Bryce Gibbs and his personal issues

[My name geoff]

remember when carlton last won a flag? they cheated the salary cap to stop SA players returning home? Carlton have history of being rotten to the core and not being able to compete in this league on level terms. Remember Carltank?

I actually feel sorry for thier fans, thier club is forcing them to follow a player that doesn't want to be there. That can't be good for morale. Its rather selfish and will lead to more implosions.

Having said that, they had a right to do what they did and should not get any help when it goes balls up. No more priority picks, no financial bail outs, no soft draws to bring back the members and manufacture 'wins"..

Didnt the crows just get done for cheating a few years ago??

I'm pretty sure Carlton learnt its lesson at the turn of the century, and most other clubs would have learnt also from the iron fisted example the afl made of the blues.

Not the crows though.

Whether it's poaching contracted players, Club executive's constant rumor fabrication and conflicts of interest in the media or breaching the salary cap, they are still hell bent on cheating the system

 

[Papa G]

You have to give the Crows heirachy some credit here. They didn't give up 2 first rounders because they realised that even with Gibbs they were not a premiership threat. This year absolutely everything went right for them and they could only finish 5th. 15 of the 22 had career best years and zero injuries. That will not happen again. Kudos to Fages and the gang.

 

[baldandbroke]

You have to give the Crows heirachy some credit here. They didn't give up 2 first rounders because they realised that even with Gibbs they were not a premiership threat. This year absolutely everything went right for them and they could only finish 5th. 15 of the 22 had career best years and zero injuries. That will not happen again. Kudos to Fages and the gang.

Ahhh Papa, the fear still strong I see. So you've stopped calling our players chimps and are now praying that Adelaide fall in 2017? I wonder why you have so much to say about the Crows... Could it be that your team has very little to shout about?

 

[JeffDunne]

Is that right? Can you provide a link to any artilcle to show Carlton getting caught cheating the salary cap for the 1995 season.

Wow! I would like to see some evidence, but I'll take your word for it. Your emotional state and personal thoughts on Carlton look to be extremely accurate.

Remind me to get my knowledge and education from you.

And I guess you assume Gibbs has some beef with the club for not getting traded, even though he has confirmed of his appreciation with how the club have handled the situation and that he'd be happy to hang on for another season on a 5-year contract.

This never happened, best to do some research first before making up history. Only one club has won a premiership while being over the salary cap and it wasn't Carlton.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-16/former-carlton-star-williams-in-150000-tax-probe/1479562

In a statement to the Herald-Sun, Williams confirmed he had an ongoing dispute with the ATO involving payments made to him by Carlton between 1993 and 1995.

He said the payments were made outside his salary as part of his playing contract with Carlton and he regarded them as fringe benefits at the time.

Carlton supporters.

 

[Papa G]

Ahhh Papa, the fear still strong I see. So you've stopped calling our players chimps and are now praying that Adelaide fall in 2017? I wonder why you have so much to say about the Crows... Could it be that your team has very little to shout about?

Thread is about Gibbs trade. I praise the Crows for their decision and offer the reason why. Not sure what your issue is?

 

[gbatman]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-16/former-carlton-star-williams-in-150000-tax-probe/1479562



Carlton supporters.

Doesn't disprove any of those arguments.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-16/former-carlton-star-williams-in-150000-tax-probe/1479562



Carlton supporters.

A 13 year old article? That doesn't prove that they breached the cap in 1995.

 

[baldandbroke]

Thread is about Gibbs trade. I praise the Crows for their decision and offer the reason why. Not sure what your issue is?

 

[Monkey King]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-16/former-carlton-star-williams-in-150000-tax-probe/1479562

Carlton supporters.

The AFL already ticked this one off years ago mate.

Meanwhile, during the 90's nearly every club was done for cheating the salary cap. Anyone associated with the league knows it was rife. Doesn't stop some from creating a narrative where their poor little rule abiding clubs were disadvantaged by a uniquely dastardly and deceitful Carlton. What a ****ing rotter.

 

[MarkT2]

The AFL already ticked this one off years ago mate.

Meanwhile, during the 90's nearly every club was done for cheating the salary cap. Anyone associated with the league knows it was rife. Doesn't stop some from creating a narrative where their poor little rule abiding clubs were disadvantaged by a uniquely dastardly and deceitful Carlton. What a ******* rotter.

The ATO didn't tick it off and it was given in EVIDENCE by Williams that it was a salay cap rort. It is the direct answer to the question asked. The AFl didn't tick it off at all they left it alone haveing acted on the prior breaches to their satisfaction and to prevent burying Carlton.

 

[JeffDunne]

Doesn't disprove any of those arguments.

You might want to read the findings of the judge in that case.

"A scheme to defraud the competition" is how he explained the agreement between Carlton & Williams.

A 13 year old article? That doesn't prove that they breached the cap in 1995.

What relevance is the age of the article?

The AFL already ticked this one off years ago mate.

