This false dawn is gonna hurt the most

[Mr Magic]

I did, so i went and put $250 on the Bombers @ $1.83.

I had money on the Tigers but laid off when Nahas come in for
Ellis.

in hindsight i should have loaded up on the bombers but heart got ahead of head

 

[NUFC Tiger]

The club has come along way in a few years. Even if we don't make finals this year (and there is still a long way to go plus many winnable games yet to play...) I don't think that would mean this whole rebuild has been a failure and another false dawn has come. The list is still very young, we have new facilities, secured finances and a growing membership base. If anything, the future is still burning bright! Have faith fellow tigers!

 

[WATiger86]

Haven't read too much of what sounds like an epic meltdown since Saturday. My two cents is that finals are going to be touch and go, with the middle of the table looking like a log jam. Its disappointing that we're not standing up in the big games. Is this Dimma's fault? In part - the players probably need to cop a whack too - but ultimately, as head coach Dimma is the one who should be held accountable. Will be interesting to see how the club views his position if we are to miss out on finals.

Regardless, even in a worst case scenario where we miss finals and Dimma is axed, I don't see this as a false dawn. A coach would be able to come straight in and do a Lyon at Freo, Malthouse at Carlton and just tweak a playing style without cleaning out the list. Problem is, aside from Roos who may never coach again, there are few experienced coaches out there to step up.

 

[captain blood 17]

I agree with the OP. In fact, I reckon we should petition the club to actually not play footy for the rest of the year. Just lock up, and start pre season early, because it looks just too hard to support the club and think we're still a chance.

 

[Tigersman]

A month or so from now we will be in good shape and the train will be back on track. 8 and 5 I would predict.

At some point we will break through in one of these big games and then we take another step.

Ill be more disappointed if we drop 4 points against a team below us in the next month or so.

We had a bad game. It's far from disastrous

 

[captain blood 17]

Say we do what some people think impossible, and roll the WCE, how stupid are some people gonna look?

 

[bigricho12]

I think we need to take a deep breath. Am I disappointed in our performance against Essendon? Yeah sure am. Do I have questions about this game plan? Sure do. Am I disappointed with our performances against Geelong and the Magpies? Yes. Dis we blow the game against the Dockers and basically Carlton? Sure did.

But.... I still think we play finals. I went through ladder predictor and accounting for a very conservative view, we finish 7th with 14 wins and 8 losses.

If that is where we in fact end up then its right on track with our expected development.

 

[docko911]

When you are wrong, you really are wrong.

Lets not mistake natural progression for development.

Shane Tuck and Daniel Jackson are no better.

Luke McGuane as much as I want to believe he can become a gun is really a go between guy with a lot less skill than that Schulz bloked we traded for Nason and Farmer. He hasn't improved he is just gettting used to playing in a different position. The fair argument would be do you really think he is a better forward than a defender or is it just we have better defenders than before but not better forwards?

Jake King has improved in a different position but hasn't been developed has just progressed through experience and weights training.

Shane Edwards has got better but was a second round pick and it is only natural progression.

All of this is irrelevant as these players were influenced by a different coaching regime and there is always likely to be players who get better naturally AKA Alex Rance, Trent Cotchin.

Houli, Maric and Grigg were all players on the boarder at their previous clubs but had better players in front of them. At Richmond they did not have better players so these guys played many more games. Grigg slightly improved (but has shit disposal), Houli improved a little more (but there are still questions) and Maric was only being compared to our previous ruck man who was shite (while he may have had a good year last year he is getting murdered this year). Maric doesn't look a great deal different to when he was playing at Adelaide he is just getting more game time and responsibility.

Petterd is definitely not a successful HBF yet a couple of third man up spoils and a few clanger kicks doesn't make him a best 22 player. He has played much better games at HFF for Melbourne which is saying something.

Morris was a good pickup but we did actually trade down a in first pick position to get him and he was already pretty good when he arrived not meh but maybe he has been developed or maybe he has just responded to being in the AFL like say a Michael Barlow...

Batchelor is the closest player to a player developed by Hardwick that wasn't a first round pick and he really hasn't got a whole lot better he was just solid when we got him.

