Ponting given the old Freo (heave ho).

[The Casey Cat]

Not sure if he is at the "banging the door down" level yet but Rob Quiney is having a pretty good season. If he completes the year in this form and then starts next year the same he is mounting a strong case. As would Davis from WA.

 

[Tassieboy]

Cowan was 3rd Highest run scorer last year and second highest this year

 

[Slax]

unfortunately sometimes players refuse to acknowledge the writing on the wall and will not voluntarily retire. When this happens the selectors are left with no choice but to drop them.

 

[maxy87]

David Hussey averages 54.84 at FC level, striking at 70.90

One would be inclined to think that a sustained period of run scoring resulting in a FC average pushing 55 may constitute "banging the door down" but that's neither here nor there.

Re: Cowan. The selectors identified a particular need at the top order and felt Cowan was the man to fill the role. Based on his solid shield returns this summer, it was justified. It's not always about sheer quantity of runs.

If we are looking to play the best performed players, then Hussey should be in consideration.

If we are looking to identify talent and develop it (like in the 1980s) then there are a host of players that could be considered such as Quiney, Kawaja, Forrest etc. We don't have the depth of sheer run scoring in the shield like we used to but there's still plenty of talent and potential. If we are giving bowlers caps as 19 - 20 year olds based on potential then why not batsmen?

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to buy this argument that we have to tolerate sustained periods mediocrity simply because nobody is "banging the door down"

 

[BarneyBent]

If we are looking to identify talent and develop it (like in the 1980s) then there are a host of players that could be considered such as Quiney, Kawaja, Forrest etc. We don't have the depth of sheer run scoring in the shield like we used to but there's still plenty of talent and potential. If we are giving bowlers caps as 19 - 20 year olds based on potential then why not batsmen?

How hold do you think Quiney is?

 

[Thommo 42]

Ponting failed to get the job done in 05 and 09 in england and those series occurred during his peak,

Ponting played perfectly well in both those series, unfortunately some of his teammates didn't come to the party.

He made around 400 runs @ 49 in the 2009 Ashes Series in England

He averaged 40 in the 2005 Ashes with a similar tally of just shy of 400 runs and was 3rd in the series behind Langer and Peiterson only, with Langer scoring his hundred when the series was basically gone.

In the 2005 series, played on great result wickets with great bowling, Martyn averaged 20, Katich 27, Hayden 32, Gilchrist 32, Clarke 37 and for the oppo, Vaughan averaged 32 and Bell 17 and got an OBE for their troubles.

I'd say Punter performed quite well, and he scored his runs when it mattered too with his sensational 156 to save the 3rd test at Old Trafford.

 

[skipper kelly]

Kaching. ^

 

[Happy Mastenator]

If he makes it to the SA series, i would put money on him averaging below 30. Then what do you do with regards to the Ashes?

 

[aussierulesrules]

Then he would get the old Freo from the test team as well, Happy and they would bring in whoever they believe to be the next best option.

How hold do you think Quiney is?

He didn't mention age, with relation to the batting options he mentioned there, he just said "identifying talent", meaning he thinks Quiney has talent, that we perhaps ought to test out at the highest level.
From memory, Quiney is the same sort of age Mike Hussey and Adam Gilchrist were when they made their test debuts, for instance. Not saying Quiney is necessarily anywhere near as good as them, but if we draw lines through anyone around the age of 30, simply because of their age, we could miss out on the next Hussey, or Gilly. If someone could have 5-7 years of quality test cricket in them, we ought to look at them for sure. Especially if Ponting goes before the Ashes and we have two Ashes series to win.

David Hussey averages 54.84 at FC level, striking at 70.90

One would be inclined to think that a sustained period of run scoring resulting in a FC average pushing 55 may constitute "banging the door down" but that's neither here nor there.