Meanwhile, during the 90's nearly every club was done for cheating the salary cap. Anyone associated with the league knows it was rife. Doesn't stop some from creating a narrative where their poor little rule abiding clubs were disadvantaged by a uniquely dastardly and deceitful Carlton. What a ******* rotter.

The AFL ticked it off because they had already "punished" Carlton and they didn't want to open a Pandora's Box.

FWIW, the AFL ticking off on something doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm guessing by how quickly you went to the "everyone else was doing it" defence that even you realise that.

The findings of the judge in the ATO v Greg Williams case clearly show that Carlton and Williams cheated the cap in 1995.

Carlton fans might want to appeal that finding but they should note that their club didn't (remember too that Ian Collins was president of Carlton at the time of the court case and he was also the person central to the agreement between Willians and Carlton).

* waits for the grand-daddy of Carlton denial to appear in this thread *

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

You might want to read the findings of the judge in that case.

"A scheme to defraud the competition" is how he explained the agreement between Carlton & Williams.


What relevance is the age of the article?


The AFL ticked it off because they had already "punished" Carlton and they didn't want to open a Pandora's Box.

FWIW, the AFL ticking off on something doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm guessing by how quickly you went to the "everyone else was doing it" defence that even you realise that.

The findings of the judge in the ATO v Greg Williams case clearly show that Carlton and Williams cheated the cap in 1995.

Carlton fans might want to appeal that finding but they should note that their club didn't (remember too that Ian Collins was president of Carlton at the time of the court case and he was also the person central to the agreement between Willians and Carlton).

* waits for the grand-daddy of Carlton denial to appear in this thread *

In 1994 we were investigated and fined for a breach in 1993. In 2001 we were investigated and fined for breaches occurring in 1998/99 and in 2002 we were investigated and fined for breaches between 1998-2001.
There are no recorded breaches for the years 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997. The ATO is not the AFL.
The article was done in 2003, after we were investigated and fined for all our breaches. I doubt the AFL would have looked at all those years that they stung us for and forgot the ones in between. The AFL also isn't afraid to fine a club for breaching the cap in a premiership year (Essendon in 1993), so you can't argue the pandora's box, apart from it being pure speculation on what the AFL would and wouldn't want to do when history shows otherwise.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-16/former-carlton-star-williams-in-150000-tax-probe/1479562



Carlton supporters.

Glad to see your putting so much effort into exposing a club as cheats when there has been no valid evidence.

Continue your cherry-picking because it is doing you wonders.

I was specifically asking for proof on the supposed 'SA players being kept away from home' argument. Carlton haters will basically look for anything to take credit off the club's last premiership when reality has it set in stone.

If there were any proof to the cheating, I'm pretty sure the flag would be taken from them. The fact is it hasn't and it's counted.

But I insist, keep searching if it's to make you feel better about yourself. Probably takes the attention off your club's one flag and 27 spoons.

 

[JeffDunne]

In 1994 we were investigated and fined for a breach in 1993. In 2001 we were investigated and fined for breaches occurring in 1998/99 and in 2002 we were investigated and fined for breaches between 1998-2001.
There are no recorded breaches for the years 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997. The ATO is not the AFL.
The article was done in 2003, after we were investigated and fined for all our breaches. I doubt the AFL would have looked at all those years that they stung us for and forgot the ones in between. The AFL also isn't afraid to fine a club for breaching the cap in a premiership year (Essendon in 1993), so you can't argue the pandora's box, apart from it being pure speculation on what the AFL would and wouldn't want to do when history shows otherwise.

Glad to see your putting so much effort into exposing a club as cheats when there has been no valid evidence.

Continue your cherry-picking because it is doing you wonders.

I was specifically asking for proof on the supposed 'SA players being kept away from home' argument. Carlton haters will basically look for anything to take credit off the club's last premiership when reality has it set in stone.

If there were any proof to the cheating, I'm pretty sure the flag would be taken from them. The fact is it hasn't and it's counted.

But I insist, keep searching if it's to make you feel better about yourself. Probably takes the attention off your club's one flag and 27 spoons.

TBH, I can't be bothered further with this bullshit again & this aint the thread for it anyway.It's like arguing with the worst kind of conspiracy theorists.

There's plenty of threads on this topic on Bigfooty let alone numerous articles (now mostly archived) & the findings of a Victorian Supreme Court judge. Do your own research, and then if you still want to debate the earth is flat then start a thread on the appropriate forum.

If you need help, start with Amigo Constructions and the contract given to them by Carlton. Amigo whose directors included Justin Madden & Williams' manager, were found by the Supreme Court in Victoria of participating in a scheme with Ian Collins to defraud the AFL by hiding salary payments. The ATO took exception to these payments being declared as anything but salary and taxed Williams accordingly.

The court findings make it all perfectly clear (more so than any AFL investigation into Carlton).

Carlton supporters might want to argue the sky is yellow but the Victorian Supreme Court disagrees with you. Carlton cheated the cap in 1995. Fact. Deal with it.

