Cripps Bontempelli Merrett Kelly - the next big 4?

[ManOfClay]

The continual furphy Bont benefits from the team...

Christ. Yes we have other players teams need to worry about but Bont is our best player and a top 5 player in the game. He had more than just a good finals series last year, he's had an excellent two seasons.

Merrett is great but a bit behind and Cripps is further back.

 

[LeverPuller]

Cripps contested ball and clearance numbers last year were better then Fyfe's in he's Brownlow year, that is off the charts stuff for a 3rd year player.
Last year Cripps absolutely ripped Melbourne's midfield to shreds, with Oliver Viney Vince Jones Petracca Brayshaw all playing IIRC
Also did it to them the year before, when Vince was one of the best taggers in the comp.
Hopefully he can do it again next week, but he hasn't had much of a preseason, so 3 in row could be a big ask.

Think it'll be Cripps v Oliver head to head. Oliver petered off last year mostly due to being a fatass but his weight and endurance have clearly improved.

Think Lewis might be the difference though. That and Melbourne's midfield is one of the deepest going around, in the conversation with GWS/Collingwood/WB right now. Should be fun to watch.

 

[Old navy]

Cripps didn't play well round 1 though.

This means his whole past is now null and void

This is BF, this is how things are done.

 

[Ambrosia]

According to this thread it depends. If you're say Libba or Cripps and you carry the midfield in a crap side while being statistically the best or second best contested player in the entire league it doesn't mean much.

Libba was younger than Merrett is this year when he lead the league in clearances and was top 5 in CPs and tackles. He's the same size as Merrett too. But now Libba spends time in the forward line kicking goals in a premiership team and Merrett would be our second best player.

I reckon I'll crack the code eventually.

The code may just be that you're wrong. Libba was 21 in the year you are referencing compared to Merrett being 20 in 2016

 

[TiAn_]

The code may just be that you're wrong. Libba was 21 in the year you are referencing compared to Merrett being 20 in 2016

I said Merrett "this year". It's right there in my post.

 

[Ambrosia]

I said Merrett "this year". It's right there in my post.

My mistake. I don't understand the point your trying to make then. What Libba did 3 seasons ago isn't going to make anyone take him ahead of Merrett now.

 

[PP34]

The continual furphy Bont benefits from the team...

Christ. Yes we have other players teams need to worry about but Bont is our best player and a top 5 player in the game. He had more than just a good finals series last year, he's had an excellent two seasons.

Merrett is great but a bit behind and Cripps is further back.

Nobody said otherwise, but I've seen plenty of people use Bont's finals series as a reason to put daylight between him and Cripps. It's rubbish.

 

[Ray Donovan]

The continual furphy Bont benefits from the team...

Christ. Yes we have other players teams need to worry about but Bont is our best player and a top 5 player in the game. He had more than just a good finals series last year, he's had an excellent two seasons.

Merrett is great but a bit behind and Cripps is further back.

Bontempelli statistically speaking he is one of the best we have seen for his age.

Top 5 player in the game he is not

Top 5 mid in the game you can make an argument

 

[Bald]

Bontempelli statistically speaking he is one of the best we have seen for his age.

Top 5 player in the game he is not

Top 5 mid in the game you can make an argument

Genuinely interested in who you'd have ahead of him? I personally have him top 10 in the league, but I have Fyfe, Dangerfield, Martin, Franklin, Rance and both of the Josh Kennedy's ahead of him.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Nobody said otherwise, but I've seen plenty of people use Bont's finals series as a reason to put daylight between him and Cripps. It's rubbish.

There is daylight between Bontempelli and Cripps. It's not a slight on Cripps, just the reality. Bontempelli is certainly within the best five midfielders in the competition. Martin, Fyfe and Dangerfield are the only midfielders that people would be unanimous if wanting to play for them across the next 21 games alone, without taking the next 10 years into consideration. Bontempelli was already elite in 2015, but probably underrated because it took a while to "realise" how efficient his performances were - AFL Player Ratings Points had him top 10 in the competition in 2015, and you had me making this thread in May of 2015 alerting people to the fact - I was onto it six rounds into the 2015 season, blowing my own trumpet for a second here. In many ways, and by many measures, Bontempelli played no better than he did in 2016 than he did in 2015, apart from proving consistency across a larger sample size - so his reputation built from the fact we had a two year sample size, not so much he was playing better in 2016 than 2015.

Cripps is a very, very good player no doubt, but until he starts using the ball better on the outside, and/or his clearance work actually has a greater impact on Carlton's clearance ability as a whole (Carlton are neither a dominant clearance differential, or a score from clearance differential team), he's a level below Merrett and Bontempelli. I'd say Merrett's 2016 season was 99.5% of Bontempelli's 2015 season, and similarly to Bontempelli he doesn't have to actually improve on his 2015 performances for his stock to rise - it's more about building reputation and proving his performances over a larger sample size. Until then, there's daylight between Bontempelli to Merrett, then daylight from Merrett to Cripps, although Merrett's catching up to Bontempelli very quickly as he proves his performances over a larget sample size.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

I really rate Cripps but the Bont and Merret have gone past him atm.