The problem for Duss is that, because of his T20 and ODI commitments for Australia, plus his $1.4 mil contract in the IPL, he is hardly playing any first class cricket anymore, so he is almost "out of sight out of mind", as far as all that goes.

Runs used to spew out of him basically every time he touched English soil, but since he started playing in the IPL, he hasn't been playing much (if any) County cricket and he doesn't play much Shield cricket any more, either, so it makes it hard. From memory he made over 200 runs in his last Shield game (and was only dismissed once), so he can certainly still get it done in FC cricket, but he just plays so little of it now that it would probably be a risk to pick him for tests.

Then there is the likelihood of him not playing for long, if he did get a game, so that will lessen the appeal greatly, especially if they reckon there is someone else who would be as likely to succeed, who is much younger than him.

If we were picking someone largely for the Ashes in England, though, you could do a lot worse than pick someone who has had 4 1000+ runs seasons in County cricket, who has lots of international experience and is in good form (assuming he still is then), though.

 

[Wicked Lester]

unfortunately sometimes players refuse to acknowledge the writing on the wall and will not voluntarily retire. When this happens the selectors are left with no choice but to drop them.

I'm inclined to think its more than 'sometimes'.


McGrath and Warne aside, we haven't seen too many test greats retiring of their own accord over the past 30 years. Langer joined those two in retirement, but limped to the line and could not have gone any further. I guess Gilchrist retired on his own terms, but the wolves were certainly circling.

Perhaps there is something about the physical demands bowlers carry that send better signals about when to call it a day.

As far as great Australian batsmen go, genuine retirements are few and far between. I'm drawing a distinction here between a genuine retirement and the 'through gritted teeth style of retirement' that we saw a few times over the last decade or two.

It's well known Border's 'retirement' was forced upon the reluctant and disgruntled party. Boon, Mark Waugh and Healy (also in the 'great' category) didn't depart at a time of their choosing and Steve Waugh, already dumped 2 years prior from the One Day team, turned his final days as a test player into something of a circus. When, after milking Zimbabwe and Bangladesh for cheap runs (which would have been a great opportunity to blood a youngster) he eventually and quite suddenly announced a 'retirement tour (at home against India) and did so with his own management staging the announcement with Cricket Australia nowhere to be seen, such was the breakdown in relations between employer and employee.

I think you've got to go all the way back to 1983/84 to find a great Australian batsman (Greg Chappell) who retired with real dignity and entirely on his own terms. You could perhaps throw Tubby into the mix, but its debatable.

We tend to gloss over the unedifying spectacle that is usually the final days of great test players and, whatever happens from here, we'll do the same with Ponting. And that's fine in my view.

Ponting is so driven by team goals there'll be no histrionics by him when the curtain finally falls. His end will almost certainly come after a phone call from the selectors. Fairy tale endings in cricket are as rare as hens teeth.

I should point out I've found Ponting's career to have been the most enjoyable career (by an australian batsman) I've witnessed since the aforementioned GS Chappell.

 

[Thommo 42]

Well said Wicked Lester

He didn't mention age, with relation to the batting options he mentioned there, he just said "identifying talent", meaning he thinks Quiney has talent, that we perhaps ought to test out at the highest level.
From memory, Quiney is the same sort of age Mike Hussey and Adam Gilchrist were when they made their test debuts, for instance. Not saying Quiney is necessarily anywhere near as good as them, but if we draw lines through anyone around the age of 30, simply because of their age, we could miss out on the next Hussey, or Gilly. If someone could have 5-7 years of quality test cricket in them, we ought to look at them for sure. Especially if Ponting goes before the Ashes and we have two Ashes series to win.

Its rather disingenous to mention Quiney with the likes of M.Hussey and Gilchrist.

Gilchrist was 27 when he made his test debut and had been playing international cricket since he was 24 and dominating.

Hussey was 30 when he made his test debut and had in excess of 13,000 first class runs at that point.

