Society/Culture Fat, happy and stupid: Is Australia getting dumber?

[Sweet Jesus]

Cool. My counter-argument is that my observation is that Australians are not getting dumber than previously.

That's more a statement than an argument. But so be it.

 

[Frank Bunn]

That's more a statement than an argument. But so be it.

And your argument is a series of assertions.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

And your argument is a series of assertions.

Including supporting rationale.

But, sure, like I said, if your argument amounts to one sentence, that's OK too.

 

[RupieDupie]

It's a partial reflection but not necessarily indicative of the Australia as a whole. If you had a different focus you could also find an appetite for Australians watching Ted talks, reading Richard Dawkins or participating in online forums such as this one.

His earlier work (Selfish gene, Blind watchmaker) yes, but in some of his later work and Twitter account he seems to be proselytising. And this is interesting. God (according to Dawkins) has absolutely nothing to do with all the "issues" that stem from religion, and these same "issues" can be observed in any ideology with an in-group (good people), out-group (bad people), and power asymmetry (group dynamics). So if Dawkins presents some people as people of the outgroup and bad people, and his own ingroup as the good people he is setting up a system that demonstrates all the same "issues" of religion.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It is a partial reflection of Australian tastes. Do you disagree?

And the fact there is an appetite for such rubbish reflects poorly.

It's also interesting that you reflexively seize on the subjective nature of my judgement. As though it's impossible to identify s**t as s**t. Or that anyone who does so should be regarded with suspicion ie. "just because you don't like it".

Is that what you call it?

Why not aspire to the best of both worlds?

In my OP, I emphasised that there are many admirable things about Australian culture and Australian society. The aggressive, persistent dumbing down is not one of those things.

I am trying to understand exactly what your taking about , does watching certain TV shows for entertainment mean a person is dumb ? can a smart person not watch these shows ?

The fact that Australians tend to value humour and more extroverted than those in Japan and Korea means that we will always express ourselves differently . You really want to know South Korea and Japan have over Australia ? they are both largely homogeneous societies .

You are being very vague at describing why we are a dumb country and what a smart country would look like .

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I am trying to understand exactly what your taking about , does watching certain TV shows for entertainment mean a person is dumb ? can a smart person not watch these shows ?

The media people consume can be a reflection of intelligence. Do you disagree?

Some of it is symptomatic of a deepening coarseness and incuriosity.

Is it more or less desirable to have a low-information society?

The fact that Australians tend to value humour and more extroverted than those in Japan and Korea means that we will always express ourselves differently . You really want to know South Korea and Japan have over Australia ? they are both largely homogeneous societies .

I'm not sure how this moves the needle either way.

If Australia was "more homogenous", would it make people smarter?

I don't see the connection.

You are being very vague at describing why we are a dumb country and what a smart country would look like .

Well, that's open for debate, isn't it?

I imagine the answers are manifold.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The media people consume can be a reflection of intelligence. Do you disagree?

Some of it is symptomatic of a deepening coarseness and incuriosity.

Is it more or less desirable to have a low-information society?

I'm not sure how this moves the needle either way.

If Australia was "more homogenous", would it make people smarter?

I don't see the connection.

Well, that's open for debate, isn't it?

I imagine the answers are manifold.

To an extent what people consume in the media can be a reflection of there intelligence although I am still not sure what shows your exactly talking about and what shows people should be watching ?

I can picture a smart hard working person whos tired after a long day at work watching what you might call stupid shows for the sake of relaxation .

Also the media is a lot bigger than ever before so to get attention they have to be provocative and talk rubbish .Its not about putting out content that people agree with but rather all about ratings.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

To an extent what people consume in the media can be a reflection of there intelligence although I am still not sure what shows your exactly talking about and what shows people should be watching ?

And nor am I about to provide an exhaustive list.

Does that invalidate my broader point?

I can picture a smart hard working person whos tired after a long day at work watching what you might call stupid shows for the sake of relaxation .

And they'd be dumber for it.

