Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[stefoid]

How many of these players did we actually have a chance of selecting? I've bolded the ones that were avaliable that we could have taken. I'm not giving Thompson a note because we had a far superior full back on our list in Lake and I'm not giving McKenzie a nod when everyone passed on him multiple times which indicates that he isn't that good.

But at some point we have to acknowledge that of the 30 or so best performed keypos currently playing the game, we dont have any.

FF two years and Boyd will be one, but that was too expensive an exercise to repeat.

 

[womble54]

I would happily overpay in draft picks for 1 more solid KPP. E.g two first round picks (say 2016 and 2017) and the 2016 2nd rounder for May (GC). I think 1 more very high caliber KPP beyond Boyd would set us for a flag. Would have done it this year but no way GC would have traded him given he is under contract.

I'm all for using this years for best available as I don't really expect to see an A grade tall at 25(ish) where our first pick will end up. I don't really understand why we did the 2 for 1 with carlton but let's see how we go.....

 

[BRWB]

D.Talia, Carlisile, Taylor, Hurley, Ryder, T.McDonald, M.Johnson, Frawley, S.Thompson, McKenzie, A.Carlile, Hansen, Lonergan, Gunston, T.Lynch, Westhoff, Darling, Walker, Cameron, Dixon, Schultz, Bruce, Tomlinson.

We need to get better at identifying key position players and drafting them.

This point is key - the good talls are there every draft.

Dal just hasn't identified them. It's his job and he hasn't done it in six years of drafting.

Again no one expects us to draft talls just because they're tall. But I would have thought actually identifying and drafting good talls when they always around is a key part of Dal's job.

 

[womble54]

I posted KPF's earlier so i thought to add balance i may as well
post KPD's to from 2000 to 2014 along with their pick numbers.

2014- Caleb Marchbank (6), Jake Lever (14), Sam Durdin (16),
Hugh Goddard (21), Daniel Nielson (25), Oscar McDonald (53),
Zaine Cordy F/S (62), Logan Austin (69)
2013- Alex Pearce (37), Cameron Giles (39), Jonathon Marsh (77)
2012- Kristian Jaksch (12), Aidan Corr (14), Marco Paperone (23),
Tom Clurey (29), Tanner Smith (36), Sam Siggins (62)
2011- Henry Schade (24),Todd Elton (26), Joel Hamling (32),
Michael Talia (39), James Sellar (54)
2010- Matthew Watson (18), Tom McDonald (53), Matthew Spangher (73)
2009- Daniel Talia (13), Jake Carlisle (24), Lukas Markovic (63)
2008- Michael Hurley (5), Phil Davis (10), Ryan Schoenmakers (16),
Jackson Trengove (22)
2007- Lachlan Henderson (8), Robbie Tarrant (15), Harry Taylor (17),
Alex Rance (18), Tayte Pears (23), Scott Thompson (37),
Cale Hooker (54)
2006- Lachlan Hansen (3), Ben Reid (8), Nathan Brown (10),
James Frawley (12), Mitch Brown (16), Eric McKenzie (29),
Mark Austin (35), Justin Westhoff (71), James Sellar the 1st (14)
2005- Matthew Spangher the 1st (34), Alipate Carlile (44)
2004- Tom Williams (6), Lynden Dunn (15)
2003- Troy Chaplin (15), Zac Dawson (41), Sam Fisher (55)
2002- Stephen Gilham (16), Jared Rivers (26), Daniel Merrett (30),
Cameron Wight (49)
2001- Graham Polak (4), Matthew Maguire (21), Brian Lake (71)
2000- Jason Cloke F/S (19), Ted Richards (27)

Yes pups i left off Lewis Roberts-Thomson high pick hate the hyphen.
Notice the lack of really high picks compared with the KPF's, but
such is the lot of defenders. I left a few guys off who were part of
the original empire teams and a few spuds.

So many crap C - D graders on this list. You can see why we would rather overpay to trade for a good one rather than burn up picks hunting for the proverbial needle in the haystack. I expect both McKays and Collins to be pick busts this year.

 

[womble54]

This point is key - the good talls are there every draft.

Dal just hasn't identified them. It's his job and he hasn't done it in six years of drafting.

