in the game. Just ask Joel Selwood.

I mean, would you call Lindsay Thomas' goalkicking from 2009-11, compared to 2012-current a 'misnomer'? If he'd kept missing far more shots than he was converting, he would have been out of the league by now. Instead, he fixed it and he's become one of the most consistent small forwards in the league.

His median possessions in 2013 was 22. This year, it's 21. He had eight games in 2013 where he had zero, or one tackle. In 2014, he's had one. Combined with his goal output, I'm taking his 2014 season, every day of the week.

 

[Partridge]

Ok, just for the few.

His stats are up, .9. Let's not get carried away with that. Secondly, I said consistency.

Last year, he had only one game below 15 possessions, whilst this year he has a few, plus more around that mark. Proving that the difference between the very good and the mediocre is there.

Goals this year is a misnomer, he kicked 16 behinds last year.

The point I made, is that when we have little output from Selwood and Sj, Duncan is one of those that needs to fire. When he struggles with consistency, we struggle also.

Funny though, it's not the games that we lose that he struggles with, it's those mediocre as a team.

Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. I just think for whatever reason Duncan has become a target of perceived criticism. Personally I think he's our best and most consistent player under 100 games EASILY. And goals are never a misnomer; you don't kick 16 goals as a midfielder in 17 games by accident. If it's so easy to do how come others haven't done it?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Funny though, it's not the games that we lose that he struggles with, it's those mediocre as a team.

Sorry, I would have thought that was a good thing that he's apparently the opposite of a flat track bully?

 

[catempire]

Given Lincoln's game yesterday, he sounds like the replacement for Mots if Mots gets a MRP "holiday" following the incident with Dylan Shields.

50m penalty but not a reportable incident.

 

[TheJimmyCartel]

Good to see Lang had a lazy 24 disposals, 6 marks and 12 clearances in the midfield. Good signs!

 

[WaxiesDargle]

Match Review on the GFC website said Lang had 24 disposals, 6 marks and 12 clearances, 12!
I have been waiting to see him play a full game predominantly in the midfield. Always thought once this guy starts finding the ball a bit more and moves into a more midfield role he is going to be a hell of a player. Looks like a Bundy type who can win his own ball in the clearances but can also break the lines and use it on the outside. Not to mention his tackling and defensive pressure is top notch. I know it's only one game and they flogged Sandy but hopefully it's a sign of things to come!

 

[Partridge]

Sorry, I would have thought that was a good thing that he's apparently the opposite of a flat track bully?

When we've got guys like Murdoch and Caddy in the team the last player I'd be thinking was inconsistent would be Mitch Duncan. Perception is far better than reality it seems.

 

[catempire]

Good to see Lang had a lazy 24 disposals, 6 marks and 12 clearances in the midfield. Good signs!

Match Review on the GFC website said Lang had 24 disposals, 6 marks and 12 clearances, 12!

I love seeing double figure oinkage. He and Jansen might just be the answer to our clearance prayers.

 

[Partridge]

I love seeing double figure oinkage. He and Jansen might just be the answer to our clearance prayers.

Neither are going to solve them this year nor probably next. It will take time. Time for those two players - IF they make it - and the senior guys to get more games under their belt and more consistency. It is mindboggling how impatient we are now, and also how our memories seem to be erased every Monday morning.

 

[vinum coupe]

Neither are going to solve them this year nor probably next. It will take time. Time for those two players - IF they make it - and the senior guys to get more games under their belt and more consistency. It is mindboggling how impatient we are now, and also how our memories seem to be erased every Monday morning.

I think that's because a lot of us can hear a gold coast steam train already.
Unrealistic to expect 20 gamers to win games for us? Yes. Not going to stop me hoping for it though.

 

[Partridge]

I think that's because a lot of us can hear a gold coast steam train already.
Unrealistic to expect 20 gamers to win games for us? Yes. Not going to stop me hoping for it though.

Disagree totally. Watch what happens in the next 5 games without Ablett there. For all the hype they're probably going to miss the finals.......again......and they aren't a superpower yet.

