The never ending Priddis debate - part II

[Smotie]

Oh dear, the less intelligent but undeniably devoted sycophant has arrived. Time for me to depart, this discussion about score assists being "semi useful" has lowered the collective IQ of the whole board.

So when have I done this?

Sycophant:
A person who attempts to gain advantage by flattering influential people or behaving in a servile manner

My guess is you didn't know what the word meant.

When have I intimated or said a score assist was semi useful.

Straw man much?

Time to run away?

 

[kempo9]

Who said specialist half forward?

A high half forward is a mid playing half forward who follows the ball.

A specialist half forward is Le cras, someone who can play up the ground a bit but is predominately a forward who can kick bags.

Ok then. But a high-half forward is Cousins who runs his opponent into the ground, who will murder him if he dares leave him, and who has the ability to maintain defensive pressure so the opponent can't stroll out of defense/or create overlap... The 3 things Pridda can absolutely not do.

Fact is, he's been hidden there because it's the least damaging place to put him, team-wise... kinda like what they did with Woosha in his final years. Basically carrying a player but at least Worsfold offered some benefit. Pridda is there because it would "look" insane to drop a Brownlow Medalist.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Yes, obviously turnovers are more effective when the opposition is front running compared to when they are waiting for the ball to be cleared from a contest, but that doesn't stop the fact that the only reason there is a contest at all is because your big bodied players are crashing into the oppositions'. Other wise it's just the opposition winning the ball and kicking goals.

I provided an addenda, i didn't question the value of stoppage tackles and grunt work.

I question is regarding the classification error that was made, which was one that doesn't make distinction between a tackle at a stoppage being equivalent to a tackle outside stoppages. Particularly within the context of turnovers. You didn't make the distinction and drew false equivalency in regards to turnovers.

There is a difference between losing a stoppage and drawing it and the best stoppage players do everything to ensure they don't lose it. But the best stoppage players bring more than that they bring game breaking attributes at the same time.

In regards to your earlier post. Priddis will be doing well to be in the top 200 for goal assists come seasons end, at this stage it's not a relevant fact. Scoring contributions are much more interesting stat for Priddis, because of the amount of ball that passes through his hand. If they were popularly exploited as a fantasy statistic and broken down and video documented you could quickly and effectively critique the value of all those scoring contributions and how high up the disposal chain he sits.

For instance Priddis might wind up with more score contributions than someone like Shuey even though Shuey has more Goal Assists and more Goals from clearances. Priddis can and does pad his stats with ineffective clearances and inconsequential disposals both contested and uncontested. Your right in pointing out his defensive prowess at stoppages because the meat and bones of his clearance work isn't necessarily good enough and Priddis is reliant on outside players turning his half touches into scoring chances. If he didn't bring such defensive work he wouldn't get games.

 

[LordHaart]

In determining whether Matt can assist us in winning a flag I have to take account of a 30m kick under zero pressure kicked out in front of an elite forward?

The sort of pass that a decent schoolboy footballer would make 8 out of 10 times?

Why?

Yes, you do. Thought it was pretty clear:

You have to take the good into account as well when conducting a fair and unbiased analysis of his performance

The whole premise of this thread is based around the idea that Priddis does more harm than good by being in the side. Surely any rational discussion around this should include all facets of his game, good and bad. When the claim has constantly been made that Matt is a liability kicking inside 50 and he bucks that trend, that's a useful data point? Sure, it might turn out to be an isolated incident but you can't just ignore it or claim that it's irrelevant when the debate centers on the exact topic of whether Priddis has any ability to help us win games.

TBH I kind of agree with GIFMaker that you've put up a straw man here, arguing that those plays don't matter because Priddis won't win us a flag (which no one actually said he would) is just a way of ignoring the fact that Priddis played decently in that game. Would it have been that hard to just say, "yes, he played decently, but I would have expected that and he would have to show that form against tougher opposition before changing my opinion" instead of reverting to name calling ("arsehat"?). Have you ever managed to successfully sway someone's opinion by insulting them?

