When to count AFL premierships, and NOT AFL/VFL ones?

[Sloth]

I think eventually we are going to stop counting the VFL premierships won by clubs, and simply say that they have won x amount of AFL premierships.

Already people say stuff like, "yeah we have won 10 premierships, but most of them were back in the VFL".

I reckon give it 15 years, and a lot of people will only be quoting AFL premierships, and saying the Bulldogs have never won an AFL premiership.

Funny you didn't say this when Geelong were sitting on 0 AFL Premierships

 

[big78sam]

Of course the VFL's been the outright best. That's why top interstate players came to Victoria back then, to play in the best competition. Some simply couldn't make it went back to their states and starred because the "lower" standard . Remember, interstate teams wanted to and joined VFL competition because it was THE standard, the VFL didn't join there's. .

Players went to the VFL because of the money. As a result of having more money they could afford to buy the better players (just like Carlton, although it hasn't helped them in recent times!). Granted the VFL probably had a higher standard on average over the years becuase they could buy the best players but players went their primarily for the money not because they perceived the VFL was "better".

 

[Dan26]

People can be so mind-boggingly stupid it defies belief.

The quality of the football played, and the standard of the competiton has NOTHING to do with the historical record keeping. Nothing. Zip. Zilch.

All that matters, is that it is the SAME COMPETITION. i.e no new league was formed, therefore the records are continuous.

Take Carlton as an example. Yes, 13 of their 16 flags were won when it was only a Victorian competition. The last three (1982, 1987 and 1995) were won when teams from outside Victorian were part of the league.

All that matters is that they have been premiers of that one continous competiton under it's various standards of quality, a total of 16 times.

If the AFL introduces a NZ team next year and the competiton changes names to the IFL, does that make it a brand new league? Now an "international" one? Of course not. It's still the same 113 year old league. All competitons expand and add new teams.

Carlton and Essendon have won 16 premierships in the current league. Thats a fact. It cannot be disputed and there is NO counter argument. What the standard of the competiton was back in 1897 or 1925 has nothing to do with the argument. All that matters, the only ting that matters is that it's the one continuous competiton with no breakway legaue, so all records count from 1987 onwards.

By the way, do SANFL records count? YES!! They count in the histroy of that league.

Do, VFA premierships count? YES!! They count in the history of that league

They just don't count in the history of the competiton that started in 1897 that now cals itself the AFL.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? Are some people deliberatley being stupid just to argue something they know they can't argue? What's so hard about understanding this blantatly simple concept???? Tell me.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Players went to the VFL because of the money. As a result of having more money they could afford to buy the better players (just like Carlton, although it hasn't helped them in recent times!). Granted the VFL probably had a higher standard on average over the years becuase they could buy the best players but players went their primarily for the money not because they perceived the VFL was "better".

It doesn't matter why they went there. The fact was the VFL had the money to entice players, got the crowds to provide the money and with the improving quality got the media attention. Granted the money thing spiralled out of control as we ended up with bush kids asking big dollars to transfer. This is all lead to the need to have a commission to oversee the competition and cut back on costs.

The VFL leveraged themselves, almost into trouble, but that doesn't change the fact that they took the risks and a national competition was born.

 

[Sloth]

Saying that Collingwood winning 4 in a row when they did is better than Brisbane winning 3 in a row when they did is silly. It's better in a number on paper only.

I'll take Collingwood's 4 in a row over Brisbane's 3 in a row any day.

 

[Jay-Z]

I'll take Collingwood's 4 in a row over Brisbane's 3 in a row any day.

Gee that's a big surprise seeing as you're a Collingwood supporter

Brisbane's 3-peat >>>>>>> Collingwood's 4-peat

 

[Del80659]

Yeah it's a pretty mindblowing thread. There is absolutely nothing difficult about understanding this fact: Hawthorn FC have won ten flags. The Victorian teams that stayed in the same league that became the AFL will never have a lesser amount of flags than what they have. It's the same damn league. Port Adelaide are the only club to be elevated from a state league to the national league and therefore carried across their tradition in premiership cups (still state league cups, no Port supporter claims them as national cups....). Also easy to comprehend.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yeah it's a pretty mindblowing thread. There is absolutely nothing difficult about understanding this fact: Hawthorn FC have won ten flags. The Victorian teams that stayed in the same league that became the AFL will never have a lesser amount of flags than what they have. It's the same damn league. Port Adelaide are the only club to be elevated from a state league to the national league and therefore carried across their tradition in premiership cups (still state league cups, no Port supporter claims them as national cups....). Also easy to comprehend.

Absolutely. Only difference between the two is in the recording. One gets a / as it was the same competition, the other gets an & as they are in addition to. We still know what Port did before but unfortunately for them they had to leave their competition to be part of a national comp whereas VFL teams were lucky enough to stay put.

 

[Sloth]

Port Adelaide are the only club to be elevated from a state league to the national league and therefore carried across their tradition in premiership cups

Have all the tradition you want, as long as you're not suggesting that cups won in a totally different league somehow count toward your AFL/VFL tally.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Of course it was an absurd statement, but it was you who said that Geelong were the exception to the rule that the game was now truly national.

No I didn't, you're English comprehension just isn't too good.