The problem is we should have at least 3-4 more players if not 6-7 who have come from the drafts and been developed into players who are best 22 or quality back-ups. We were intentionally trying to develop talent and recruit new players but there are other clubs that have developed more quality players whilst playing for flags. It just shows we are a bit hopeless.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Its not a false dawn.
We're not trading our early picks away for these older players, the base (all our early draft picks) will still be there even if Dimma is proven to be not the man.
The facilities/recruiting staff/money for a compliment of coaches is not going anywhere soon.

Yep, good call, Ralll.

The club's longer term direction is a dawn which began in 2005 and the policies implemented then for holding our picks has left us in decent stead.

Could be better, could be infinitely worse.

 

[Rayzorwire]

The problem is we should have at least 3-4 more players if not 6-7 who have come from the drafts and been developed into players who are best 22 or quality back-ups. We were intentionally trying to develop talent and recruit new players but there are other clubs that have developed more quality players whilst playing for flags. It just shows we are a bit hopeless.

Spot on, docko.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Again you are desperately trying to find the negative in anything. King isn't a better player because of weight training (he recently conceded he doesn't have the strength anymore to do the 300+ push ups he did one pre season), he improved because he channeled his aggressive play into a more disciplined manner. Jackson has been one of best mids we have had this season, ive been advocating his trade for years, but ignoring his current form is stubborn and stupid.

The rest was more of the same, so yeah, Dimma sucks, sack everyone, booooo

 

[Bazzar]

Lets not mistake natural progression for development.

Shane Tuck and Daniel Jackson are no better.

Bet you anything he is currently in the top 5 for the B&F

 

[Bird Man]

bigger meltdown will be had when we lose to GC

 

[docko911]

Bet you anything he is currently in the top 5 for the B&F

Yeah but Hardwick and the rest of the coaching staff decide that shit. People who actually watch football can see he's about as useful as a condom in a lesbian orgy. Smart but not football smart!

 

[Bazzar]

Yeah but Hardwick and the rest of the coaching staff decide that shit. People who actually watch football can see he's about as useful as a condom in a lesbian orgy. Smart but not football smart!

You have NFI

 

[docko911]

Again you are desperately trying to find the negative in anything. King isn't a better player because of weight training (he recently conceded he doesn't have the strength anymore to do the 300+ push ups he did one pre season), he improved because he channeled his aggressive play into a more disciplined manner. Jackson has been one of best mids we have had this season, ive been advocating his trade for years, but ignoring his current form is stubborn and stupid.

The rest was more of the same, so yeah, Dimma sucks, sack everyone, booooo

And your being too positive!

Premiership sides do not contain only first round picks. Outside of Deledio, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Rance, Martin, Vickery, Ellis, Conca, Vlastuin what do we have???

Edwards - He's had a few good games but lets not get ahead of ourselves he can't kick.
Grimes - Could be great if he could stay fit.
Batchelor - I like him why doesn't Dimma?
Jackson - Seriously lucky to still be in our team regardless of supposed good form.
Nahas, White, McGuane - Still shit, as much as I want McGuane to succeed.
Tuck - Just solid was before Hardwick.
Foley - Injuries but was a gun before Hardwick.
Newman - Was a gun before Hardwick.
King - A bit better up forward under Hardwick... maturity.

Maric, Houli, Grigg, Knights, Chaplin, Petterd, A.Edwards Lonergan, and Stephenson. With the exception of Chaplin none could get a game at their previous clubs and they really haven't improved all that much.

The rest... are either too young, not developed enough or not good enough.

So tell me please what has Hardwick done?

 

[docko911]

You have NFI

Me and the rest of the AFL who didn't want a bar of him the last 2 off seasons.

I will admit I'm wrong if we win a flag with Jackson in the team!

 

[Ned_Flanders]

And your being too positive!

Premiership sides do not contain only first round picks. Outside of Deledio, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Rance, Martin, Vickery, Ellis, Conca, Vlastuin what do we have???

Edwards - He's had a few good games but lets not get ahead of ourselves he can't kick.
Grimes - Could be great if he could stay fit.
Batchelor - I like him why doesn't Dimma?
Jackson - Seriously lucky to still be in our team regardless of supposed good form.
Nahas, White, McGuane - Still shit, as much as I want McGuane to succeed.
Tuck - Just solid was before Hardwick.
Foley - Injuries but was a gun before Hardwick.
Newman - Was a gun before Hardwick.
King - A bit better up forward under Hardwick... maturity.