Quiney is 29 and has 2,500 first class runs at 35. You don't put a line through him because he is 30, you put a line through him on the basis of his inability to score runs on a consistent basis for his entire first class career, to the point where he wasn't even in the Victorian shield side only 18 months ago.

 

[maxy87]

How hold do you think Quiney is?

Quineys age isnt relevant to the batsmen comment, it's international (or even FC) experience that matters. I shouldnt have mentioned age in the bowlers part but only did so to emphasize that sometimes you need to take a punt on an untried player, based on potential and it can reap benefits. After all, wasn't a fresh-faced bloke with a mountain of potential picked to play in a test match against Sri Lanka in December 1995?

I think the days of "earning your stripes" at shield level for up to a decade (if you ever get an opportunity to go further) are over, at least for the foreseeable future. It was only due to having such a dominant team that people like Lehmann, Law, Cox, Siddons, Hussey et. al. had to score so heavily for so long to even be considered for national selection

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Without having read the whole thread and as a self confessed Ponting lover, I want to point out that prior to this series Ponting's form has actually been pretty good in ODI cricket.

Across the 3 series played in the last 12 months (all overseas), Ponting has averaged over 44 (and prior to that he was the only one standing up in the WC quarter final loss with a centuary).

Most of the Ponting criticism was around his Test form which has since been rectified.

Having said all that, I respect the overall approach the new selectors have taken but am sad that I won't even get to see Ponting in a farewell ODI.

 

[Cooldude]

I must be the only one who thought he deserved to be told he won't be required beyond this series and we'll give you a farewell at Hobart, instead of being dumped the way he was.

Even Heals didn't deserve that sorta treatment, didn't think one of our best ever would either.

 

[Wicked Lester]

Quineys age isnt relevant to the batsmen comment, it's international (or even FC) experience that matters. I shouldnt have mentioned age in the bowlers part but only did so to emphasize that sometimes you need to take a punt on an untried player, based on potential and it can reap benefits. After all, wasn't a fresh-faced bloke with a mountain of potential picked to play in a test match against Sri Lanka in December 1995?

Fundamentally, I think I agree with you, except to say that not all fresh young players with potential are equal. The truth is there are plenty of talented young players who come through the ranks. Some of them realise that talent and some do not. That's life.

Occasionally however, there'll be some spotty young kid whose talent blows everyone away. Ponting was an absolute standout at academy level and had the likes of Rod Marsh in awe of his ability to pull short balls (helmetless) in front of square. He was always going to be fast tracked. That he immediately put runs on the board at first class level made his international selection even easier.

Michael Clarke was another who caught the coaches and selectors eyes at an early age. In Clarke's case however, he didn't really have the first class runs on the board when he first got his baggy green. But to their credit the selectors saw something and backed him.

What I find a little worrying for Australian cricket is that since Clarke's debut in 2005, there hasn't been another young batsman who so oozes class that he demands fast tracking.

 

[frankrizzo]

Ponting has stated time after time he's not interested in farewell games or anything like that.

if they asked him to retire after hobart no doubt he would have refused and forced them to either pick him or drop him.

It's likely his test career will end the same way, he will play until he's axed.

if he makes the 2013 ashes there is a decent chance it will all end badly, we are playing a better team in their conditions with what will be a geriatric middle order.

In fairness to him he has stated he's fine with that so good luck to him, it's his supporters who need to start understanding the mcgrath/warne type fairytale end is highly unlikely to appeal to ponting or to even be available to ponting.

 

[Wicked Lester]

Without having read the whole thread and as a self confessed Ponting lover, I want to point out that prior to this series Ponting's form has actually been pretty good in ODI cricket.

Across the 3 series played in the last 12 months (all overseas), Ponting has averaged over 44 (and prior to that he was the only one standing up in the WC quarter final loss with a centuary).

Most of the Ponting criticism was around his Test form which has since been rectified.

