Society/Culture Fat, happy and stupid: Is Australia getting dumber?

[Garlic muncher]

empathetic for people in the same situation as them

that's the problem

no empathy for people with different circumstances, because they've never stepped outside their insular lives*

that's why there is an entire spectrum of national politics playing up to dead s**t morons who are scared of brown people rocking up to this country via boat


*7 nights in Kuta doesn't count

wow, explain to me how your life is not insular, but mine is because i have a family, explain to me all this 'awareness' you claim you have from not having a family or children

As for your last sentence, i would be interested to know how is it you discount 1,400 years of history of Jihad and assume what happened then will not repeat ?.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

calling a rank show like that s**t doesn't make you a snob

It shows that the stigma is in the wrong place.

We've become so decadent and permissive in our embrace of low culture that it's now worse to look down on this rubbish than to like it.

This is intellectual confusion. No good can come of it.

 

[radiojake]

wow, explain to me how your life is not insular, but mine is because i have a family, explain to me all this 'awareness' you claim you have from not having a family or children

As for your last sentence, i would be interested to know how is it you discount 1,400 years of history of Jihad and assume what happened then will not repeat ?.

You answered your first question with your last sentence

congrats on being a breeder - do you think you deserve a medal?

 

[Kurve]

calling a rank show like that s**t doesn't make you a snob

It wasn't a TV show in isolation that led me to ask the question sorry, I should have quoted more.

 

[Garlic muncher]

You answered your first question with your last sentence

congrats on being a breeder - do you think you deserve a medal?

What is this 'awareness ' you have, what are you more aware of than me ?

How can someone who has no family, no responsibilities except to themselves, be more aware and selfless and show more empathy ?.

It defies logic.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

It wasn't a TV show in isolation that led me to ask the question sorry, I should have quoted more.

And I don't object to the label. I object to the assumption behind it: that snobbery is the taboo, as opposed to the stupidity. We've got that the wrong way around.

 

[Kurve]

And I don't object to the label. I object to the assumption behind it: that snobbery is the taboo, as opposed to the stupidity. We've got that the wrong way around.

I object to your assumption, made on a couple of ridiculous commercial TV shows that are going broke incidentally. You know why Australia can't and won't be like SK or Japan I suspect, it's a subject widely enough discussed in private groups among Australia's intelligentsia with the general concern of the possible lowering of our collective IQ, it hasn't happened yet.

I think you've lost touch with Australia.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

As for your last sentence, i would be interested to know how is it you discount 1,400 years of history of Jihad and assume what happened then will not repeat ?.

Can we not turn this into a thread about Islam, please?

I object to your assumption, made on a couple of ridiculous commercial TV shows that are going broke incidentally. You know why Australia can't and won't be like SK or Japan I suspect, it's a subject widely enough discussed in private groups among Australia's intelligentsia with the general concern of the possible lowering of our collective IQ, it hasn't happened yet.

I think you've lost touch with Australia.

I'm not sure that's true. Even in my circles, where everybody tends to be university educated, I know of more people that are happy to tune into the latest episode of The Bachelor than read a book about the world or follow global politics.

CM86 and I have discussed it in the past that the only way we can discuss many of these topics is to come to this forum.

That we are forced to come to an anonymous online forum to discuss topics that do hold sway in our day-to-day lives is quite damning.

A lot of people simply don't care about the world around us unless it's short clips that they can consume on Facebook, and they will typically just agree with whatever the current hive-mind opinion is.

Hell, even if you take a look at what is deemed important around election time. News networks seemingly spend more time covering how MPs fare at sausage sizzles than they do with substantive policy discussion.

 

[Kurve]

\

Can we not turn this into a thread about Islam, please?

I'm not sure that's true. Even in my circles, where everybody tends to be university educated, I know of more people that are happy to tune into the latest episode of The Bachelor than read a book about the world or follow global politics.

CM86 and I have discussed it in the past that the only way we can discuss many of these topics is to come to this forum.

That we are forced to come to an anonymous online forum to discuss topics that do hold sway in our day-to-day lives is quite damning.

A lot of people simply don't care about the world around us unless it's short clips that they can consume on Facebook, and they will typically just agree with whatever the current hive-mind opinion is.