Maric, Houli, Grigg, Knights, Chaplin, Petterd, A.Edwards Lonergan, and Stephenson. With the exception of Chaplin none could get a game at their previous clubs and they really haven't improved all that much.

The rest... are either too young, not developed enough or not good enough.

So tell me please what has Hardwick done?

Y are just getting funny now, did Dimma also steal lindys baby?

Your player reviews are basically fiction, designed to support your sack Dimma argument. If you want to debate, great, but claiming tuck is the same player as earlier intis career plus the rest of your dross is pure fiction

 

[MightyTiger]

this is far from reactionary garbage as you say. these blokes are supposed to be our leaders. leadership is part instinct, part coachable. name me 2 players who have advanced under dimma? I will give you one- ellis. who else? find the other one for me please. before you post reactionary garbage have your facts and reasons.

Riewoldt, Rance, Conca, Grimes, Edwards, Tuck, Cotchin, Martin, Deledio.

Actually, the whole list has improved from being one absolutely stinking pile of shit to sneaky chance for finals.

Hardwick has spent the best part of 3 years stripping the list back and getting rid of the shit Wallace left us with, he's effectively had half a season with a decently talented list that can push most teams, not only that we've gone from a team who barely had an injury all year last year to having one of the longest in the afl including many starting 18 players missing, which includes probably 3 of our most important midfielders and our probably our best defender.

Now kindly stick your membership in the microwave because this club doesn't need impatient fools like yourself to bring this club down.

RFC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You

 

[cairo tiger]

Riewoldt, Rance, Conca, Grimes, Edwards, Tuck, Cotchin, Martin, Deledio.

Actually, the whole list has improved from being one absolutely stinking pile of shit to sneaky chance for finals.

Hardwick has spent the best part of 3 years stripping the list back and getting rid of the shit Wallace left us with, he's effectively had half a season with a decently talented list that can push most teams, not only that we've gone from a team who barely had an injury all year last year to having one of the longest in the afl including many starting 18 players missing, which includes probably 3 of our most important midfielders and our probably our best defender.

Now kindly stick your membership in the microwave because this club doesn't need impatient fools like yourself to bring this club down.

RFC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You

your arguments have now become inflammatory, mindless, and personal oh and based on shite. get your head out of the sand or go somewhere you will get some sympathy.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Are we trying to win a flag or just sneak into the finals one day?

Cotchin, Riewoldt, Martin (don't know why he is here), Deledio and Vlastuin

versus

Ablett, O'meara, Bennell, Swallow and they say the best is Jack Martin who is still yet to play.

The time to win a flag, not just sneak into the 8, was around now. It could very easily be false era.

Cotchin, Riewoldt, Martin, Deledio and Vlastuin are evidence that this year alone is NOT our only shot, don't you think? They're all young and we can build around them for the next 5-6 years. Our team will get better every year with no significant retirements.

Gold Coast and gws fear is unjustified.

Remember when we were like 'Deledio, Tambling, Raines, Polo, and they say Danny Meyer could be one of the best "

 

[CoggaRules]

This is the problem!

We played a shit brand against Essendon, our ruckman has reverted to his previous shitness and the only decent recruitment we have done seems to be completely established players or first round draft picks.

We are following the cycle we always follow. Regardless of what anyone else thinks it always comes to a time in recent history where a Richmond coach seeks results over long term development. We now have a list that is no better than the year before with 6 new players playing who are all in some form list cloggers. While this is not entirely true it is pretty close.

Look at it this way:
- While Chaplin has been sensational for us he is 27 and we have 2 KPD Astbury and Griffiths at prime age rotting in the VFL. As a result in around 3 years we probably have none of these KPD's unless Astbury or Griffiths move up forward or we get injuries but their development is still being halted.
- Petterd playing resulted in Batchelor missing a few games. Batchelor is 10x the defender Petterd is and has better skills (for those who don't agree open your eyes) but if Petterd gets fit does Batchelor miss out again. Already lost some development for a hack who couldn't get a game at Melbourne FFS.
- Knights played really well but everyone knows he is injury prone now he probably won't play another game for us and he will be worse than he was. Him playing and taking a spot on our list has stopped the development and/or ability to pick up a young player with potential.
- A.Edwards what is he even doing on our list he is a one dimensional player who kicks goals handed to him on a platter. He is 29 and if we were to play him when Jack or McGuane or both got injured we'd be completely screwed. He also has off field issues I mean I would have preferred to use the late pick on some 21 year old state league player like say Jack Hannath or we could have got Kommer a player who fits into our forward needs...
- Orren Stephenson ok I almost completely agree with this pickup as a genuine backup ruckman while we develop a young ruckman but hold on a second the main ruckman we are developing is tom derickx who is 25 and shithouse. Surely we could have gone for a young ruckman somewhere, McBean I don't believe is one either (although he'll probably be able to do anything).
- That leaves us with Sam Lonergan who once again is not the best player in the world and was in worse form than a young Matthew Arnot but got the nod ahead of him. Why? when another young bloke Vlastuin came in and dominated do we not try Arnot and see if he can't dominate.