Again no one expects us to draft talls just because they're tall. But I would have thought actually identifying and drafting good talls when they always around is a key part of Dal's job.

Just can't agree. The key point is there are so many crap talls that get taken we should trade for one we know will be decent. I'm a huge supporter of the path we have taken to get Boyd and Hamling. Fletcher is a massive bonus through the rookie draft and Campbell could well be a good pick too. Still only young.

 

[BRWB]

Just can't agree. The key point is there are so many crap talls that get taken we should trade for one we know will be decent. I'm a huge supporter of the path we have taken to get Boyd and Hamling. Fletcher is a massive bonus through the rookie draft and Campbell could well be a good pick too. Still only young.

Obviously don't agree

Most KPs are firmly established by year 3 or 4. Ours aren't. While hopeful I'm not confident.

Trading or FAing in the talls we need is high risk. No way we got Boyd but for Griffen's treachery IMO. Two big risks, one we can't attract anyone of note in their prime (we never have before, and we just aren't a destination club like say Hawthorn); and two we may have to break the bank to get a quality tall.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out over the years.

 

[womble54]

Obviously don't agree

Most KPs are firmly established by year 3 or 4. Ours aren't. While hopeful I'm not confident.

Trading or FAing in the talls we need is high risk. No way we got Boyd but for Griffen's treachery IMO. Two big risks, one we can't attract anyone of note in their prime (we never have before, and we just aren't a destination club like say Hawthorn); and two we may have to break the bank to get a quality tall.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out over the years.

It's bloody hard with a club that has the history ours does to attract absolute high end talent without overpaying. We have no ANZAC day game to sell (Trelor/Adams/Aish) we don't have the historical success of the Hawks (Lake/Frawley) nor the destinational attraction of Geelong.

However. We've never have a list with the level of high talent that: Bont, Stringer, Libba, Boyd, Dahlhaus, Wallis and Macrae presents either. If you are a young talent who doesn't wish to snort coke nor live in the shitholes of western sydney but who does want to win a flag and have a great comradery then we absolutely must be attractive right now.

This is a monster year for our club. We can't afford to take a step backwards with our draw, the Friday night games and the general interest in our style of play. 2016 is all about attracting the 1 or 2 final pieces in our puzzle via trade to launch a massive go in 2017. Boyd has to start to stand up this year and Libba needs a successful comeback so that a Haynes or a May will take a serious look at us and go whooaaa. Yep - I could win a couple of flags with these lads and $700k (rather than $1million) is a-ok.

 

[Bazza Bulldog]

How many of these players did we actually have a chance of selecting? I've bolded the ones that were avaliable that we could have taken. I'm not giving Thompson a note because we had a far superior full back on our list in Lake and I'm not giving McKenzie a nod when everyone passed on him multiple times which indicates that he isn't that good.

Let's review this with who we actually selected

2002 Lonergan - Will Minson (Cam Faulkner earlier)
2003 Pre Season M.Johnson- Jade Rawlings
2005 A.Carlile - Dylan Addison
2006 Frawley (Reiwoldt) - Everitt
2006 Westhoff - Malcom Lynch (Brennan Stack earlier)
2007 Taylor - Jarrad Grant ... not to mention Danger and Cyril
2009 Gunston + Carlisle - Christian Howard (+Nat Fyfe) ... no need to comment

I think the choices speak for themselves. 2006, 2007 & 2009 ... simply way off the mark.

 

[razrblayd]

Let's review this with who we actually selected

2002 Lonergan - Will Minson (Cam Faulkner earlier)
2003 Pre Season M.Johnson- Jade Rawlings
2005 A.Carlile - Dylan Addison
2006 Frawley (Reiwoldt) - Everitt
2006 Westhoff - Malcom Lynch (Brennan Stack earlier)
2007 Taylor - Jarrad Grant ... not to mention Danger and Cyril
2009 Gunston + Carlisle - Christian Howard (+Nat Fyfe) ... no need to comment

I think the choices speak for themselves. 2006, 2007 & 2009 ... simply way off the mark.

and this year we are going to go hard for talls in a draft seemingly bereft of talent

 

[BRWB]

It's bloody hard with a club that has the history ours does to attract absolute high end talent without overpaying. We have no ANZAC day game to sell (Trelor/Adams/Aish) we don't have the historical success of the Hawks (Lake/Frawley) nor the destinational attraction of Geelong.