Hell, even if you take a look at what is deemed important around election time. News networks seemingly spend more time covering how MPs fare at sausage sizzles than they do with substantive policy discussion.

Hmmm I haven't found that in my own circle which is very engaged but I've been surprised at the quality of some of the discussions on here so I appreciate what you mean. BigFooty. Who knew?

 

[Garlic muncher]

Can we not turn this into a thread about Islam, please?

.

I will try, but in my defence i was goaded a bit

Can we not turn this into a thread about Islam, please?

I'm not sure that's true. Even in my circles, where everybody tends to be university educated, I know of more people that are happy to tune into the latest episode of The Bachelor than read a book about the world or follow global politics.

CM86 and I have discussed it in the past that the only way we can discuss many of these topics is to come to this forum.

That we are forced to come to an anonymous online forum to discuss topics that do hold sway in our day-to-day lives is quite damning.

A lot of people simply don't care about the world around us unless it's short clips that they can consume on Facebook, and they will typically just agree with whatever the current hive-mind opinion is.

Hell, even if you take a look at what is deemed important around election time. News networks seemingly spend more time covering how MPs fare at sausage sizzles than they do with substantive policy discussion.

The OP has a point, the most exciting part of voting for many people was rating sausage sizzles at primary schools, we just dont realise how lucky we are here.

Some people say that is great, others call it damming and an indictment on us.

We will only really realise how lucky we are when we become unlucky.

We cant win.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I object to your assumption, made on a couple of ridiculous commercial TV shows that are going broke incidentally.

What assumption do you object to?

You know why Australia can't and won't be like SK or Japan I suspect, it's a subject widely enough discussed in private groups among Australia's intelligentsia with the general concern of the possible lowering of our collective IQ, it hasn't happened yet.

Sorry, what?

I think you've lost touch with Australia.

That may well be true. But I don't interpret this as a criticism.

I remember when I was at university, one of my friends was dating a girl. And it emerged that she insisted on watching Home and Away every day. If she was busy, she had to tape it. She simply refused to miss an episode. It was an obsession. I was genuinely shocked to encounter such a person. So yeah, maybe I've lost touch. Thankfully.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

OP's location is Hong Kong, I guess he prefers good old authoritarian rule. He'd have the local authorities knocking on his door if he wrote something like this about the locals.

The future for Hong Kong isn't rosy. It will become a normal part of China in 2047.

 

[Garlic muncher]

The future for Hong Kong isn't rosy. It will become a normal part of China in 2047.

That's assuming you know what is happening in China in 2047

 

[Bomberboyokay]

That's assuming you know what is happening in China in 2047

Democracy and freedom of the press don't look on the cards.

 

[BEaston]

Australia, where intelligence is looked down upon.

 

[RupieDupie]

Hell, even if you take a look at what is deemed important around election time. News networks seemingly spend more time covering how MPs fare at sausage sizzles than they do with substantive policy discussion.

But it is also important to note that whether the voting public are voting for Party A or Party B, or for Policy A or for Policy B they are in reality voting for Key Stakeholder A (not the Australian public) or Key Stakeholder B (not the Australian public). Most social, cultural and economic problems have been tackled by people since Ancient times and been given a decent amount of theoretical treatment, with fair and humane solutions provided. But what happens is when these "policies" (ways to mitigate the issue) are applied to our hierarchical society, they first enter into the following decision tree;

1) Can a Key Stakeholder (including the Government but not including the Australian public) profit by this policy (money, asset, investment, reputation etc)?
If yes, the policy should be approved without discussion
If no, go to next question

2) Will the policy cost a Key Stakeholder (including the Government but not the Australian public) (money, asset, investment, reputation etc)?
If yes, the policy should not ever be approved or discussed, but if discussed go to 3)
If no, go to 4)

3) Will taking money from one key interest of the public and shifting it to this key interest of the public solve the matter (the Key Stakeholder does not bear the burden of the cost)?
If yes, subtract the cost from healthcare, education etc
If no, subtract a sum of money from healthcare, education to create a new "Independent" Government Initiative that will be used to explore this issue in more depth for a future government. As this "Independent" Government Initiative happened under a previous government the future government can always create their own "Independent" independent government initiative

