Mandatory detention of refugees (Stop the boats. 5k a head. Part 2)

[JackOutback]

What basic facts? You dont present any.



You I assume are very well aware that illegal immigrants arriving by boat granted refugee status in Australia take an allocation out of the yearly intake and thus bump genuine refugees from UN camps.

So, yes there clearly is a queue in reality.

That some of the refugees are indeed genuine. You seem to be arguing that it's better to indefinitely imprison people who could be killed if they were returned home just to keep a few economic refugees out whereas I would argue it would be better to have a process for identifying economic refugees and ensuring those with a genuine fear for their life are given a safe place to stay.

As for your second point, that is only true because of the shitbaggery of Howard; it did not use to be the case.

 

[NSWCROW]

ABC's on it


Surely he's finished politically if he's found to have lied here.

 

[Sinjin Smith]

That some of the refugees are indeed genuine. You seem to be arguing that it's better to indefinitely imprison people who could be killed if they were returned home just to keep a few economic refugees out whereas I would argue it would be better to have a process for identifying economic refugees and ensuring those with a genuine fear for their life are given a safe place to stay.

As for your second point, that is only true because of the shitbaggery of Howard; it did not use to be the case.

Your first sentence highlights why we have offshore processing.

 

[JackOutback]

Your first sentence highlights why we have offshore processing.

Why? Stats show that in any given year, the number of asylum seekers that arrived by boat who turned out to be genuine refugees was between 80 and 100 per cent. Are we so mean-spirited a country that we will punish thousands of genuine refugees to prevent a few slipping through?

 

[kwikfix]

 

[midorigreenwood]

Why? Stats show that in any given year, the number of asylum seekers that arrived by boat who turned out to be genuine refugees was between 80 and 100 per cent. Are we so mean-spirited a country that we will punish thousands of genuine refugees to prevent a few slipping through?

https://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/opinion/9646-two-tiered-justice-the-in-built-bias-in-australia

In the onshore track, the asylum seeker's identity, claims and history can and will be cross-checked against the supporting documents that they themselves have provided. This will usually mean a passport, but may also include travel, educational, employment and residential histories and documents. For instance, the applicant's claims will be checked against his or her known movements as disclosed by the passport, or by residential or educational records produced in support of a visitor or student visa, and the applicant will be invited to explain any discrepancies. If an applicant claims to have been present at a momentous event in the history of their country, then the documentary evidence must support that presence. If an applicant claims to have been on the run from the authorities for some period of time, then they would need to explain any employment or educational records which may cast doubt on this.

In the offshore track, an asylum seeker who does not produce any documents has a near blank canvas on which to sketch their identity, claims and history.

In that situation, the decision-maker can only check the claims for internal consistency, and compare them to general information known about the country in question. That is, the decision-maker can check that the applicant can give consistent answers to questions about his or her claim, and that the claims are consistent with information known generally about the country of origin. What the decision-maker doesn't have is any other known reference points - no travel, educational, residential or family history, against which the applicant's identity, claims and evidence can be measured.

This, of course, involves a much less rigorous examination of the applicant's claims and history than is available in onshore assessment.

Provided the identity and claims are plausible, i.e. they fit in with information known about the country of origin and pass a common sense test, they are likely to be accepted, whether or not they are true.

If the application discloses a prima facie case for protection and the applicant makes a reasonably good fist of giving the evidence, and the claims are not in great conflict with reliable information about the country in question, then the decision-maker will give the applicant the benefit of the doubt, as is rightly encouraged by the law and good practice, and the applicant is very likely to succeed.

The result: a 98 per cent success rate for boat arrivals.

 

[Northalives]

Why? Stats show that in any given year, the number of asylum seekers that arrived by boat who turned out to be genuine refugees was between 80 and 100 per cent. Are we so mean-spirited a country that we will punish thousands of genuine refugees to prevent a few slipping through?

shoosh Jack, don't mention the illegal immigrants who fly in and then disappear in Australia's vast land. It doesn't matter that the estimated 65,000 or so people who are living illegally in Australia are "jumping the queue", does it? So long as they are not the 5,700 people (at the peak in 2013) or the 1,400 or so now in the concentration camps. We can't have them seeking asylum can we? No, after all, we need someone to demonise, someone to "fear". We needed to "stop the boats"; it's good for our image!

To let these "illegal asylum seekers" (hahahahah.... illegal asylum seekers, hahahaha..), anyway, to let these "illegal asylum seekers" into our communities will mean that they will take "our" jobs but shoosh, don't mention the 65,000 who have probably already taken "our" jobs anyway but then again, maybe they are now successful small business operators, you know, they run successful drug labs, launder money for organised crime, hit men (oops, hit persons), run prostitution rackets, small time crooks, maybe even recruit terrorist types.