However. We've never have a list with the level of high talent that: Bont, Stringer, Libba, Boyd, Dahlhaus, Wallis and Macrae presents either. If you are a young talent who doesn't wish to snort coke nor live in the shitholes of western sydney but who does want to win a flag and have a great comradery then we absolutely must be attractive right now.

This is a monster year for our club. We can't afford to take a step backwards with our draw, the Friday night games and the general interest in our style of play. 2016 is all about attracting the 1 or 2 final pieces in our puzzle via trade to launch a massive go in 2017. Boyd has to start to stand up this year and Libba needs a successful comeback so that a Haynes or a May will take a serious look at us and go whooaaa. Yep - I could win a couple of flags with these lads and $700k (rather than $1million) is a-ok.

While I hope you are right and established tall talent will be attracted to us. To rely on it happening when it has never happened before is a far higher risk strategy than spending the odd decent pick on a potential quality tall IMO. And yeah while I'm not sure we've ever drafted a decent tall with a high pick either, we have at least drafted decent talls over the years albeit with crap picks (Lake and Grant spring to mind).

And anyway, if our head recruiter is such a gun why shouldn't we (and he) back him in to recruit a decent tall rather than rely on talls in their prime magically appearing (something that's never occurred before)?

But honestly, to get talls I'd like to see the following occur:

P20 - best talent
P21 & 30 - best young or mature tall
P51 - best talent

Our window opens as early as next year. No young 18 yr old tall we recruit will be ready to make an impact then. So we are going to need mature tall cover in the likely event that Rough and Fletch are injured (and they are seemingly injured every season).

I'd also like to see at two rookie picks on talls.

 

[Dav1d]

But honestly, to get talls I'd like to see the following occur:

P20 - best talent
P21 & 30 - best young or mature tall
P51 - best talent

I'd also like to see at two rookie picks on talls.

So you want 4 talls at the national draft, then two more at the rookie draft?

I'm seeing something like 20- tall, 21- best available, 30- best available, 51(which should be less, with academy bids)-mature tall

that would be plenty of talls & maybe even too many, depending on what we did at the rookie draft
we could still go after some talls next year to, wouldn't want to have an overabundance of talls now & not have a spot to warrant selecting them then, eh?

 

[King Harold]

While I hope you are right and established tall talent will be attracted to us. To rely on it happening when it has never happened before is a far higher risk strategy than spending the odd decent pick on a potential quality tall IMO. And yeah while I'm not sure we've ever drafted a decent tall with a high pick either, we have at least drafted decent talls over the years albeit with crap picks (Lake and Grant spring to mind).

And anyway, if our head recruiter is such a gun why shouldn't we (and he) back him in to recruit a decent tall rather than rely on talls in their prime magically appearing (something that's never occurred before)?

But honestly, to get talls I'd like to see the following occur:

P20 - best talent
P21 & 30 - best young or mature tall
P51 - best talent

Our window opens as early as next year. No young 18 yr old tall we recruit will be ready to make an impact then. So we are going to need mature tall cover in the likely event that Rough and Fletch are injured (and they are seemingly injured every season).

I'd also like to see at two rookie picks on talls.

Agree with all that Ayce. If we have to pull the trigger early on one of those mature agers , so be it.
I have very little confidence with our key backs as well . Regardless of injury , both Roberts and Rough are hardly key backs you can rest easy with.

 

[BRWB]

So you want 4 talls at the national draft, then two more at the rookie draft?

I'm seeing something like 20- tall, 21- best available, 30- best available, 51(which should be less, with academy bids)-mature tall

Not quite 2 picks are best talent which could be tall or small. It's possibly an over correction in selecting talls. Kind of like selecting good ball users last year....

It just seems the year to do it, where from many accounts, the mid depth just doesn't stand out this year, and that there are a few more talls being spoken of.

But hey you watch them, is what I've said there a fair assessment?

Also those people advocating pure best available that could result in say four mid to small picks. Go on to our best 22 poll thread and look at the names that are missing out.

 

[Dav1d]

Not quite 2 picks are best talent which could be tall or small. It's possibly an over correction in selecting talls. Kind of like selecting good ball users last year....