 

[catempire]

Neither are going to solve them this year nor probably next. It will take time. Time for those two players - IF they make it - and the senior guys to get more games under their belt and more consistency. It is mindboggling how impatient we are now, and also how our memories seem to be erased every Monday morning.

I'm not at all impatient. I'm eager to see them tested at AFL level though. I will be enjoying watching their development as well as, hopefully, them performing as good AFL players in years to come.

 

[TheJimmyCartel]

I think that's because a lot of us can hear a gold coast steam train already.
Unrealistic to expect 20 gamers to win games for us? Yes. Not going to stop me hoping for it though.

A few of the Doggies youngsters are showing just that! Look to be building a very impressive young unit.

 

[Partridge]

I'm not at all impatient. I'm eager to see them tested at AFL level though. I will be enjoying watching their development as well as, hopefully, them performing as good AFL players in years to come.

Absolutely. That's entirely reasonable. The more games the better. But we need to take a deep breath and not freak out when they don't win 5 clearances a game each after 1 season. It's just not going to happen.

Here's an interesting metric. These are 5 of our absolutely decorated stars, with the first year they averaged 20+ touches a season, and how many games they had played to that point:

Corey - 2005 - 83 games
Chapman - 2006 - 95 games
Kelly - 2008 - 108 games
Bartel - 2004 - 24 games
Ablett - 2007 - 100 games

So it's pretty clear when we flippantly expect 25 touches a week (as in every week) for Horlin-Smith or Guthrie or especially Caddy, it's close to ludicrous. It takes time. Bartel is the real outlier and perhaps Horlin-Smith could be an equivalent. It strongly suggests real consistent output comes only after 3-4 seasons on average. I think it needs to be borne in mind when placing pretty high expectations on very inexperienced players.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I love seeing double figure oinkage. He and Jansen might just be the answer to our clearance prayers.

I love that word: "oinkage", catempire! Did you just make it up?

 

[Teriyakicat]

Neither are going to solve them this year nor probably next. It will take time. Time for those two players - IF they make it - and the senior guys to get more games under their belt and more consistency. It is mindboggling how impatient we are now, and also how our memories seem to be erased every Monday morning.

That's true Partridge. Those numbers were racked up against a VFL team which lost two players to injury early and just couldn't keep up with the Cats. However the sooner these boys get more of a run in the seniors, the better. I'm not advocating a permanent shift there because, like you, I believe they still have a long way to go with their development and it would be detrimental to that development if they lose confidence after a bad game against the top notch AFL players but games as sub now and then, or against weaker opposition, would've been great.
I think that ship has sailed, though, for 2014 as we aim for a top 2 place. Had we less hope there, or a more certain grip on top 2/4, no doubt the boys would be brought in more often.

 

[Cyclone Larry]

McCarthy's 3rd qtr was sublime, really looks a step above the VFL and his confidence in his skills shows. Lang grew as the game went on, linked up well through the middle and pushed forward well particularly in the 4th.
Couldn't see sweet FA in the 2nd qtr due to the fog.
Sidenotes: Parking inspectors were fining people parking in the next door car park left right and centre, utter dogs. 'Teach' looked like he was all on his Pat Malone doing his chants, could still hear him clear as a bell though.
Girl in the tuck shop wasn't a bad sort either

 

[Turbocat]

Absolutely. That's entirely reasonable. The more games the better. But we need to take a deep breath and not freak out when they don't win 5 clearances a game each after 1 season. It's just not going to happen.

Here's an interesting metric. These are 5 of our absolutely decorated stars, with the first year they averaged 20+ touches a season, and how many games they had played to that point:

Corey - 2005 - 83 games
Chapman - 2006 - 95 games
Kelly - 2008 - 108 games
Bartel - 2004 - 24 games
Ablett - 2007 - 100 games

So it's pretty clear when we flippantly expect 25 touches a week (as in every week) for Horlin-Smith or Guthrie or especially Caddy, it's close to ludicrous. It takes time. Bartel is the real outlier and perhaps Horlin-Smith could be an equivalent. It strongly suggests real consistent output comes only after 3-4 seasons on average. I think it needs to be borne in mind when placing pretty high expectations on very inexperienced players.