 

[Some Idiot]

I provided an addenda, i didn't question the value of stoppage tackles and grunt work.

I question is regarding the classification error that was made, which was one that doesn't make distinction between a tackle at a stoppage being equivalent to a tackle outside stoppages. Particularly within the context of turnovers. You didn't make the distinction and drew false equivalency in regards to turnovers.

There is a difference between losing a stoppage and drawing it and the best stoppage players do everything to ensure they don't lose it. But the best stoppage players bring more than that they bring game breaking attributes at the same time.

In regards to your earlier post. Priddis will be doing well to be in the top 200 for goal assists come seasons end, at this stage it's not a relevant fact. Scoring contributions are much more interesting stat for Priddis, because of the amount of ball that passes through his hand. If they were popularly exploited as a fantasy statistic and broken down and video documented you could quickly and effectively critique the value of all those scoring contributions and how high up the disposal chain he sits.

For instance Priddis might wind up with more score contributions than someone like Shuey even though Shuey has more Goal Assists and more Goals from clearances. Priddis can and does pad his stats with ineffective clearances and inconsequential disposals both contested and uncontested. Your right in pointing out his defensive prowess at stoppages because the meat and bones of his clearance work isn't necessarily good enough and Priddis is reliant on outside players turning his half touches into scoring chances. If he didn't bring such defensive work he wouldn't get games.

Sorry I misinterpreted. I agree with most of what you have said.
Champion data do record all scoring contributions, so certainly analysts and coaches have access both to those statistics and their own replays of the game from their own cameramen.

 

[LordHaart]

The point is that for a quality mid and one that has won a brownlow we shouldn't have to be highlighting gifs about a 30 meter pass to a leading forward.
You won't find it on any other board about any other leading midfielder. We didn't have to do it for Judd or cousins or matera. It was without question something that was done as if waking up in the morning.

To be fair, none of those other players have had thousands of posts written about them questioning their usefulness to the team. Makes perfect sense to me that when strong claims are made about a player's worth, others will point out any flaws in said claims.

But for Matt it is done as if we are supposed to yell out "WE WERE WRONG" and make some special homage to it..

Not sure I saw anyone ask for that (at least, not until the thread descended back into insults (yes, on both sides)). Pretty sure that all that most people want here is to have their points acknowledged. He played reasonably well against GWS (and there's an argument to be made that he's more effective when he handballs under pressure rather than kicking, which he seems to have only started doing again recently). At the same time, I agree with you on this:

These sorts of delivery from priddis is not only rare by foot but also done mostly against weaker opposition who don't apply pressure to the ball carrier.

I wonder if Matt will do that against port on Sunday so easily with Kane kornes sitting on him now that he is a "specialist" high half forward flanker.

Spot on here, I doubt it. He won't help us win a GF; nevertheless he still played decently (not brilliantly; not poorly) on the weekend.

 

[Eagle87]

Yes, you do. Thought it was pretty clear:



The whole premise of this thread is based around the idea that Priddis does more harm than good by being in the side. Surely any rational discussion around this should include all facets of his game, good and bad. When the claim has constantly been made that Matt is a liability kicking inside 50 and he bucks that trend, that's a useful data point? Sure, it might turn out to be an isolated incident but you can't just ignore it or claim that it's irrelevant when the debate centers on the exact topic of whether Priddis has any ability to help us win games.

TBH I kind of agree with GIFMaker that you've put up a straw man here, arguing that those plays don't matter because Priddis won't win us a flag (which no one actually said he would) is just a way of ignoring the fact that Priddis played decently in that game. Would it have been that hard to just say, "yes, he played decently, but I would have expected that and he would have to show that form against tougher opposition before changing my opinion" instead of reverting to name calling ("arsehat"?). Have you ever managed to successfully sway someone's opinion by insulting them?

On your last point, I couldn't care less. He was trolling.

On your more substantive point, it's also been the subject of the thread that Matt isn't without positive traits. He obviously is, including the ability to occasionally execute a skill at the level of a solidly talented schoolboy footballer.