Cripps is fantastic at winning the ball out of the middle but Bomtempli and Merret can not only win the ball but set up plays with their kicking skills and kick goals. once Cripps can add those things to his game on top of his ball winning ability he'll be right up there.

 

[ManOfClay]

Bontempelli statistically speaking he is one of the best we have seen for his age.

Top 5 player in the game he is not

Top 5 mid in the game you can make an argument

Coaches votes and players top 50 suggest otherwise

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

There is daylight between Bontempelli and Cripps. It's not a slight on Cripps, just the reality. Bontempelli is certainly within the best five midfielders in the competition. Martin, Fyfe and Dangerfield are the only midfielders that people would be unanimous if wanting to play for them across the next 21 games alone, without taking the next 10 years into consideration. Bontempelli was already elite in 2015, but probably underrated because it took a while to "realise" how efficient his performances were - AFL Player Ratings Points had him top 10 in the competition in 2015, and you had me making this thread in May of 2015 alerting people to the fact - I was onto it six rounds into the 2015 season, blowing my own trumpet for a second here. In many ways, and by many measures, Bontempelli played no better than he did in 2016 than he did in 2015, apart from proving consistency across a larger sample size - so his reputation built from the fact we had a two year sample size, not so much he was playing better in 2016 than 2015.

Cripps is a very, very good player no doubt, but until he starts using the ball better on the outside, and/or his clearance work actually has a greater impact on Carlton's clearance ability as a whole (Carlton are neither a dominant clearance differential, or a score from clearance differential team), he's a level below Merrett and Bontempelli. I'd say Merrett's 2016 season was 99.5% of Bontempelli's 2015 season, and similarly to Bontempelli he doesn't have to actually improve on his 2015 performances for his stock to rise - it's more about building reputation and proving his performances over a larger sample size. Until then, there's daylight between Bontempelli to Merrett, then daylight from Merrett to Cripps, although Merrett's catching up to Bontempelli very quickly as he proves his performances over a larget sample size.

Your right Merret is catching up to the Bont. Merret watched the GF last year and seeing Bomtempli receive his medal is driving him to take his game to the next level.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Coaches votes and players top 50 suggest otherwise

Coaches votes don't count blokes not playing. And players top 50 is just off last season.

This is all personal opinion I love the bont he is the best young player I have ever seen.

Fyfe
Dangerfield
Franklin
Pendlebury

Ablett
Selwood
R.Gray
D.Martin
M.Bontempelli
Josh Kennedy ( W.C)
Josh Kennedy (Syd)
N.Natanui
M.Gawn

T.Goldstein

I mean I don't judge the leagues best players on what they did just last season I judge it on what they have actually done throughout their career. The top 4 I wouldn't change consistent being doing it for years then you split the rest with bontempelli ablett couple of brownlow's selwood and Robbie gray pretty consistent I'm not saying he won't overtake these guys but his effort is remarkable because of his age his output is excellent just if he wants to overtake these guys clearly needs to keep doing it.

Is he better than those guys today its possible but I'm not quite satisfied just yet

 

[calyam]

AFL Player Rankings after round one:

Bontempelli (WB) 4th
Merrett (Ess) 29th
Cripps (Car) 49th
Kelly (GWS) 89th

Some other interesting ones from that same draft class:

Crouch (Ade) 122nd
Dunstan (StK) 182nd
Kolodjashnij (GCS) 207th
Taylor (Bri) 211th
Billings (StK) 290th
McDonald (NM) 338th
Boyd (WB) 367nd

There are four players from the draft class ranked in the top 100 and a fifth (Crouch) should join them soon. They are the standouts from the draft class so far. It's also worth reminding people that the AFL player rankings only take account of the past 40 games played by a player during the past two seasons. Players such as Billings and Boyd, who have played 27 and 29 games, respectively, during that period are better than their ranking suggests.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Genuinely interested in who you'd have ahead of him? I personally have him top 10 in the league, but I have Fyfe, Dangerfield, Martin, Franklin, Rance and both of the Josh Kennedy's ahead of him.

Personally also have Pendlebury and Sam Mitchell ebbing and flowing with Bont. That's my top 10 players, in any given month any one could be number 1, but usually (it's hard to be definite about these things) Bont would be around 6th for me. Ahead of Fyfe currently until Fyfe shows he can be back to his best.

Then have Sloane, Selwood, Gawn, N.Riewoldt, Betts (somedays I have him top 10) sit just behind that group.