4) Will the discussion of the policy keep the rabble amused while 1) and/or 2) are taking place?
If yes, make the policy the biggest focus of the election and also make it an election promise that if Party A or Party B are voted in, the rabble will be able to also get a bonus vote on this policy
If no, make out that this policy will lead to the deaths of millions of everyday, working, ordinary Australians, and once the rabble have their backs up about it, implement the policy and proclaim that you are the greatest government Australia has ever seen (the budget to advertise this should be taken from healthcare, education etc)

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yet, Australia still has so much to recommend it. But why is it so dumb?

So because there are some TV shows on commercial TV you don't like Australia is getting dumber ? that sounds like a very dumb argument in itself .

People from countries like Korea and Japan tend to be more reserved and introverted , they don't show as much personality and humour as we do . With the greatest respect to these countries I would not wish Australia to become more like them .

 

[Sweet Jesus]

So because there are some TV shows on commercial TV you don't like Australia is getting dumber ?

It is a partial reflection of Australian tastes. Do you disagree?

And the fact there is an appetite for such rubbish reflects poorly.

It's also interesting that you reflexively seize on the subjective nature of my judgement. As though it's impossible to identify s**t as s**t. Or that anyone who does so should be regarded with suspicion ie. "just because you don't like it".

People from countries like Korea and Japan tend to be more reserved and introverted , they don't show as much personality and humour as we do .

Is that what you call it?

With the greatest respect to these countries I would not wish Australia to become more like them .

Why not aspire to the best of both worlds?

In my OP, I emphasised that there are many admirable things about Australian culture and Australian society. The aggressive, persistent dumbing down is not one of those things.

 

[Brad Goodman]

In my OP, I emphasised that there are many admirable things about Australian culture and Australian society. The aggressive, persistent dumbing down is not one of those things.

We seem to make a habit of mainly adopting the negative aspects of the cultures we come into contact with. The cruddy reality TV programming we've adopted from America case in point.

 

[Sydneyfan]

People from countries like Korea and Japan tend to be more reserved and introverted , they don't show as much personality and humour as we do . With the greatest respect to these countries I would not wish Australia to become more like them .

I can't speak with authority on Japan as I've only ever visited there a number of times but having lived in South Korea in the past, Koreans are definitely not universally introverted and reserved. In certain situations and among elders and/or strangers, often yes, in casual situations among friends and strangers, no. Koreans, particularly in Korea, have no trouble speaking their mind and saying how they feel - 99% of the time though it will be in Korean so non-Korean speakers may not pick up or realise what is being said and what appears to be the case often isn't one and the same. You can use this to your advantage as locals will assume you can't understand Korean and will very frank on their opinions whilst appearing to be all smiles and lollipops.

I think in Australia there still is a tall poppy syndrome and bright kids are often singled out, and as result many will try to dumb themselves down to fit in with the crowd. But, I found in Korea largely that whilst there's a cultural drive for knowledge and learning, the bulk of the methods, institutions and societal forces are still very rigid, inflexible and uncomfortable of outside influences and approaches and/or opposing and dissenting voices. Furthermore, a great tragedy is that you actually observe the decline of individuality among and between students as they enter middle school education, and become a part of the cookie cutter society where individuality is still largely frowned upon and beaten (often literally) out of the kids in the place of rigid conformity. This is changing but most kids spend their days and nights at school and academies forcefed information, much of little consequence or value, either via rote memorisation and/or carrot and stick approaches with little down time, sleep or access to sporting or recreational pursuits.

Whilst, Australia is by no means ideal, given the choice I'd educate my kid here and try to instil the resilience to overcome any obstacles.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I can't speak with authority on Japan as I've only ever visited there a number of times but having lived in South Korea in the past, Koreans are definitely not universally introverted and reserved. In certain situations and among elders and/or strangers, often yes, in casual situations among friends and strangers, no. Koreans, particularly in Korea, have no trouble speaking their mind and saying how they feel - 99% of the time though it will be in Korean so non-Korean speakers may not pick up or realise what is being said and what appears to be the case often isn't one and the same. You can use this to your advantage as locals will assume you can't understand Korean and will very frank on their opinions whilst appearing to be all smiles and lollipops.