These illegals ain't been vetted, "extreme" vetting or otherwise but that's OK, they didn't come into the country or attempt to come into the country by boat, the used aeroplanes and we all know that it's those shifty "boat people" that are the real danger to "our way of life", oi oi oi !!

 

[medusala]

You seem to be arguing that it's better to indefinitely imprison people who could be killed if they were returned home just to keep a few economic refugees out whereas I would argue it would be better to have a process for identifying economic refugees and ensuring those with a genuine fear for their life are given a safe place to stay.

Just a few? FFS. You are encouraging them by the tens of thousands.

We KNOW we can take ONLY genuine refugees WITHOUT taking economic migrants nor by encouraging them.

By taking them from UN camps

Its NOT rocket science.

 

[medusala]

Why? Stats show that in any given year, the number of asylum seekers that arrived by boat who turned out to be genuine refugees was between 80 and 100 per cent

Thats BS. It was way lower than that until Rudd changed things. You also manage to omit how many fail in the first instance on win an appeal.

As per Midori G above. Its laughable to make the claim they are all genuine refugees. Yet you do, why?? The system is loaded in their favour. Its pathetic. As are the efforts by the lawyers involved to blatantly rort the system.

"This, of course, involves a much less rigorous examination of the applicant's claims and history than is available in onshore assessment.

Provided the identity and claims are plausible, i.e. they fit in with information known about the country of origin and pass a common sense test, they are likely to be accepted, whether or not they are true.

If the application discloses a prima facie case for protection and the applicant makes a reasonably good fist of giving the evidence, and the claims are not in great conflict with reliable information about the country in question, then the decision-maker will give the applicant the benefit of the doubt, as is rightly encouraged by the law and good practice, and the applicant is very likely to succeed"

.Are we so mean-spirited a country that we will punish thousands of genuine refugees to prevent a few slipping through?

More utter nonsense to the point of dishonesty.

 

[JackOutback]

Just a few? FFS. You are encouraging them by the tens of thousands.

We KNOW we can take ONLY genuine refugees WITHOUT taking economic migrants nor by encouraging them.

By taking them from UN camps

Its NOT rocket science.

There has never been a year when tens of thousands of refugees arrived by boat. Though as northalives pointed, there's tens of thousands that arrived by air (though they are mostly white, so that's cool). Your second point is nonsense and not the fact you think it is.

 

[Northalives]

Just a few? FFS. You are encouraging them by the tens of thousands.

We KNOW we can take ONLY genuine refugees WITHOUT taking economic migrants nor by encouraging them.

By taking them from UN camps

Its NOT rocket science.

Since 2001-02, there were 42,745 asylum seekers arrived by boat and 72,010 arrived by air. Of these just on 50% of those arriving by air were seen to be genuine refugees whereas over 90% of those who arrived by boat were deemed to be genuine refugees.

It is interesting to note that if we take out the number of refugees who came to Australia by boat and air in 2012-13 because of the mass exodus of people from Syria due to that country's descent into all out war and the numbers of those seeking refuge exploding, then we have 63,530 arrivals by air and 24,380 by boat, that is, since 2001-02 there were a total of 114,755 asylum seekers arriving in Australia with 62.75% arriving by air with 50% of these deemed to be genuine and 37.25% arriving by boat of which over 90% were found to be genuine.

If we were to disregard the 2012-13 refugee arrivals because of the massive movement of refugees world wide due to the blood thirsty war in Syria and surrounds, then we find that of the 87,910 people arriving in Australia seeking asylum, 72.27% arrived by AIR and 27.73% arrived by BOAT.

In 2001 when Honest John Howard, seeking to cash in on the atrocities of September the 11th, lied through his teeth about "children overboard", there were 9,248 people who sought refuge in Australia and of these, 7,026 (75.98%) arrived by AIR and 2,222 (24.02%) arrived by BOAT.

What the above serves to illustrate is the deliberate and disgraceful way that the Liberal National Party, with the aid of a compliant media, has mislead and misinformed the citizens of this country as to the true nature of those seeking asylum. For xenophobes and strait out racists like Abbott, Bolt, Bernardi, Abetz, Hanson etc., it is vital that the demonisation of these hapless people continues unabated because it is what makes them "relevant" but the consequences in regards to the peace and harmony within our society, within our communities, is disastrous.