That's 6 blokes, 5 if you don't count Stephenson list clogging. We aren't in a premiership year, we haven't even played finals and we are still trying to win with old players with no potential. We are going backwards while teams around us are going forwards and our best players are getting worse with poor coaching.

I also believe Houli and Grigg could be list clogging especially Grigg because he is just pure disposal shitness and slow. Houli is preventing Dea from developing even though he is good he just lacks something I think will keep him out of a team that would contend. Plus we have continued to persist with guys like Nahas, Jackson, White and McGuane. While I have stood up for McGuane, and Jackson has been better this year they really aren't the future of this football club.

IMO we haven't really done a whole lot of recruiting since Hardwick came into the club. We have only drafted these players in AFL and preseason drafts;

2009 - Dustin Martin (best 22), Benjamin Griffiths (reserve), David Astbury (reserve), Matthew Dea (reserve), Troy Taylor (fail), Jeromey Webberley (fail), Ben Nason (fail), Dylan Grimes (best 22)
*Trade in Mitch Farmer (fail)
2010 - Reece Conca (best 22), Jake Batchelor (best 22 IMO), Brad Helbig (reserve), Dean Macdonald (fail), Tom Derickx (listed failure), Bachar Houli (best 22 but only for now).
*Trade in Shaun Grigg (playing best 22 but doesn't deserve to be there)
2011 - Brandon Ellis (best 22), Todd Elton (reserve), Matthew Arnot (reserve), Brett O'Hanlon (reserve).
*Trade Steven Morris (best 22), Ivan Maric (thought he was best 22 but he is reverting back to spudness.
2012 - Nick Vlastuin (best 22), Kamdyn McIntosh (reserve), Liam McBean (reserve), Matthew McDonough (reserve).
*Trade in Aaron Edwards (reserve, old and a complete waste)
Free Agents - Troy Chaplin (good but only has 3-4 years left), Chris Knights (good but can't stay healthy).
*Rookies - Stephenson (Mature Backup ruckman), Lonergan and Petterd (backups but playing instead of rookies).

In terms of the draft we have managed to:
- Pick up 7 players currently in our best 22 including 4 first round picks, a second round pick, a rookie draft pick and a recycled player who could be pushed out.
- Pick up 10 players currently playing VFL with half with little AFL experience.
- Pick up 5 failures

We have not drafted one rookie who is AFL capable, except for this year with the players who are recycled and not really the future.

It's a bit poor to think in 4 years we have only drafted 5.5 players on average and have only found 7 players legitimately capable of playing AFL. Add Morris to that list and we average 2 best 22 players per year. We'll have a complete team in 11 years but that excludes quality backups.

I know this is a lot of bagging but the reality stinks, even when we have meant to be focusing on recruiting and rebuilding we have failed compared to many other clubs. We need to start again by adding 6+ players per year to our list until it is strong to player 35 with only 5 or so players in early development and some rookies.

^^^ Reality right there...luv ya work dude...its spot on!!

 

[TheOutsider74]

Lyon would destroy us. In 3-4 years Essendon will be a cross between the saints now and North and we should be like Gold Coast charging up but far more advanced banging down the premiership door


btw, lets see how he goes at Freo, St Kilda was a failure

Failure? Consecutive Grand Final appearances?

 

[RECORDS!]

Did anyone else take the 7.50 last week?

 

[RECORDS!]

Failure? Consecutive Grand Final appearances?

Exactly, these Ross Lyon bashers make me laugh. He is an excellent coach. This finals series he will prove it.