You make a good point , actually several. I agree players quite often do not reach "their" bandwidth of best , consistent performance till that 75-100 games and several preseasons. I think this is fact and can not be denied.

But I think there are other facts as well that make comparisons to that group a little flawed , a little different now than then. Time spent in the VFL , playing in a successful side/ at a successful club , our development now is better than then....... on and on. No comparison is perfect. Its just a guide , and when a player is ready to play , we must try to decide if we want him or not. If we do then we must find a way , find a spot and play him. Although only one year here Lang and Jansen both look like they could be playing at the higher level.

For them you a right there is no rush but it doesn't take to long to be a stamped player (Schroder) .Basically I think it gets down to is the player ready to be played at the higher level. Sure they will probably not bring that stats as you rightly show , but their development path to those stats is probably playing at the higher level. When someone is ready to play , is it really in their interest to keep them at a lesser level?

As I said in another post , there is arguably 5-10 players who could play AFL , which depends on personal POV. I like Lang and JJ. CE calls it oink factor. I look at our steadiness in our mature players delivering us wins , but leaving us doubting their maximum output. I think we need to risk some steadiness for the verve of youth. Whether its McCarthy , Bews , Jansen , Lang , Thurlow or even Schroder (the slightly older forgotten one), their performance will be up down...they will not average the 20 but energy youth can bring is its own reward ,now and in time. The quicker we gets games into them , the quicker we get to the numbers you mention.

As much as I have loved the guys like Jimmy, Kelly, Boris and to lesser extent Lonergan atm these guys are being played at the cost of games to younger ones who are ready. To a degree that same could be said about Rivers and Hmac The question I ask is their performance justifying that?
If they are... great , but I dont think think its as obvious as it was 12 months ago , (Rivers excluded).

By the way....
I like Caddy , and to a point I can see why we are carrying him . (just as we have been discussing games etc) but could anyone say his form deserves selection over Schroders game? I think he is an example of perhaps waiting too long with a good opportunity.

 

[catempire]

Absolutely. That's entirely reasonable. The more games the better. But we need to take a deep breath and not freak out when they don't win 5 clearances a game each after 1 season. It's just not going to happen.

Here's an interesting metric. These are 5 of our absolutely decorated stars, with the first year they averaged 20+ touches a season, and how many games they had played to that point:

Corey - 2005 - 83 games
Chapman - 2006 - 95 games
Kelly - 2008 - 108 games
Bartel - 2004 - 24 games
Ablett - 2007 - 100 games

So it's pretty clear when we flippantly expect 25 touches a week (as in every week) for Horlin-Smith or Guthrie or especially Caddy, it's close to ludicrous. It takes time. Bartel is the real outlier and perhaps Horlin-Smith could be an equivalent. It strongly suggests real consistent output comes only after 3-4 seasons on average. I think it needs to be borne in mind when placing pretty high expectations on very inexperienced players.

I know what you're saying. I do think it's unfair if certain people are expecting young players to come in and make Selwood-like impacts.

What I am referring to when I highlight Jansen (and to a lesser extent, Lang) is that they appear to have those same natural ball-winning traits that Bartel and Corey had when they first arrived at the club. Of course, we can only dream at this stage that they turn out anything like those champions, but what I am looking for at this time is young players who have the traits that we appear to be lacking. Hats not to say other young players are without merit of themselves - Caddy, Christensen, even Murdoch - all bring their own strengths, but I think even as juniors they were not the prolific ball winning types I am really hoping to uncover in the next few years. Prolific AFL midfielders tend to have been the same at junior level in my view.

 

[Cyclone Larry]

were you at the game?
how was his attack at the footy in marking contests?

I know he's relatively shorter compared to most but he has a terrific vertical, almost Jamie Elliot-like if he gets back to full fitness so he could be a hard match-up at the top level.