If you would like to read what the Parliamentary Social Policy Section has to say about refugees, look here:

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...liamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1415/AsylumFacts

and pay particular attention to this part: "The reason this ... point is important is that it means that arguably Australia is worrying about the wrong asylum seekers. Whereas the majority of those arriving by boat are refugees, the majority of those arriving by air are not."

You are right, "Its NOT rocket science". It's just that the people you cheer on use deceit and straight out racism to maintain their political status and power base. These are the scum of humanity that you follow so blindly.

 

[Lebbo73]

Since 2001-02, there were 42,745 asylum seekers arrived by boat and 72,010 arrived by air. Of these just on 50% of those arriving by air were seen to be genuine refugees whereas over 90% of those who arrived by boat were deemed to be genuine refugees.

It is interesting to note that if we take out the number of refugees who came to Australia by boat and air in 2012-13 because of the mass exodus of people from Syria due to that country's descent into all out war and the numbers of those seeking refuge exploding, then we have 63,530 arrivals by air and 24,380 by boat, that is, since 2001-02 there were a total of 114,755 asylum seekers arriving in Australia with 62.75% arriving by air with 50% of these deemed to be genuine and 37.25% arriving by boat of which over 90% were found to be genuine.

If we were to disregard the 2012-13 refugee arrivals because of the massive movement of refugees world wide due to the blood thirsty war in Syria and surrounds, then we find that of the 87,910 people arriving in Australia seeking asylum, 72.27% arrived by AIR and 27.73% arrived by BOAT.

In 2001 when Honest John Howard, seeking to cash in on the atrocities of September the 11th, lied through his teeth about "children overboard", there were 9,248 people who sought refuge in Australia and of these, 7,026 (75.98%) arrived by AIR and 2,222 (24.02%) arrived by BOAT.

What the above serves to illustrate is the deliberate and disgraceful way that the Liberal National Party, with the aid of a compliant media, has mislead and misinformed the citizens of this country as to the true nature of those seeking asylum. For xenophobes and strait out racists like Abbott, Bolt, Bernardi, Abetz, Hanson etc., it is vital that the demonisation of these hapless people continues unabated because it is what makes them "relevant" but the consequences in regards to the peace and harmony within our society, within our communities, is disastrous.

If you would like to read what the Parliamentary Social Policy Section has to say about refugees, look here:

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...liamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1415/AsylumFacts

and pay particular attention to this part: "The reason this ... point is important is that it means that arguably Australia is worrying about the wrong asylum seekers. Whereas the majority of those arriving by boat are refugees, the majority of those arriving by air are not."

You are right, "Its NOT rocket science". It's just that the people you cheer on use deceit and straight out racism to maintain their political status and power base. These are the scum of humanity that you follow so blindly.

 

[JackOutback]

View attachment 368529

I'll take his 'biased' facts over your alternative ones.

 

[Lebbo73]

I'll take his 'biased' facts over your alternative ones.

I must of replied to the wrong post. It was meant for you.

 

[JackOutback]

I must of replied to the wrong post. It was meant for you.

This pleases me; means I'm on the right track

 

[Northalives]

View attachment 368529

Lebbo mate, facts are biased but the Murdoch press and Tony Abbott have God on their side so we must put our brains to one side and obediently adhere to what Tones and Uncle Rupert say would should believe. Is that what you're saying?

 

[midorigreenwood]

Just a few? FFS. You are encouraging them by the tens of thousands.

We KNOW we can take ONLY genuine refugees WITHOUT taking economic migrants nor by encouraging them.

By taking them from UN camps

Its NOT rocket science.

It should be obvious but unfortunately some are so blinded by good intentions that they'll even cooperate with people smugglers

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...dren-mediterranean-sea-migrants-a7699571.html

An Italian prosecutor has said that he has evidence that charities helping refugees and migrants cross the Mediterranean Sea to Europe safely are “colluding” with people smugglers.

Speaking to Italy’s La Stampa, Sicily-based Carmelo Zuccaro told the paper: “We have evidence that there are direct contacts between certain NGOs and people traffickers in Libya.”

Charities were making telephone calls to Libya, helping to guide smugglers’ ships in Libyan as well as international waters and advising them to turn off transponders to avoid detection, he added.

Meanwhile in the real world....

Australia's policies are quietly being adopted by Europe

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/eu-fund-camps-africa-cut-immigration-170126145148238.html

European Union interior ministers have pushed ahead with plans to finance camps in Africa, where the United Nations refugee agency and aid groups would process people to prevent them from trying to cross the Mediterranean to Europe.