That's exactly right. his form at ODI level had held up remarkably well while his test form suffered. It's rather ironic the way things have panned out.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Without having read the whole thread and as a self confessed Ponting lover, I want to point out that prior to this series Ponting's form has actually been pretty good in ODI cricket.

Across the 3 series played in the last 12 months (all overseas), Ponting has averaged over 44 (and prior to that he was the only one standing up in the WC quarter final loss with a centuary).

Most of the Ponting criticism was around his Test form which has since been rectified.

Having said all that, I respect the overall approach the new selectors have taken but am sad that I won't even get to see Ponting in a farewell ODI.

He's been dropped, not retired, hence no point for farewell game, he could theoretically still be called up agian, if he'd made the announcement he'd retired and was no longer available for one day selection you could potentially see a farewell game.

He refused to do that, even in his press conference he said he wasn't retired from ODI's, while acknowledging it was unlikely he'd be picked again.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Its rather disingenous to mention Quiney with the likes of M.Hussey and Gilchrist.

Gilchrist was 27 when he made his test debut and had been playing international cricket since he was 24 and dominating.

Hussey was 30 when he made his test debut and had in excess of 13,000 first class runs at that point.

Quiney is 29 and has 2,500 first class runs at 35. You don't put a line through him because he is 30, you put a line through him on the basis of his inability to score runs on a consistent basis for his entire first class career, to the point where he wasn't even in the Victorian shield side only 18 months ago.

Fair enough re. Gilly, I thought he was a bit older than that when he debuted, but I also said I wasn't suggesting Quiney was anywhere near as good as them, I was just saying that it would be a mistake to put a line through someone who could still have 7+ years of good cricket ahead of them, which is why Quiney was being suggested. No one at that point had mentioned the other stuff you brought up, it was purely about his age.

For whatever reason, or various reasons, not everyone follows the same path as everyone else and some peak early and some peak late and I certainly wouldn't be putting a line through someone that has obvious talent and could have several years of their best cricket ahead of them (especially when they're having one of the best overall seasons, across all formats, that anyone has had in Australian domestic cricket in recent times). There's no need to limit the amount of options you have, which is what happens when you start putting lines through names. That would be like handicapping yourself and it's completely unnecessary.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

One of our greats but should of been moved on after our Ashes debacle had nothing left to prove and odds are he isnt gonna there in 2014.

 

[realsniper09]

Ponting is still going to play tests, which I think is fair enough to do for him now.

BUT, he isn't playing ODIs anymore. To me, he will be regarded as one of the best ODI players ever, not only just for Australia.

4 WC finals, 3 WC wins, 2 wins as captain. 2 unbeaten tournaments as well... HE captained an utterly dominating one-day team. And he performed great in those finals as well, as well as his last WC game.
And as a one-day player (not quite so only batsman), he's arguably better than Tendulkar. His fielding, so important in the one-day game, brings him up several notches from other legendary one-day players.

 

[Wicked Lester]

4 WC finals, 3 WC wins, 2 wins as captain. 2 unbeaten tournaments as well... HE captained an utterly dominating one-day team. And he performed great in those finals as well, as well as his last WC game.

Don't forget that in the two winning world cups he captained, he lost one of his best bowlers on the eve of the tournament (Warne in 2003, Lee in 2007).

 

[MC Bad Genius]

What I find a little worrying for Australian cricket is that since Clarke's debut in 2005, there hasn't been another young batsman who so oozes class that he demands fast tracking.

It seems like they're doing that with Warner at the moment, so maybe he'll be the next Ponting/Clarke.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

It seems like they're doing that with Warner at the moment, so maybe he'll be the next Ponting/Clarke.

This makes me sad....

 

[Thommo 42]

What I find a little worrying for Australian cricket is that since Clarke's debut in 2005, there hasn't been another young batsman who so oozes class that he demands fast tracking.

Yes there has. Phillip Hughes, but they killed the golden goose in 2009 when trying to protect Mitch Johnson.