 

[Monkey King]

The AFL ticked it off because they had already "punished" Carlton and they didn't want to open a Pandora's Box.

Yeah nah. The AFL ticked it off because they knew about it; it was declared under the moratorium, along with the indescretions of many other clubs taking advantage of the moratorium. Funny the sanctimonious bullshit that gets bandied around by supporters of clubs who were more than likely neck deep salary cap cheating.

 

[JeffDunne]

Yeah nah. The AFL ticked it off because they knew about it; it was declared under the moratorium, along with the indescretions of many other clubs taking advantage of the moratorium. Funny the sanctimonious bullshit that gets bandied around by supporters of clubs who were more than likely neck deep salary cap cheating.

If it was declared under the moratorium why then were the payments via Amigo (again, refer to the court case)?

Under oath Carlton claimed the payments were for construction work (shown to be not performed). Why would he do that if the payments were above board with the AFL?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-16/former-carlton-star-williams-in-150000-tax-probe/1479562



Carlton supporters.

Which the AFL knew about before the payments were actually made under the moratorium. They made a statement to this end.

Not only Carlton supporters heard it.

The AFL already knew about the deal with Greg Williams. It was handled when the AFL had the salary cap moratorium a few years back.

The only issue now is; Greg Williams and the ATO.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

If it was declared under the moratorium why then were the payments via Amigo (again, refer to the court case)?

Under oath Carlton claimed the payments were for construction work (shown to be not performed). Why would he do that if the payments were above board with the AFL?

Who knows how Williams wanted it structured and why.

The AFL said it was clear, no investigation was necessary and the only issue was Williams and the ATO.

It's a bit rough to expect supporters not privy to the deal to investigate it from a starting point of guilty.

 

[JeffDunne]

Who knows how Williams wanted it structured and why.

WTF?

The whole point of the court case was to determine the nature of the payments. It is fraud to pay salary under the guise of creditor invoices. No employer does that simply because an employee wants it structured that way. That's preposterous.

Carlton argued in court that the payments were for construction.

Why on earth would an Ian Collins led Carlton do that if the payments were already declared? That would be easy to prove to the ATO and there'd have been no need for a court case.

But it was nice to see you enter the thread right on cue (as predicted).

 

[MarkT2]

I'm not sure how a retrospective reporting moritorium makes the payments less of a 1995 salarty cap rort. The moritorium was about penalties. It didn't change the fact that Carlton paid more than the cap limit at the time and consequenty had a better list than they otherwise would have.

 

[Thrawn]

Ahh, there's the Jeff we all know and love - throwing as much mud as possible at Carlton in the hope it'll all stick.

The ATO didn't tick it off and it was given in EVIDENCE by Williams that it was a salay cap rort. It is the direct answer to the question asked. The AFl didn't tick it off at all they left it alone haveing acted on the prior breaches to their satisfaction and to prevent burying Carlton.

What happened to your previous username?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

WTF?

The whole point of the court case was to determine the nature of the payments. It is fraud to pay salary under the guise of creditor invoices. No employer does that simply because an employee wants it structured that way. That's preposterous.

Carlton argued in court that the payments were for construction.

Why on earth would an Ian Collins led Carlton do that if the payments were already declared? That would be easy to prove to the ATO and there'd have been no need for a court case.

But it was nice to see you enter the thread right on cue (as predicted).

As I said we don't know why it was done that way. We do know it was agreed to when he first came to Carlton, before the moratorium but the agreement was fulfilled in instalments after the moratorium. It is entirely plausible it was declared to the AFL at the time and the AFL didn't have the precedent or policy to know what to do with it.

Early days of a salary cap with a moratorium held because the AFL realised that nobody took it seriously so they needed to draw a line.

Was it AFL sanctioned cheating? Maybe. It was sanctioned however. The AFL said no case to answer.

Did the amount apply to 1992 or 1993 but was paid off over 3 years and should it count according to the time it was agreed or paid?

Remember the Bradley and Silvagni non payments were penalised for the time of agreement not payment.

 

[Thrawn]

The AFL said it was clear, no investigation was necessary and the only issue was Williams and the ATO.

Pretty strong statement there from the AFL given the amount of times Elliot thumbed his nose to them. If there was anything untoward there regarding salary cap payments, they would have eviscerated us.

 

[MarkT2]

What happened to your previous username?

Assuming that's a serious question - I got a new computer in 2009, forgot my password and didn't have the email address I used when I signen up originally in 2001 so added a 2 to my old username and signed up again.

Or do you think I am also someone else?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The ATO didn't tick it off and it was given in EVIDENCE by Williams that it was a salay cap rort. It is the direct answer to the question asked. The AFl didn't tick it off at all they left it alone haveing acted on the prior breaches to their satisfaction and to prevent burying Carlton.

The AFL came out the front of AFL house and said there was no case to answer. Carlton came out at the same press address and expanded while standing beside the AFL spokesperson advising it was declared during the moratorium.