 

[eth-dog]

Coaches votes don't count blokes not playing. And players top 50 is just off last season.

This is all personal opinion I love the bont he is the best young player I have ever seen.

Fyfe
Dangerfield
Franklin
Pendlebury

Ablett
Selwood
R.Gray
D.Martin
M.Bontempelli
Josh Kennedy ( W.C)
Josh Kennedy (Syd)
N.Natanui
M.Gawn

T.Goldstein

I mean I don't judge the leagues best players on what they did just last season I judge it on what they have actually done throughout their career. The top 4 I wouldn't change consistent being doing it for years then you split the rest with bontempelli ablett couple of brownlow's selwood and Robbie gray pretty consistent I'm not saying he won't overtake these guys but his effort is remarkable because of his age his output is excellent just if he wants to overtake these guys clearly needs to keep doing it.

Is he better than those guys today its possible but I'm not quite satisfied just yet

I accept most of that. However Gawn really has had only the one "gun" season, yet you say you rate it on the whole career?

 

[Ray Donovan]

I accept most of that. However Gawn really has had only the one "gun" season, yet you say you rate it on the whole career?

I only threw Gawn in right down the bottom for arguments sake as he would be in top 2 rucks I imagine. His back end to 2015 last 13 games very dominant. Then obviously all last year he was no.1 ruckman. Neither I have in my top 5 but I'm sure some would

So if you can chuck the bont into top 5 convo after one stellar season Gawn can be in as well conversation but not in my top 5 . For the same reasons

And just for arguments sake well Gawn is no.1 in his position I would say.

I think the bont played about 20 that year 2015 compared to gawns 13 so not a lot of difference really.

You can rank the bottom guys how ever you like really its just the scenario bont has played 59 games. Probably the best 59 any kid has played but does it elevate him above the Ablett's , Selwood, J.Kennedy type doing it for years at a high level the grading for his potential is enormous. Similar to chad wingard as a small forward his numbers are off the chart for a younger player.

 

[eth-dog]

I only threw Gawn in right down the bottom for arguments sake as he would be in top 2 rucks I imagine. His back end to 2015 last 13 games very dominant. Then obviously all last year he was no.1 ruckman. Neither I have in my top 5 but I'm sure some would

So if you can chuck the bont into top 5 convo after one stellar season Gawn can be in as well.

And just for arguments sake well Gawn is no.1 in his position I would say.

I think the bont played about 20 that year 2015 compared to gawns 13 so not a lot of difference really.

You can rank the bottom guys how ever you like really its just the scenario bont has played 59 games. Probably the best 59 any kid has played but does it elevate him above the Ablett's , Selwood, J.Kennedy type doing it for years at a high level the grading for his potential is enormous. Similar to chad wingard as a small forward his numbers are off the chart for a younger player.

Okay, that makes sense. Cheers

 

[Big Wilbur]

The beauty of both Bont and Merret is that they rarely waste a possession. Merret's ball use against Hawthorn was sublime.......he's a major riser with a bullet.

Love Cripps but he just isn't as damaging.

 

[Ray Donovan]

Personally also have Pendlebury and Sam Mitchell ebbing and flowing with Bont. That's my top 10 players, in any given month any one could be number 1, but usually (it's hard to be definite about these things) Bont would be around 6th for me. Ahead of Fyfe currently until Fyfe shows he can be back to his best.

Then have Sloane, Selwood, Gawn, N.Riewoldt, Betts (somedays I have him top 10) sit just behind that group.

Yeah so hard to grade players from different positions against each other as well. I'm under the impression Josh Kennedy (w.c) is more important to the coast than a bontempelli to the dogs. It depends what you value but just as out and out mids I see 3 straight away I couldn't put him in front of and then I think well is he better than every other player competing for 4-5th spot I'm not satisfied I can call it after 1 stellar season.

Your right ebbs and flows and no one is right or wrong in these one thing is for sure he will end up in my top 5 in the near future

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

The continual furphy Bont benefits from the team...

Christ. Yes we have other players teams need to worry about but Bont is our best player and a top 5 player in the game. He had more than just a good finals series last year, he's had an excellent two seasons.

Merrett is great but a bit behind and Cripps is further back.

bont doesn't benefit from the team, but his profile in the afl sure does.

watch the the greatest running half back the alf has ever seen zack tuohy emerge from nowhere this year

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

For the record Bont isn't head and shoulders above Merrett or Cripps either. Sure he made a big impact in the finals last year, but that's more to do with the team. Put Cripps or Merrett in that Dogs side and I'm sure they're having a big impact too. Cripps and Merrett both equally had great years last year and were only just behind Bont in the Brownlow count.
.