 

[ghostbat12]

personally, couldnt care less as no. of premierships doesnt make anyone think the club with more premierships is a "better" club. but aussie rules turned professional when AFL was established (or around that time). that makes it in itself different to VFL.

but vic clubs were built on VFL and their premiership so cant see that ever being ingored. subconsciously over time VFL cups will have lesser meaning as arguement will turn to "well this club hasnt won an AFL premiership in say 40 years". AFL is still very young to be used as such.

however, ports SANFL premierships are not and never will be in same league as what VFL premierships are. noone recognises ports SANFL premierships apart from port people. only kidding themselves.

 

[speedpeck23]

History is History is History...everything counts..AFL VFL SANFL WAFL TFL VFA etc etc etc...you can't change it...its about the process..the development of the game....it will continue to develop...you can't exactly say when it started .... you can't say where it will finish....just enjoy your part in it ...

 

[PortBrillance]

Have all the tradition you want, as long as you're not suggesting that cups won in a totally different league somehow count toward your AFL/VFL tally.

Can you read? No one is saying that our premierships count to the VFL/AFL tally (besides 04). Not one Port person will say that they count to the tally. They count in our tally. Understand now?

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Does this mean that Geelong's VFL side which is essentially in a rebranded VFA now claim the 7 premierships that Geelong won in that competition in the 19th century or can only Geelong's AFL side claim those 7?

 

[Sloth]

Does this mean that Geelong's VFL side which is essentially in a rebranded VFA now claim the 7 premierships that Geelong won in that competition in the 19th century or can only Geelong's AFL side claim those 7?

Do you think if Sandringham or Williamstown joined the AFL they would be allowed to bring their VFA cups with them? I don't think so.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

One thing that gets on my goat on this forum are the school kiddies and other assorted ignorants with absolutely no regard or appreciation for what happened in bygone eras. You keep reading that today's players are the "best evvah", or the latest premiership team is the greatest of all time, etc. Makes me want to throw up.

Here's something for you to consider. If it wasn't for those VFL premierships all those years ago, there would be no AFL premierships today, because there would be no competition. So next time you start sprouting off about VFL flags "not counting", thing again .. or better still, think for the first time in your life.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

they should just be counting afl premierships right now, so freo cant be the only ones without a flag

 

[Papa G]

As the Old Dark Navy's said before, to the winner goes the spoils. Winners get write the history or at least keep their history. The National League was just set up wrong, that is all, but you can't change history unless you really want to, the number fell in favour of the VFL and so their legacy and a few of their legacy clubs got to survive where as others more deserving did not.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Do you think if Sandringham or Williamstown joined the AFL they would be allowed to bring their VFA cups with them? I don't think so.

Well, no, but that's not what I was asking.

Geelong was originally in the VFA, whilst in the VFA Geelong won 7 premierships,they were then one of the 8 breakaways that formed the original VFL.
The VFA was re-badged as the VFL in whatever year it was. Geelong has a reserves side that plays in the VFL. Does that mean that they can claim the 7 VFA premierships since it's essentially the same comp just with a different name?
If that is the case then either Geelong has 9 VFA premierships or they have 7 VFA premierships and 2 VFL premierships or they have 7 VFA premierships, 8 VFL premierships (6 by the senior team in the then VFL and one by the reserves in the revamped VFA in 2002 and 2007) and 2 AFL premierships.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

THe VFA was NEVER rebadged as the VFL.

(Ok it was about 10 years ago but thats a different story)

100 years ago, some teams BROKE AWAY from the VFA and formed a new competition. The VFL was a new comp.

Had that happened with the VFL 15 years ago and a new competition been formed, then I'd agree that records would start from that date. But that didnt happen.

 

[krusden]

One thing that gets on my goat on this forum are the school kiddies and other assorted ignorants with absolutely no regard or appreciation for what happened in bygone eras. You keep reading that today's players are the "best evvah", or the latest premiership team is the greatest of all time, etc. Makes me want to throw up.

Here's something for you to consider. If it wasn't for those VFL premierships all those years ago, there would be no AFL premierships today, because there would be no competition. So next time you start sprouting off about VFL flags "not counting", thing again .. or better still, think for the first time in your life.

excellent point adelaide hawk.

 

[JA27]

its been the same comp since 1897, just because teams have come and gone doesnt mean the premiership tally should be reset.

it would be different if a new comp had have been set up from teams in the vfl, sanfl and wafl.

 

[Monkey King]

People can be so mind-boggingly stupid it defies belief.

The quality of the football played, and the standard of the competiton has NOTHING to do with the historical record keeping. Nothing. Zip. Zilch.

All that matters, is that it is the SAME COMPETITION.

BINGO!

As much as newbies want this very plain fact to be ignored, the AFL is proud of its 100+ year history and league records will remain intact for as long as the league exists.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

its been the same comp since 1897, just because teams have come and gone doesnt mean the premiership tally should be reset.

it would be different if a new comp had have been set up from teams in the vfl, sanfl and wafl.

Agree the tally should not be reset.

In Bold!!! As it should have been but that is a ****up that is to late to fix.

 

[muesli]

its been the same comp since 1897, just because teams have come and gone doesnt mean the premiership tally should be reset.

it would be different if a new comp had have been set up from teams in the vfl, sanfl and wafl.

Agree, shouldn't be reset.