"I'm really smart but I like watching Bride and Prejudice to 'relax'."

I don't think so. That is simply not a thing.

Also the media is a lot bigger than ever before so to get attention they have to be provocative and talk rubbish .

And people have to watch it?

One of the benefits of having a fully functioning brain is that you can identify rubbish and choose not to be subjected to it. Crazy, right?

Its not about putting out content that people agree with but rather all about ratings.

That only works if people are dumb enough to respond to it. That's kind of my point.

 

[Lethality]

I've been living outside of Australia for a while.

But every time I go back, I'm shocked and disappointed by what I encounter in Australia.

Australia is one of the most prosperous, well-educated countries in the world – and it's perhaps the most desirable destination for would-be immigrants. The quality of life is through the roof, and the access to health care and higher education is something Americans (for example) could only dream about. And we basically live in peace with one another, without absurd sectarian or ethnic conflicts interfering with the great Australian project of just getting along. Some people may object to that characterisation but they should look abroad – Australian society is remarkably and brilliantly cohesive.*

However, when I go back to Australia, I'm stunned by the vapid commercial TV. It's not befitting of a civilised, well-educated country. For example, the way breakfast TV promotes inane human interest stories over real news, or how the commercial networks spend their budgets on horrific but cheap reality TV. People might say that commercial TV is a poor reflection, but it is actually a very real reflection. It's about volume. Enough Australians like this s**t to vindicate it.

But it doesn't stop there. I actually think Australians are becoming dumber and more incurious when the graph needs to be moving in the opposite direction.



People might accuse me of "cultural cringe" but I've actually been of the opinion for a while that Australian culture generally is among the most robust and decent in the world. We're just misfiring intellectually. Australia is one of the most successful immigrant societies of the past 100 years. We've been super successful in assimilating Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Thais, Chinese, Lebanese (with exceptions). Our model is a benchmark for many countries.

People might point to the US or the UK and provide horrific examples of rednecks who can't spell their own names or chavs who don't know what day it is. But those countries are no longer the salient benchmarks for Australia. Rather, Australians should monitor the comparisons with Japan and South Korea. Those are the most developed nations in our region, and Australia is a backward fool in comparison. Australia is not competitive when you look at it regionally.

Consider Australia's advantages: the state of Australian politics is actually pretty admirable (if uninspiring) when you cast an eye further afield. The centre holds, more or less. And the loser in elections accepts the legitimacy of the process. Australians might think that means SFA but it's actually something worth celebrating when you look at the region and the world generally.



The point I hope to make in the above paragraphs is that those who call Australia home have been born into strikingly good fortune. This vast yet small country of 25 million. Compared to whole swathes of the world that are just badly governed loops of poverty and ignorance and violence. But what do Australians do with that good fortune?

Whenever I visit Australia, I feel like Australians are becoming more incurious, more suspicious of intellect. And the token examples of intelligent conversation have become increasingly worthless. I've lived in some s**t holes - some chaotic, developing places - and when I compare those places to Australia, I find it harder and harder to forgive the dumb s**t complacency of Australians who are, in theory, better educated and more effectively incentivised to not be illiterate morons.

The best and most generous explanation I can offer is that Australia is a small market. It means that more challenging, more niche ideas face greater obstacles. There is an incentive for broad appeal.

A trivial example: if Monty Python had started in Australia, as opposed to the larger market of the UK, they simply wouldn't have found a large enough following to transition into something bigger. In the US, someone like Conan O'Brien is by no means the No.1 guy in his slot but manages to carve out a niche – in Australia, we get Rove McManus or The Project. So broad and so uninspired that no one cares. That's Australia.



Australia is this one-off experiment with all these advantages, and it could be the greatest country in the world. But there's this collective mass who are so intoxicated by their relative comfort that they just stopped trying? And now being unlettered and intellectually lazy is OK?

Yet, Australia still has so much to recommend it. But why is it so dumb?

* Generalisations acknowledged.