Thomas de Maiziere, German interior minister, said on Thursday that the idea was to send the people to a safe place without bringing them into Europe.

"The people taken up by the smugglers need to be saved and brought to a safe place, but then from this safe place outside Europe we would bring into Europe only those who require protection," he said in the Maltese capital, Valletta, where the EU ministers were debating the possible ways to end the crisis.

The sea crossing from Libya to Italy, operated by people smugglers, is the main route for those seeking better lives in Europe, but the EU wants to shut it down and admit only those they consider to be "genuine refugees".

 

[Maggie5]

I wonder how many of the ones we promised to take during Abbott's reign have been resettled. Was only a few years ago.

Canada managed to settle 25,000 within 6 months.

Can't find any figures on overstayers any more, previous Labor government was very open about these figures. Perhaps after spending all the money on detention centres there isn't any money or motivation to disclose these figures.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Asylum seekers death at sea 2017

Europe - 1300

Australia - 0

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-250-dead-or-missing-shipwrecks-crowded-boats

The final toll of dead and missing from two refugee shipwrecks off Libya at the weekend has risen to 245, the United Nations high commission for refugees (UNHCR) has said.

Tuesday’s revised estimate is partly based on horrific accounts from hospitalised survivors, and raises the death toll in the two incidents by about 50 people.

The revised tallies suggested that 82 went missing after a shipwreck on Friday night and a further 163 are feared dead in an incident off the Libyan coast on Sunday. The International Medical Corps said a woman and six men were rescued by the Libyan coast guards in the second incident. The new figures were given by the UNHCR at a briefing in Geneva.

 

[Maggie5]

Those figures mean little, how many are making the trip to Europe?

How would we know what the figures for Australia are? Because Dutton says so?

 

[Rob R]

Why? Stats show that in any given year, the number of asylum seekers that arrived by boat who turned out to be genuine refugees was between 80 and 100 per cent. Are we so mean-spirited a country that we will punish thousands of genuine refugees to prevent a few slipping through?

Only because the UN's rules are so biast in favour of the refugees, anyone can get in especially with the welfare seeker lobby feeding them stories to repeat. Australia should ban all so-called refugees from entering Australia until the UN agrees to rewrite the convention and start applying rigour eg. you must be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt: your identity; that you are in fear of your life on a permanent basis; that you in now way contributed to it; must apply in the first country you enter; that you have committed no crimes; and have not paid or associated with criminals. The rule also must change to ensure that the re-enfoulement provisions are not applicable if the welfare seeker commits any offence.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Manus Island will close by June 30, detainees told.

On Monday a man, purported to be a Papua New Guinean immigration official, told detainees to “consider your options” as migration and police officers had already commenced the shutdown process.

“Service will end and the demolition of remaining buildings will soon begin. Foxtrot compound will be the first to close, starting on 28 May,” the man said in a recording obtained by Guardian Australia. He said the last compound would close by 30 June. “You need to consider your options. No one will go to Australia.”

I would be surprised if the US swap deal happened quickly enough to be an option for them, but Trump did mention to Turnbull that the swap deal issue had 'been worked out'.

 

[midorigreenwood]

Its for show

The East Lorengau Refugee Transit Centre will be the new "detention centre" emulating the current stalemate in Nauru where they opened the gates in 2015 and deemed it no longer to be "detention"

Those who don't take the chunk of cash to go home or aren't chosen by the US are basically stuck there.

 

[medusala]

Meanwhile in the real world....

Australia's policies are quietly being adopted by Europe

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/eu-fund-camps-africa-cut-immigration-170126145148238.html

Fake News

Chief tells me Australia is an international pariah for its attitude towards illegal immigrants.

Since 2001-02, there were 42,745 asylum seekers arrived by boat and 72,010 arrived by air. Of these just on 50% of those arriving by air were seen to be genuine refugees whereas over 90% of those who arrived by boat were deemed to be genuine refugees.

FFS. Those arriving by air HAVE to travel with documents.

Why do you think illegal immigrants arriving by boat are so determined to throw away all their documentation???

Seriously, how gullible do you have to be?

 

[JackOutback]

Fake News

Chief tells me Australia is an international pariah for its attitude towards illegal immigrants.



FFS. Those arriving by air HAVE to travel with documents.

Why do you think illegal immigrants arriving by boat are so determined to throw away all their documentation???

Seriously, how gullible do you have to be?

How deliberately obtuse do you have to be to presume every one of them is burning their documents instead of, say, not actually having them. Do you seriously think people just pop down to the local DMV in Damascus whenever they need an updated licence?