Autopsy Round 17 Loss v Geelong

[scon]

Why wouldn't our new assistants from a hugely successful club tell Ross that we shouldn't go into games with one hand tied behind our backs.

Are you saying they've deliberately stymied us??
Career suicide??

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Are you saying they've deliberately stymied us??
Career suicide??

Not saying that at all.
What I am saying is Hawthorn don't use a five man forward line and it's fair to assume they would have noticed the criticism aimed at us for our lack of scoring and made the connection.

 

[Unique Name]

Our best games last year were when we played 3 Tabs and had a 3 talls 6 man forward line.

Even though Tabs wasn't that effective on his own his presence forced the opposition backline to be accountable and stopped them double/triple teaming us.

Last night was the opposite, apart from our first qtr fast breaks where we were able to get 1v1's our forwards got double teamed every time we went forward.

 

[meima]

I can understand regarding six man attack mindset , who do we put in ? Clarke at jogging/walking pace, hannath cant turn fast, yarren no fitness

 

[Fred Ziffel]

I can understand regarding six man attack mindset , who do we put in ? Clarke at jogging/walking pace, hannath cant turn fast, yarren no fitness

No!!
Just need to start the forward six we name there.

 

[Proud SJW]

Sutty picked up Danger when he went forward in the first half which wasn't very often. Spurr had him in the second half.

Re his disposal, you're exaggerating. He muffed the kick to Mz but other than that his disposal was good. Shero muffed a couple from memory. Most players had 1 or 2 and do in most games.

He and Shero will never be elite. They're both stock standard, B graders or average AFL players that make up 80% of the comp. Some supporters expect too much. They want every player in their team to be elite, A graders or champions (the 20%)

I'm not one of those supporters, but I saw two or three in a row that were kicked badly coming out of defence by Sutcliffe. that one where Gu got marked over his shoulders, was the result of a bad kick - it was in the air far too long, the Geelong guy covered half the ground getting there.
I've never been one to hang the B graders, you should know that. I've even backed up D Pearce before several times... although these days I'm beginning to reverse my thoughts on him. I'm not yelling drop Sutcliffe to anyone - just saying there was more than one, more like three in a row in the middle of the game that cost us probably two goals against. You might be right, it's possible I'm seeing Sutliffe when it was Sheridan, I'll watch it again to be sure.

We're caught coming out of defence too many times with nowhere to go. Most teams seem to keep a few in the middle of the ground just waiting for that blind kick, and it comes straight back in far more often than it should. There is always a bloody conga line of the opposition forwards and none of ours waiting in the middle for that kick, happens every game. Or we run it out, get to the middle and then have to play keepsie off for a couple of kicks to allow time for our guys to get forward... and as soon as we start doing that, I get this sinking feeling again.

To my mind, Pavlich should never come past centre half forward, and Tabs and Ballantyne should never come past the middle. Ever. The most likely result is you'd end up with both in a one on one situation if we run it out of the backline, and I'd trust either to get the ball most of the time under those circumstances. Pav might even last another season playing like that. It's bloody agony watching Hill or Walters coming out of defence with no one up forward to kick to. Agony, I tells ya.

 

[E Shed]

Ross was criticised at Saint Kilda back in the day for stacking the forward line with talls, playing Kosi, Roo and whoever else they had running around back then. I'm pretty sure if we had 3 decent talls they'd all be playing. We don't. We have Pav, Tabs (who is only learning the game) and Griffin who tries his guts out. Everyone else is either injured or useless.

I thought both Sheridan and Sutcliffe were good last night. They really took the game on and tried to make things happen (as did a lot of players last night). Like someone has already said they aren't superstars just good honest players. Everyone is prepared to give Crozier a free pass because we are so relieved he's not a complete dud yet he was picked much higher than Sutty in the same draft. Sutty has played a lot more footy and is far more accomplished at this point.

 

[Proud SJW]

Sutty had a good couple of years there, it's just this season (mostly) he's been frustrating. I don't expect it to be a permanent situation.
I think Crozier is ahead of him on the strength of this season, but not overall.

 

[Proud SJW]

Why cant we try out hughes ,mora and tucker in sutty and sherro role . Obviously this season both perform in range of b- to c grade rather than a b like you said .

Come on, man. Mora's hardly played any footy, Tucker showed a bit in patches but wasn't noteworthy. Hughes I haven't seen enough of to make any calls on, but those other two aren't ready to replace either Sutcliffe nor Sheridan at this point, on match fitness alone.

 

[Righteo]

I'm not one of those supporters, but I saw two or three in a row that were kicked badly coming out of defence by Sutcliffe. that one where Gu got marked over his shoulders, was the result of a bad kick - it was in the air far too long, the Geelong guy covered half the ground getting there.
I've never been one to hang the B graders, you should know that. I've even backed up D Pearce before several times... although these days I'm beginning to reverse my thoughts on him. I'm not yelling drop Sutcliffe to anyone - just saying there was more than one, more like three in a row in the middle of the game that cost us probably two goals against. You might be right, it's possible I'm seeing Sutliffe when it was Sheridan, I'll watch it again to be sure.