I'm glad you're back in a country where you can bag the locals without feeling racist. That's all this is, transference of unconscious pent up negative assessments onto safer targets.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm glad you're back in a country where you can bag the locals without feeling racist. That's all this is, transference of unconscious pent up negative assessments onto safer targets.

What does race have to do with it?

Let me assure you, I'll be happy to share certain negative views of the locals in other countries too, regardless of race.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

And nor am I about to provide an exhaustive list.

Does that invalidate my broader point?

And they'd be dumber for it.

"I'm really smart but I like watching Bride and Prejudice to 'relax'."

I don't think so. That is simply not a thing.

And people have to watch it?

One of the benefits of having a fully functioning brain is that you can identify rubbish and choose not to be subjected to it. Crazy, right?

That only works if people are dumb enough to respond to it. That's kind of my point.

Don't you think its a bit stupid to create a thread about how Australians are getting dumber mostly on the basis of watching dumb tv shows but you cant tell us what these shows are and what they should be watching ?

Your talking about a fully functional brain but your badly struggling to articulate your own argument. You cant tell us what these stupid shows are ,why they are stupid ,how they make us dumber and what shows we should be watching .

You need to express yourself better .

 

[geelong_crazy26]

What does race have to do with it?

Let me assure you, I'll be happy to share certain negatives views of the locals in other countries too, regardless of race.

Hopefully you do a better job at explaining what's wrong with other countries than you are with Australia .

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Don't you think its a bit stupid to create a thread about how Australians are getting dumber mostly on the basis of watching dumb tv shows but you cant tell us what these shows are and what they should be watching ?

To be fair, it isn't exactly hard to surmise what not to watch and what to watch/read.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Don't you think its a bit stupid to create a thread about how Australians are getting dumber mostly on the basis of watching dumb tv shows but you cant tell us what these shows are and what they should be watching ?

Are you requesting an exhaustive list?

Your talking about a fully functional brain but your badly struggling to articulate your own argument.

Which part of my argument do you not understand?

You cant tell us what these stupid shows are ,why they are stupid ,how they make us dumber and what shows we should be watching .

I've provided examples of what I consider braindead commercial media. Is their stupidity not self-evident?

Furthermore, are you saying that until I provide a list of "shows people should be watching", you simply can't process what I've said to date?

That strikes me as a deliberate decision on your part to not engage with the substance. So be it. I'm satisfied with my remarks as they stand. But you're of course welcome to disagree.

I don't think a list of media I like vs media I dislike would advance the cause any further. Beyond the shining examples I've posted already.

Hopefully you do a better job at explaining what's wrong with other countries than you are with Australia .

Is this thread hitting a little too close to home, champ?

 

[Lethality]

Let me assure you, I'll be happy to share certain negatives views of the locals in other countries too, regardless of race.

Sure, go ahead.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Are you requesting an exhaustive list?

Which part of my argument do you not understand?

I've provided examples of what I consider braindead commercial media. Is their stupidity not self-evident?

Furthermore, are you saying that until I provide a list of "shows people should be watching", you simply can't process what I've said to date?

That strikes me as a deliberate decision on your part to not engage with the substance. So be it. I'm satisfied with my remarks as they stand.

I don't think a list of media I like vs media I dislike would advance the cause any further. Beyond the shining examples I've posted already.

Is this thread hitting a little too close to home, champ?

I am requesting that you actually put your brain to work buddy , saying a shows stupidity is evident is something that someone who doesn't want to put his mind to work would say . It's a lazy cognitive reflex that doesn't require deep thought .

Given that you are so badly putting your view across , I think it would help you explain yourself by giving a list of shows that people should be watching .

About being close to home , I am a liberal party member who regularly attends liberal party functions , I enjoy listening to conservatives commentators such as Paul Murray ,Andrew bolt and Allan Jones ,I am fascinated by Hawking and Einstein's work with regard to relativity and black holes and love documentaries .I cant stand the ABC its left wing nonsense .