I think in Australia there still is a tall poppy syndrome and bright kids are often singled out, and as result many will try to dumb themselves down to fit in with the crowd. But, I found in Korea largely that whilst there's a cultural drive for knowledge and learning, the bulk of the methods, institutions and societal forces are still very rigid, inflexible and uncomfortable of outside influences and approaches and/or opposing and dissenting voices. Furthermore, a great tragedy is that you actually observe the decline of individuality among and between students as they enter middle school education, and become a part of the cookie cutter society where individuality is still largely frowned upon and beaten (often literally) out of the kids in the place of rigid conformity. This is changing but most kids spend their days and nights at school and academies forcefed information, much of little consequence or value, either via rote memorisation and/or carrot and stick approaches with little down time, sleep or access to sporting or recreational pursuits.

Whilst, Australia is by no means ideal, given the choice I'd educate my kid here and try to instil the resilience to overcome any obstacles.

Just to be clear, at no point was I suggesting that Australia should seek to transform itself into South Korea overnight. It's not a case of 'which country is better?'

I referenced South Korea and Japan because they are the most developed countries in Asia and might therefore be presented as more instructive points of comparison than the US or the UK.

I mean, there's plenty of crazy s**t in South Korea as well...

 

[Sydneyfan]

Just to be clear, at no point was I suggesting that Australia should seek to transform itself into South Korea overnight. It's not a case of 'which country is better?'

I referenced South Korea and Japan because they are the most developed countries in Asia and might therefore be presented as more instructive points of comparison than the US or the UK.

I mean, there's plenty of crazy s**t in South Korea as well...

I'd say there's an element of the same thing you mentioned in Australia occurring in its infancy stages in places such as South Korea. Perhaps in 30 years both societies won't be all that different after all.

 

[Frank Bunn]

It is a partial reflection of Australian tastes. Do you disagree?

And the fact there is an appetite for such rubbish reflects poorly.

It's a partial reflection but not necessarily indicative of the Australia as a whole. If you had a different focus you could also find an appetite for Australians watching Ted talks, reading Richard Dawkins or participating in online forums such as this one.

And even if some people are dumb you haven't demonstrated that Australians are getting more dumb.

It's not clear how fat or happy fit into your argument.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

It's a partial reflection but not necessarily indicative of the Australia as a whole.

It doesn't have to be "indicative of Australia as a whole". Few things are. I've acknowledged the unavoidable generalisations in the OP.

If you had a different focus you could also find an appetite for Australians watching Ted talks, reading Richard Dawkins or participating in online forums such as this one.

Outside the mainstream.

In areas dependent on broad appeal, the bar gets lower and lower.

Feel free to make the counter-argument instead of merely questioning my framing.

And even if some people are dumb you haven't demonstrated that Australians are getting more dumb.

What kind of "demonstration" are you hoping for?

It's more an anecdotal discussion than one that's evidence-based.

My observation is there is a swathe of Australia that has become increasingly coarse, unlettered and incurious, and it's vividly reflected in commercial media. That may not be "indicative of Australia as a whole" but it is still a significant and depressing bellwether. And if you look through this thread, that dumbing down is apparently a lesser evil than passing any judgement on it. We wouldn't want to "look down on anyone", after all.

It's not clear how fat or happy fit into your argument.

Further symptoms of complacency.

Stupid, obese and totally cool with it.

These are not indications of a healthy society.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Feel free to make the counter-argument instead of merely questioning my framing.

What kind of "demonstration" are you hoping for?

It's more an anecdotal discussion than one that's evidence-based.

My observation is there is a swathe of Australia that has become increasingly coarse, unlettered and incurious, and it's vividly reflected in commercial media. That may not be "indicative of Australia as a whole" but it is still a significant and depressing bellwether. And if you look through this thread, that dumbing down is apparently a lesser evil than passing any judgement on it. We wouldn't want to "look down on anyone", after all.

Cool. My counter-argument is that my observation is that Australians are not getting dumber than previously.