I'm sure Cripps and Merrett would have a huge impact at the Dogs. However put one of them in the side instead of Bontompelli and I'm not convinced the Dogs would be Premiers

When people say the team helps Bont out, I think they discount the effect he had on a good team. Their might be benefits to having better players around you, but its not exactly easy to be a 20 year old who is expected to lead your team in 4 consecutive finals. How many 20 year olds have had the expectations Bont had in 4 finals? How many Premiership teams have had a 20 year old as their best player?

 

[PP34]

There is daylight between Bontempelli and Cripps. It's not a slight on Cripps, just the reality. Bontempelli is certainly within the best five midfielders in the competition. Martin, Fyfe and Dangerfield are the only midfielders that people would be unanimous if wanting to play for them across the next 21 games alone, without taking the next 10 years into consideration. Bontempelli was already elite in 2015, but probably underrated because it took a while to "realise" how efficient his performances were - AFL Player Ratings Points had him top 10 in the competition in 2015, and you had me making this thread in May of 2015 alerting people to the fact - I was onto it six rounds into the 2015 season, blowing my own trumpet for a second here. In many ways, and by many measures, Bontempelli played no better than he did in 2016 than he did in 2015, apart from proving consistency across a larger sample size - so his reputation built from the fact we had a two year sample size, not so much he was playing better in 2016 than 2015.

Cripps is a very, very good player no doubt, but until he starts using the ball better on the outside, and/or his clearance work actually has a greater impact on Carlton's clearance ability as a whole (Carlton are neither a dominant clearance differential, or a score from clearance differential team), he's a level below Merrett and Bontempelli. I'd say Merrett's 2016 season was 99.5% of Bontempelli's 2015 season, and similarly to Bontempelli he doesn't have to actually improve on his 2015 performances for his stock to rise - it's more about building reputation and proving his performances over a larger sample size. Until then, there's daylight between Bontempelli to Merrett, then daylight from Merrett to Cripps, although Merrett's catching up to Bontempelli very quickly as he proves his performances over a larget sample size.

Once again nobody can actually tell me why there is daylight. Just a whole lot of nothing about player ratings.

Bont is a silky midfielder who damages teams even if he doesn't rack up 30.

Cripps is an inside beast who does a lot of tough work around the ground and consistently racks up big numbers. They're two totally different players. Just because Bont is more efficient with his disposal that doesn't mean there's daylight between the two.

They both ranked extremely close in the Brownlow last year. Obviously it's not the be all and end all but it's a pretty good indication of where the two are at. Both are absolute young stars.

Absolutely hilarious how you talk down Cripps because Carlton's clearance numbers aren't great. Well no shit when the rest of your side is as ordinary as they come. Have you seen our forward line too? He's winning a ton of ball and it makes no difference a lot of the time because we've got no forwards.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Once again nobody can actually tell me why there is daylight. Just a whole lot of nothing about player ratings.

Bont is a silky midfielder who damages teams even if he doesn't rack up 30.

Cripps is an inside beast who does a lot of tough work around the ground and consistently racks up big numbers. They're two totally different players. Just because Bont is more efficient with his disposal that doesn't mean there's daylight between the two.

They both ranked extremely close in the Brownlow last year. Obviously it's not the be all and end all but it's a pretty good indication of where the two are at. Both are absolute young stars.

Absolutely hilarious how you talk down Cripps because Carlton's clearance numbers aren't great. Well no shit when the rest of your side is as ordinary as they come. Have you seen our forward line too? He's winning a ton of ball and it makes no difference a lot of the time because we've got no forwards.

You've answered your own question with what's bolded. If his ball winning makes no difference, than of what value to Carlton is that ball winning? Why isn't he playing in such a way that makes his poor forwards better? There's way to do this. He himself could be a better ball user and not commit 4 clangers a game despite hardly kicking it, he himself could be better at thrusting the ball with his low metres gained stats. He himself could make the forward line better, by having the ability to be a better resting forward, mixing it up to give the opposition defence something to think about and attract attention as a forward making it easier for his teammates.

Think of it this way - if you put Bontempelli instead of Cripps in Carlton's team. Yes, he would win less clearances and probably an even higher percentage of those clearances would go to waste. But Bontempelli is a much better kick, has much more attacking instincts to get the ball moving forward, will attract attention as a ball mover because he's a better ball mover (ie teams zone off Cripps' kick and zone onto the players he tries to handball to, therefore putting pressure on teammates), and has the ability to be a psuedo-key-forward whilst resting up there, which Cripps cannot do (majority of Bontempelli's 20+ goals last year were as a genuine resting forward, not from midfield, both goals he kicked against Collingwood Friday were when he was resting forward). Bontempelli averaged 4 and a half less clearances per game than Cripps, but spent about 1/3 less time in midfield - adjust for that and Cripps only averages 2.5 more clearances than Bontempelli. Is 2.5 clearances worth more than everything else that Bont offers that Cripps doesn't?