I suggest you activate your brain a bit better with regard's to this topic and stop saying a show is stupid because it just is and people who watch it are stupid because they just are .

 

[Coolangatta]

I used to think that way, but I don't know. Intelligence is complex. Sometimes you get well informed, well educated academics who are just useless when it comes to everything outside of the world of book smarts, then you get people who lack book smarts but have a lot of life skills, then you get people who have a mixture of both. Academia and the working class can compliment each other with valuable insights from the former and essential skills from the latter but unfortunately they seem to clash a bit and this is probably why social circles don't generally seem to have a lot of variation in education levels. Australia's education rankings fell last year, though, so it's little surprise that the media has been able to manipulate a lot of people with relative ease. Critical and analytical thinking skills should be taught to children in all schools.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I used to think that way, but I don't know. Intelligence is complex. Sometimes you get well informed, well educated academics who are just useless when it comes to everything outside of the world of book smarts, then you get people who lack book smarts but have a lot of life skills, then you get people who have a mixture of both. Academia and the working class can compliment each other with valuable insights from the former and essential skills from the latter but unfortunately they seem to clash a bit and this is probably why social circles don't generally seem to have a lot of variation in education levels. Australia's education rankings fell last year, though, so it's little surprise that the media has been able to manipulate a lot of people with relative ease. Critical and analytical thinking skills should be taught to children in all schools.

Australia does have a problem with education in this country for 2 reasons .

1.Marxism and radical left wing ideology has infected our education system

2.Teaching is no longer seen as a noble career path , our best and brightest students don't want to go into teaching .

 

[Frank Bunn]

Including supporting rationale.

But, sure, like I said, if your argument amounts to one sentence, that's OK too.

Supporting assertions.

I could waffle on for a few paragraphs like yourself but personal anecdotes do not lend good support to a generalising argument on the whole of society.

 

[Coolangatta]

Australia does have a problem with education in this country for 2 reasons .

1.Marxism and radical left wing ideology has infected our education system

2.Teaching is no longer seen as a noble career path , our best and brightest students don't want to go into teaching .

I'm aware of university courses that teach students what Marxism is, but none I'm aware of here in Australia that encourage students to think that our societal class structures need to be overthrown with force rather than democratically modified. Writers like Paulo Freire in the 70s called for the wealthy and elite to be overthrown but not everyone in academia agrees with this approach. Challenging left-leaning (which is normally the case) lecturers in universities is not something that is discouraged or considered taboo usually.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Singling out media consumption as some sort of tell-all about an entire nation is always a little simplistic.

There's some incredibly violent pornography that goes to print in mainstream publications in Japan - are they getting more sexually deviant?

 

[Coolangatta]

Singling out media consumption as some sort of tell-all about an entire nation is always a little simplistic.

There's some incredibly violent pornography that goes to print in mainstream publications in Japan - are they more sexually deviant?

That's true. We don't know other people as well as we think we do.

But I do know you'll kick another goal after the siren.

 

[rank and file]

Including supporting rationale.

But, sure, like I said, if your argument amounts to one sentence, that's OK too.

Luckily,I'm too lazy to argue,not fat but.

 

[awaremind]

Define "snob".

If you mean being able to identify awful s**t as awful s**t, then sure. If you mean a belief that being informed and discerning is desirable for its own sake, then sure. Is the opposite preferable?

There should be a stigma attached to rank stupidity. Instead, you focus on the "snobbishness" of calling out this stupidity for what it is. Therein lies the problem. The quality control filters are broken. How can that be a good thing?

Why aren't people more ashamed of being dumb AF? There's no excuse for it in Australia. And yet people seem quite relaxed about it. There no longer seems to be any social cost attached. That leaves us with the race to the bottom that's now on display.

The thing is that sadly not everyone is as smart as you most likely, and the world is a frustrating place. Learn to come to terms with that because it's not about to change overnight. It might not change soon enough to save humans from self extinguishing even. But do your best to help others mate... Good thread.

 

[Brad Goodman]

Live and let live is an underrated concept.