But as you allude, to solely focus on his few positive points from a game is to risk overstating his import. He was ok, sort of, after half time when the floodgates opened and the pressure fell away completely by them. Given that context his disposals while neat and productive were only semi-useful in the same way Butlers late goal the week before was. It was an asterisk rather than the main sentence.

This week everything about the main sentence, the story of the game, revolved around what Priddis didn't do and what others did in his place. His game was adequate, it was ok, it was no more than that. Importantly, when others took his main role we looked sharper, quicker, more damaging and we pressured better...

Which seems significant since that's the main theme of this thread...

And some arsehats want to focus on a couple of context less GIF'S

 

[Godfather32]

In the current game - where turnovers and scores there from are considered oh so important, Priddis is again leading the league in effective tackles.

Priddis is also top 10 in the league for clangers, which generally lead to turnovers. Priddis is also equal third in the league for frees against, which once again generally are turnovers.
He is also equal last in the league for one percenters, with a grand total of 0. That's not one single shepherd, smother, knock-on or spoil from someone who is around the ball so much. Not one single shepherd so one of our faster running, more skilled mids can get free and run on with the ball, from 5 games. The only other person on our team who has not recorded a one percenter is Callum Sinclair who has only played 1 game.
We can all quote stats and interpret them how we like, but there are as many negative stats as positive when it comes to Priddis.

 

[Some Idiot]

Priddis is also top 10 in the league for clangers, which generally lead to turnovers. Priddis is also equal third in the league for frees against, which once again generally are turnovers.
He is also equal last in the league for one percenters, with a grand total of 0. That's not one single shepherd, smother, knock-on or spoil from someone who is around the ball so much. Not one single shepherd so one of our faster running, more skilled mids can get free and run on with the ball, from 5 games. The only other person on our team who has not recorded one is Callum Sinclair who has only played 1 game.
We can all quote stats and interpret them how we like, but there are as many negative stats as positive when it comes to Priddis.

Shepherds is definitely a stat that often gets missed by the statisticians, however even so the fact he has none recorded does show he can't be doing it much, does surprise and disappoint me.

 

[Godfather32]

Shepherds is definitely a stat that often gets missed by the statisticians, however even so the fact he has none recorded does show he can't be doing it much, does surprise and disappoint me.

If you watch him, the majority of the time instead of shepherding he runs slightly wide or forward of the contest to provide a handball option, when the team would be much better off if he provided a shepherd and let the classier ball user run on with the ball.

 

[Smotie]

To be fair, none of those other players have had thousands of posts written about them questioning their usefulness to the team. Makes perfect sense to me that when strong claims are made about a player's worth, others will point out any flaws in said claims.



Not sure I saw anyone ask for that (at least, not until the thread descended back into insults (yes, on both sides)). Pretty sure that all that most people want here is to have their points acknowledged. He played reasonably well against GWS (and there's an argument to be made that he's more effective when he handballs under pressure rather than kicking, which he seems to have only started doing again recently). At the same time, I agree with you on this:



Spot on here, I doubt it. He won't help us win a GF; nevertheless he still played decently (not brilliantly; not poorly) on the weekend.

I agree with you on all points.
I will add that I find it humorous that after him moving to the hff and he has a decent game there is all sorts of gifs made about it when the premise of the entire thread is about his worth as our main midfielder and the main argument has been that we have nobody else.
Injuries and poor performance have forced Simpson to change up the midfield and we have found others that can carry the can in there and shown that he may not be required for much longer.
The crowing though is he had a great game from the hff (which against GWS should have been expected from priddis) which is not the crux of the discussion.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Priddis isn't versatile and can't play any position but inside mid, but we should expect him to have a great game off a half forward flank

 

[Godfather32]

Priddis isn't versatile and can't play any position but inside mid, but we should expect him to have a great game off a half forward flank

I didn't think it was that good.

 

[Smotie]

Priddis isn't versatile and can't play any position but inside mid, but we should expect him to have a great game off a half forward flank

It wasn't that great. I was being generous calling it great. And he didn't have much opposition to play on him especially since Yeo and shuey were the main mids getting attention.