Definitely Sutcliffe. I said earlier I've been one of his biggest supporters since day 1 but defending him has become untenable. He used to be a lovely kick but I honestly feel more assured when Danyle Pearce has it these days

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Ross was criticised at Saint Kilda back in the day for stacking the forward line with talls, playing Kosi, Roo and whoever else they had running around back then. I'm pretty sure if we had 3 decent talls they'd all be playing. We don't. We have Pav, Tabs (who is only learning the game) and Griffin who tries his guts out. Everyone else is either injured or useless.

I thought both Sheridan and Sutcliffe were good last night. They really took the game on and tried to make things happen (as did a lot of players last night). Like someone has already said they aren't superstars just good honest players. Everyone is prepared to give Crozier a free pass because we are so relieved he's not a complete dud yet he was picked much higher than Sutty in the same draft. Sutty has played a lot more footy and is far more accomplished at this point.

I reckon both Sutty and Sherro are better suited to midfield roles. But we have other players for those spots so it's almost like, play them in defence just to get them into the side.
It always surprised me that Ross held Sherro in higher regard than Paul Duffield.

 

[Proud SJW]

Definitely Sutcliffe. I said earlier I've been one of his biggest supporters since day 1 but defending him has become untenable. He used to be a lovely kick but I honestly feel more assured when Danyle Pearce has it these days

Well, we can believe Sutcliffe has upside then, right?
We've seen him play far better than recently. Perhaps it's the lack of experienced heads down back (Johnson, and the badly missed McPharlin), but I always thought he'd turn out a lot like Duffield eventually.

I'm watching it again now. 1st quarter, 16:07 left, Walters coming down the wing to half forward with the ball and no one to kick to. Gets caught on the boundary, Pavlich saves the day by running past and taking the handball. Looks great, right?
But what the hell was Pavlich doing that far back to begin with??? Could have been a goal if he'd been there for Walters to kick it to instead.
I really feel like Pav is being misused at the moment, can think of no reason he'd have to be that far back. He's still good for another year if he can just stay forward with (hopefully) one defender, and I don't know if coaching or Pavlich are the reason he's that far up the ground. He's best in a marking contest up forward with as few defenders as possible, and has little value being at half back or on a wing when we're coming out of defence.

 

[Righteo]

I reckon both Sutty and Sherro are better suited to midfield roles. But we have other players for those spots so it's almost like, play them in defence just to get them into the side.

Spot on Fred and for that reason alone I wouldn't be averse to them being offered as trade bait. I don't think they (Sutty especially) will reach their full potential at Freo.

 

[E Shed]

It always surprised me that Ross held Sherro in higher regard than Paul Duffield.

Ross has some weird ideas about players that aren't obvious to those of us that only watch from the outside.
The fact that Suban & Mayne are undroppable is beyond me. Mayne is kind of ok at the moment but for ages he was beyond useless as to be a liability. Suban meanwhile is lucky to crack 10 possessions these days but just lines up every week not matter what.

Duffield was under-rated by a lot of people here too. Such a sweet kick and decision maker. We'd kill for him about now.

 

[ydraw]

Ross was criticised at Saint Kilda back in the day for stacking the forward line with talls, playing Kosi, Roo and whoever else they had running around back then. I'm pretty sure if we had 3 decent talls they'd all be playing. We don't. We have Pav, Tabs (who is only learning the game) and Griffin who tries his guts out. Everyone else is either injured or useless.

Zac Clarke is just as good as Griffin. He dominates every week when he goes back to the WAFL. Being dropped all the time can't be helping. Every time we go in with 1 ruck we get smashed. Griffin has hardly set the world on fire this year.

Clarke needs to play until Sandilands returns, it's really not that difficult. Maybe an extended run of games will help. Maybe not. But we have no other choice.

 

[E Shed]

Zac Clarke is just as good as Griffin. He dominates every week when he goes back to the WAFL. Being dropped all the time can't be helping. Every time we go in with 1 ruck we get smashed. Griffin has hardly set the world on fire this year.

Clarke needs to play until Sandilands returns, it's really not that difficult. Maybe an extended run of games will help. Maybe not. But we have no other choice.

The fact Lyon is electing to go with just Griffin suggests Clarke's efforts of late haven't been up to scratch.

 

[freoextra]

The fact Lyon is electing to go with just Griffin suggests Clarke's efforts of late haven't been up to scratch.

Watching Clarkes efforts have been an even stronger indicator.

Lyon nearly passes out with frustration whenever he is asked to comment on Clarke or Hannath, pretty clear what their futures are.

 

[Proud SJW]

The fact Lyon is electing to go with just Griffin suggests Clarke's efforts of late haven't been up to scratch.