It just seems the year to do it, where from many accounts, the mid depth just doesn't stand out this year, and that there are a few more talls being spoken of.

But hey you watch them, is what I've said there a fair assessment?

Also those people advocating pure best available that could result in say four mid to small picks. Go on to our best 22 poll thread and look at the names that are missing out.

I wouldn't be pissed either way
but next season I might be(if we went ALL tall), especially if a tall goes on to become a gun
I'm sure that you & many would be as well, then some would say how it is just the luck of the draw.etc etc

last year we nominated Moore, apparently were interested in Wright. Ended up with Boyd, linked by some reputable posters to Ben McKay
it isn't as if Dalrymple doesn't want talls...

 

[bobs head soup]

Hypothetically.

What if our recruiters have determined that in this draft there are 5 talls that are good quality AFL prospects (some drafts there are no more than this), but all 5 are taken before our first pick?

If our selectors honestly believe by pick 20 that all the good talls are gone (bar a prospective ruckman or 2 that are 5 years from offering us anything of substance), what do we have our recruiters do then?

 

[Dav1d]

Hypothetically.

What if our recruiters have determined that in this draft there are 5 talls that are good quality AFL prospects (some drafts there are no more than this), but all 5 are taken before our first pick?

If our selectors honestly believe by pick 20 that all the good talls are gone (bar a prospective ruckman or 2 that are 5 years from offering us anything of substance), what do we have our recruiters do then?

Sorry Dav1d is very sleepy right now

 

[BRWB]

Hypothetically.

What if our recruiters have determined that in this draft there are 5 talls that are good quality AFL prospects (some drafts there are no more than this), but all 5 are taken before our first pick?

If our selectors honestly believe by pick 20 that all the good talls are gone (bar a prospective ruckman or 2 that are 5 years from offering us anything of substance), what do we have our recruiters do then?

Hypothetically, you'd have to say they misjudged things in trading away P11 wouldn't you?

You'd also have to question if our recruiters can spot tall talent that well and/or manage our draft position effectively, if they again couldn't identify quality talls at our pick.

Obviously if they don't think a tall will make it then why pick them? But I'd be questioning the thinking that led us to this conclusion on a number of fronts - if it occurred.

 

[womble54]

While I hope you are right and established tall talent will be attracted to us. To rely on it happening when it has never happened before is a far higher risk strategy than spending the odd decent pick on a potential quality tall IMO. And yeah while I'm not sure we've ever drafted a decent tall with a high pick either, we have at least drafted decent talls over the years albeit with crap picks (Lake and Grant spring to mind).

And anyway, if our head recruiter is such a gun why shouldn't we (and he) back him in to recruit a decent tall rather than rely on talls in their prime magically appearing (something that's never occurred before)?

But honestly, to get talls I'd like to see the following occur:

P20 - best talent
P21 & 30 - best young or mature tall
P51 - best talent

Our window opens as early as next year. No young 18 yr old tall we recruit will be ready to make an impact then. So we are going to need mature tall cover in the likely event that Rough and Fletch are injured (and they are seemingly injured every season).

I'd also like to see at two rookie picks on talls.

I do get it. Whether Dalrymple is a gun at selecting talls (and he has shown little evidence to date that he is!) or not.....if the talls still available at our picks are rated by the club as being Matthew Watson, Michael Talia and Tayte Pears caliber, are people still saying we have to pull the trigger just because we lack talls? Cos at 20 and 21 it's highly likely that is what's on the board. I hate this years talls except the top 2. If we get a Marcovic/Watson combo in desperation and a good 188cm mid/forward was still available I would spew. Thankfully I don't think Dalrymple gives a flying wombat and will go best available as he sees it for at least pick "20" (25 Whatevs). If we were deperate to take a tall I think we would have held onto 11 to ensure the best one possible was still around.

Likely to be a lot of disappointed tall advocates come draft day methinks

 

[womble54]

Hypothetically, you'd have to say they misjudged things in trading away P11 wouldn't you?

We can agree on this!

 

[go you pups]

I posted KPF's earlier so i thought to add balance i may as well
post KPD's to from 2000 to 2014 along with their pick numbers.