I would call it a normal game from an AFL player and what should be a normal game from him.

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

The crowing though is he had a great game from the hff (which against GWS should have been expected from priddis) .

Yet priddis is suddenly expendable because our young midfield fired against the same side ?
#doublestandards

when the premise of the entire thread is about his worth as our main midfielder
I

The premise is how much longer can priddis be played for !
The ' main midfielder ' number 1 mid ' number 1 offensive mid ' are tags you priddis haters have given him .
Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true
All I hear from priddis and Simpson is priddis plays his role and our midfield unit .
Not having reliance on priddis to win the ball all the time it great , everyone on this board is happy with that . But we are not in a position depth wise to not have him in the team .

 

[Smotie]

Yet priddis is suddenly expendable because our young midfield fired against the same side ?
#doublestandards


The premise is how much longer can priddis be played for !
The ' main midfielder ' number 1 mid ' number 1 offensive mid ' are tags you priddis haters have given him .
Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true
All I hear from priddis and Simpson is priddis plays his role and our midfield unit .
Not having reliance on priddis to win the ball all the time it great , everyone on this board is happy with that . But we are not in a position depth wise to not have him in the team .

Fair points.
Although I think it is a step in the right direction don't you?

 

[domo]

Yet priddis is suddenly expendable because our young midfield fired against the same side ?
#doublestandards


The premise is how much longer can priddis be played for !
The ' main midfielder ' number 1 mid ' number 1 offensive mid ' are tags you priddis haters have given him .
Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true
All I hear from priddis and Simpson is priddis plays his role and our midfield unit .
Not having reliance on priddis to win the ball all the time it great , everyone on this board is happy with that . But we are not in a position depth wise to not have him in the team .

no mate. That is what the media/fans/supposed experts are saying (TAGS) and have said about priddis. He is the only midfielder doing anything every week at the eagles.. he is carrying the eagles midfield. .. etc etc he's number one in all the bullship stats.. he's the best eagles mid so THEY have been playing him as RUCK ROVER!! they are TAGS given by the "experts" fans and priddites..

"we" have been the ones saying this is simply wrong and madness. It's promoting mediocrity, holding back development and technically flawed in today's game to play a plod like priddis in that position - your MVP rover..

So yes he is expendable! yes he must go. Finally this seems to be happening, they are phasing him out and what a surprise the eagles look like a better midfield.

NOW Please give the new mids the same GRACE you all gave priddis for so long .. will you do that?? no?? You perpetuate these myths about experience, depth and in and under experts.. Which I might add he is crap at anyway!! haha (re: half the time he is floating around off the packs or ball carryers waiting for cheap outlets - as someone has mentioned above)

Any player could play priddis' role when your only measure is acceptance of how poor he is?? Seriously WTF??? Under those conditions there is plenty of DEPTH at the eagles by the low standards you priddites are setting? hypocrites!! #doublestandards. I say in fact there is some depth at the eagles midfield and we won't know until priddis is out of the team

Priddites.. suck it up and SAY IT

"I WAS WRONG"

there feels okay doesn't it???

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

Fair points.
Although I think it is a step in the right direction don't you?

Of course I do . Priddis should be where Scott Thompson of the crows is . Hardened body plays his role but sits 3-5 th in the midfield pecking order with A graders above him .
This is not the fault of priddis

 

[The Dodger]

IMO Scott Thompson should not be playing as well, and he doesn't have as many deficiencies as Priddis. Adelaide it seems thanks to Walsh who was with us under the Worsfold era of Priddis, Priddis and then more Priddis has not surprisingly over valued Thompson's game. He will get you 10 -12 scrubbed clearances a game, nearly 20 contested possessions that lead to slightly more than squat. And although they have a talent like Dangerfield to take the game on and allow Thompson to operate in the background going unnoticed, the players that are around Thompson when the opposition have the ball and can run off him and will do at every opportunity. As the ridiculous media that followed the Bulldogs game for the Crows that ground ball meant everything and if they lost they would jump off a pier.
Well Thomson destroyed the Dogs they only lost the contested possession by 1 and lost by 9 goals...unless 1 contested possession = 9 goals Walsh is going to have to admit that crisp ball movement from less clearances can still win games. Clearance count was 34 - 43 in Crows favour.
This can be covered when you are dominating. When the game is of equal talent or better it is a hamstring. Its deadweight, a player so one dimensional that requires stoppages otherwise they are out of the game is a dinosaur. But pure "stoppage experts" are done IMO. The games best stoppage players don't have that glaring lack of flexibility that Thompson et al have.