Yeah I was there. Agree about his marking, took a great grab in the 3rd on the forward flank IIRC. Got the second lift and popped into the air, sunk the goal after too.

 

[Lana]

By the way....
I like Caddy , and to a point I can see why we are carrying him . (just as we have been discussing games etc) but could anyone say his form deserves selection over Schroders game? I think he is an example of perhaps waiting too long with a good opportunity.

Match Committee probably see them as having a similar playing style and just choose to pump games into the player they see as the more likely prospect. Though it's not necessarily the end for Schroder, in the next couple of years there will be more openings in our midfield as Johnson and Stokes get older and move to the Flanks like Kelly and Bartel have done so. We only drafted 1 midfielder in the 2011-12 period(Hartman) which creates a small gap of opportunity for him to grasp before our 2013 draft has time to mature. Unless he is not getting pick for a specific reason that the general public could be aware of(injury, specific flaw in his "game", is a tool off field).

 

[dazbroncos]

Absolutely. That's entirely reasonable. The more games the better. But we need to take a deep breath and not freak out when they don't win 5 clearances a game each after 1 season. It's just not going to happen.

Here's an interesting metric. These are 5 of our absolutely decorated stars, with the first year they averaged 20+ touches a season, and how many games they had played to that point:

Corey - 2005 - 83 games
Chapman - 2006 - 95 games
Kelly - 2008 - 108 games
Bartel - 2004 - 24 games
Ablett - 2007 - 100 games

So it's pretty clear when we flippantly expect 25 touches a week (as in every week) for Horlin-Smith or Guthrie or especially Caddy, it's close to ludicrous. It takes time. Bartel is the real outlier and perhaps Horlin-Smith could be an equivalent. It strongly suggests real consistent output comes only after 3-4 seasons on average. I think it needs to be borne in mind when placing pretty high expectations on very inexperienced players.

My parents beat this into me. All good things come to those who wait. Seems like about 75 games on average is about the wait we need.
The under 50 games expectations that are placed on our kids by some in general is extraordinary. They will come in time.

Go Catters

 

[vinum coupe]

My parents beat this into me. All good things come to those who wait. Seems like about 75 games on average is about the wait we need.
The under 50 games expectations that are placed on our kids by some in general is extraordinary. They will come in time.

Go Catters

But that's the thing. We can't wait.

Scott knows it. Geelong knows it.
It's why they put the academy together. It's why Lappin was taken away from the assistant coaches role.

Partidge is correct that Gold Coast aren't a super power yet.
But for every game we put into kids, guess what? They are too.
And 'they' are 20 first round draft picks. They only need 10 of them to reach potential.

So for us, it's not just about games.
It's about superior talent identification.
Superior teaching techniques.
Superior training methods.
Superior praying and crossing the fingers abilities.

I said it at the start of the year. Our biggest challenge is in choosing the correct kids to put 80% of the effort into.
The other kids will get 20% of the effort. They have to work like hell and do it on their own.

I just hope Schroder and Thurlow aren't in the 20% group.

 

[catempire]

What we have that the Gold Coast don't is Premiership and finals experience. Can't underestimate the value of our young players having the benefit of learning off he best in the business.

 

[Turbocat]

But that's the thing. We can't wait.

Scott knows it. Geelong knows it.
It's why they put the academy together. It's why Lappin was taken away from the assistant coaches role.

Partidge is correct that Gold Coast aren't a super power yet.
But for every game we put into kids, guess what? They are too.
And 'they' are 20 first round draft picks. They only need 10 of them to reach potential.

So for us, it's not just about games.
It's about superior talent identification.
Superior teaching techniques.
Superior training methods.
Superior praying and crossing the fingers abilities.

I said it at the start of the year. Our biggest challenge is in choosing the correct kids to put 80% of the effort into.
The other kids will get 20% of the effort. They have to work like hell and do it on their own.

I just hope Schroder and Thurlow aren't in the 20% group.

Think one is.

and are getting a swarmi in to our coaching group. Orange gowns and little symbols ?