2014- Caleb Marchbank (6), Jake Lever (14), Sam Durdin (16),
Hugh Goddard (21), Daniel Nielson (25), Oscar McDonald (53),
Zaine Cordy F/S (62), Logan Austin (69)
2013- Alex Pearce (37), Cameron Giles (39), Jonathon Marsh (77)
2012- Kristian Jaksch (12), Aidan Corr (14), Marco Paperone (23),
Tom Clurey (29), Tanner Smith (36), Sam Siggins (62)
2011- Henry Schade (24),Todd Elton (26), Joel Hamling (32),
Michael Talia (39), James Sellar (54)
2010- Matthew Watson (18), Tom McDonald (53), Matthew Spangher (73)
2009- Daniel Talia (13), Jake Carlisle (24), Lukas Markovic (63)
2008- Michael Hurley (5), Phil Davis (10), Ryan Schoenmakers (16),
Jackson Trengove (22)
2007- Lachlan Henderson (8), Robbie Tarrant (15), Harry Taylor (17),
Alex Rance (18), Tayte Pears (23), Scott Thompson (37),
Cale Hooker (54)
2006- Lachlan Hansen (3), Ben Reid (8), Nathan Brown (10),
James Frawley (12), Mitch Brown (16), Eric McKenzie (29),
Mark Austin (35), Justin Westhoff (71), James Sellar the 1st (14)
2005- Matthew Spangher the 1st (34), Alipate Carlile (44)
2004- Tom Williams (6), Lynden Dunn (15)
2003- Troy Chaplin (15), Zac Dawson (41), Sam Fisher (55)
2002- Stephen Gilham (16), Jared Rivers (26), Daniel Merrett (30),
Cameron Wight (49)
2001- Graham Polak (4), Matthew Maguire (21), Brian Lake (71)
2000- Jason Cloke F/S (19), Ted Richards (27)

Yes pups i left off Lewis Roberts-Thomson high pick hate the hyphen.
Notice the lack of really high picks compared with the KPF's, but
such is the lot of defenders. I left a few guys off who were part of
the original empire teams and a few spuds.

Darcy Gardiner ?

 

[go you pups]

I don't want to mash the button on this Essendon spambot by the way as I'm no button masher, but whoever it is needs a permabanning or some shit

 

[go you pups]

Let's review this with who we actually selected

2002 Lonergan - Will Minson (Cam Faulkner earlier)
2003 Pre Season M.Johnson- Jade Rawlings
2005 A.Carlile - Dylan Addison
2006 Frawley (Reiwoldt) - Everitt
2006 Westhoff - Malcom Lynch (Brennan Stack earlier)
2007 Taylor - Jarrad Grant ... not to mention Danger and Cyril
2009 Gunston + Carlisle - Christian Howard (+Nat Fyfe) ... no need to comment

I think the choices speak for themselves. 2006, 2007 & 2009 ... simply way off the mark.

2005-09 were horrible draft years for us on a number of factors (duds, soft outside types, flight risks, unloyal types etc) and a big factor into why we fell off a cliff after 2010, but we also put our faith in the wrong sort at the time also and didn't prioritise picking talls until 2008, which I feel we may fall victim of again

Only Easton Wood and Jordan Roughead remain with us from those 5 years of drafts, IIRC St Kilda didn't fair much better either

 

[go you pups]

and this year we are going to go hard for talls in a draft seemingly bereft of talent

Theres heaps of talls dude

There's barely any great midfielders or X Factor types which imo is the major knock on this draft

Vic Metro and WA were shithouse in the Nationals and there are quite a few good academy kids who won't really be open for everyone to select also, which are further factors that why the media emphasises that this draft is "shallow"

We need talls and perhaps another rebounder, there WILL be these types available at our picks I'd imagine

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Best talent available and stock up with talls on the rookie list. Redpath started life as a rookie, so did Fletch and Roberts I think. I thought we were looking at a few mature players in the WAFL.

 

[topdog69]

The only player I want drafted national and rookie are Ben McKay ,Matt Flynn,Sam Skinner ,Darcy Mcpcherson from rookie one,Matt Shaw was touted a top pick 5 in the year he got drafted but was Injured Wce player Brown early in that season,Darcy Cameron,,Karl Brown from the Calder Cannon or Danial Reddell ,Sam Collins from Box Hill Hawks!