 

[domo]

this is scott thompson. This is matt priddis


tell me again if a 'hardened body' is your only criteria for selecting either of these two - why would you pick priddis????

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

this is scott thompson. This is matt priddis
View attachment 130854

Thanks for pointing that out
Can you show me who lance franklin is

 

[domo]

Thanks for pointing that out
Can you show me who lance franklin is

yes
I get that you also mean a game experienced bodied player who can handle the roughness of AFL. However Thompson I would suggest, would be still selected because he brings true bulk and hardness to the game. Can bust tackles and packs.. is a TANK . Can be an "enforcer". Which is what u might want in a hard bodied 4th or 5 mid yes? if that is your criteria?? otherwise why else are they there?
Priddis in this regard? ? ?? ? ? zero

 

[Some Idiot]

IMO Scott Thompson should not be playing as well, and he doesn't have as many deficiencies as Priddis. Adelaide it seems thanks to Walsh who was with us under the Worsfold era of Priddis, Priddis and then more Priddis has not surprisingly over valued Thompson's game. He will get you 10 -12 scrubbed clearances a game, nearly 20 contested possessions that lead to slightly more than squat. And although they have a talent like Dangerfield to take the game on and allow Thompson to operate in the background going unnoticed, the players that are around Thompson when the opposition have the ball and can run off him and will do at every opportunity. As the ridiculous media that followed the Bulldogs game for the Crows that ground ball meant everything and if they lost they would jump off a pier.
Well Thomson destroyed the Dogs they only lost the contested possession by 1 and lost by 9 goals...unless 1 contested possession = 9 goals Walsh is going to have to admit that crisp ball movement from less clearances can still win games. Clearance count was 34 - 43 in Crows favour.
This can be covered when you are dominating. When the game is of equal talent or better it is a hamstring. Its deadweight, a player so one dimensional that requires stoppages otherwise they are out of the game is a dinosaur. But pure "stoppage experts" are done IMO. The games best stoppage players don't have that glaring lack of flexibility that Thompson et al have.

In the dogs/crows game, it was clear that Thompson was the only midfielder actually getting to most contests, the rest of the mids simply weren't working hard enough, as is often the case with young teams. If the other midfielders worked harder than maybe Thompson wouldn't even need to be there to win the ball but it wasn't the case. They could well have lost by 15 goals without his efforts.
Not sure if it's a similar case with Priddis.

 

[ZergMinion]

In the dogs/crows game, it was clear that Thompson was the only midfielder actually getting to most contests, the rest of the mids simply weren't working hard enough, as is often the case with young teams. If the other midfielders worked harder than maybe Thompson wouldn't even need to be there to win the ball but it wasn't the case. They could well have lost by 15 goals without his efforts.
Not sure if it's a similar case with Priddis.

Priddis gets to a lot of contests despite his speed because he's always moving and knows where to run. Hard work has never been one of his problems.

 

[Smotie]

Priddis gets to a lot of contests despite his speed because he's always moving and knows where to run. Hard work has never been one of his problems.

Priddis' game relies on stoppages. I think this is why we tend to play a lock down type congested game, most of the games I have watched are like this. If we don't Priddis gets left behind and gets left jogging between the 50m arcs.

When we play an open game style or the opposition forces us to we are cut to ribbons because Priddis and our other slow plodders can't keep up.
This didn't happen with Yeo etc against GWS partly because of the disposal under pressure was better and partly because there was more leg speed than we usually have from our midfield.