And he's right. Griff wasn't inspiring this week either, but he's solid and you know what you're going to get. Clarke is one of those players who should be better than he is, and it seems to be a heart problem.

 

[believe_it]

Ross has some weird ideas about players that aren't obvious to those of us that only watch from the outside.
The fact that Suban & Mayne are undroppable is beyond me. Mayne is kind of ok at the moment but for ages he was beyond useless as to be a liability. Suban meanwhile is lucky to crack 10 possessions these days but just lines up every week not matter what.

Duffield was under-rated by a lot of people here too. Such a sweet kick and decision maker. We'd kill for him about now.

He was very good at distributing the ball from defence. As yet we haven't replaced him with anyone of similar ability in doing this.

 

[Proud SJW]

Probably flogging a dead horse by now, but with 9:30 remaining in the second, why was it Pavlich trying to chase down Cockatoo for that almost goal from half back?
Another theory - it's not Lyon telling him to, but Pavlich with the understanding of the game, following through because he's the only one with the smarts to read the play?

As a side note, in the first, without Walters we'd have not even been close. First quarter was our highest scoring, but not the best quarter we played.

Blakely is looking right at home at league level too.

 

[Righteo]

Probably flogging a dead horse by now, but with 9:30 remaining in the second, why was it Pavlich trying to chase down Cockatoo for that almost goal from half back?
Another theory - it's not Lyon telling him to, but Pavlich with the understanding of the game, following through because he's the only one with the smarts to read the play?

As a side note, in the first, without Walters we'd have not even been close. First quarter was our highest scoring, but not the best quarter we played.

Blakely is looking right at home at league level too.

Walters and also Hill were ridiculously good in that first quarter.

 

[stax on the mull]

Ross has some weird ideas about players that aren't obvious to those of us that only watch from the outside.
The fact that Suban & Mayne are undroppable is beyond me. Mayne is kind of ok at the moment but for ages he was beyond useless as to be a liability. Suban meanwhile is lucky to crack 10 possessions these days but just lines up every week not matter what.

Duffield was under-rated by a lot of people here too. Such a sweet kick and decision maker. We'd kill for him about now.

Suban was dropped for a couple of weeks earlier in the year.

 

[kingswood71]

We're caught coming out of defence too many times with nowhere to go. Most teams seem to keep a few in the middle of the ground just waiting for that blind kick, and it comes straight back in far more often than it should. There is always a bloody conga line of the opposition forwards and none of ours waiting in the middle for that kick, happens every game. Or we run it out, get to the middle and then have to play keepsie off for a couple of kicks to allow time for our guys to get forward... and as soon as we start doing that, I get this sinking feeling again.

Exactly! This is the part of our game that infuriates me the most! We win the ball in the opposition 50, but then we have to slowly get it out....Seems there is little to get it to thru the centre. Happens time and time again. Defensive mark or contested possession, then 2 or 3 more possessions to get it moving forward, or a blind kick to a contest or an opposition player.
I love Crozier in defense, but maybe he would be better on a wing to be the link up player out of defense. We look good when Hilly takes on that role.

 

[blue shark]

Ross has some weird ideas about players that aren't obvious to those of us that only watch from the outside.
The fact that Suban & Mayne are undroppable is beyond me. Mayne is kind of ok at the moment but for ages he was beyond useless as to be a liability. Suban meanwhile is lucky to crack 10 possessions these days but just lines up every week not matter what.

Duffield was under-rated by a lot of people here too. Such a sweet kick and decision maker. We'd kill for him about now.

Ross Lyon is his own worst enemy, he loves players who give great effort, and backs, shows too much loyalty to
players out of form, need a run in the two's, or have games under their belt.
He has never been in a situation like this before, could be the best thing for him, like Clarkson who had to rebuild,
become totally ruthless, and even prove to their CEO that he could win them a GF.
Lyon has always had to find foot soldiers, due to lack of quality picks, always having teams around the eight, good
teams, but not great, lets hope with a fresh canvas he can create a masterpiece.

 

[free at last]

yeah I worry sometimes he is too heavily invested in stats and doesn't give any opportunity or weight to what is in front of your eyes.
Like last year, keeping the same team together because we kept getting 4 points each week but the team looked lacklustre and unimaginative.
Last night we looked best when we moved the ball quickly and we scored heavily but he preferred the footy where we didn't score but the numbers looked good. Like you say he thought we were lucky/unlucky because the numbers told one story but the scoreboard another.

I say fah-urk the numbers. you make your own luck and fortune favours the brave.
Instead of trying to make the team conform to the numbers do what works, give the players their heads.

If Mark Harvey was 90% inspiration and 10% perspiration Lyon is the other way around and I wish we could be somewhere in the middle. Have room for the crazy inspirational stuff as well the hard work and preparation.

and I'll take this opportunity to say again how amazing Hill and Walters were last night. I've never seen Hill play with that confidence and authority and Walters was just doing the incredible stuff all night.

Walters is like watching a cross between Wingard/Cyril.