Do GWS have issues with trading for older players?

[Bokonon_]

GWS need more genuine fighters, with a high level of endeavor, willing to get their hands dirty, who know that opportunities won't just be handed to them.

Add some battle hardened triers to that list and the rest of the group will hopefully see what is needed to perform each week.

I dont believe effort is the issue, or lack if fight. We played much better in finals last year with the same core group, than we have this year. We've also pulled off some unlikely wins with a depleted playing group this year. None of that indicates a lack of fight to me.

The playing group evolves with time as older players move on, that's the case with every list.

What has happened is we've failed to build a group who have the belief and trust in each other through the home and away season. That's necessary to win finals IMO. I think it's lack of stability in the playing group through the year, but whatever the reason it's intangible and cant be fixed quickly or on demand.

I think the Crows and the Tigers have it and they'll fight out the flag. We might make the PF but the GF a bridge too far in my view.

 

[BRWB]

Well if you look at where the list was improvement wise we needed some classy/tough/footy wise top ups.
Took what was available and done our best with it.
Lids and Griff injuries probably add weight to your comments.And like all clubs? where would we be "if"???

If GWS didn't have picks to burn, getting Delidio will become known as one of the worst trades in recent memory.

But setting aside talent and injury. Go back to character in senior citizens.

Richmond moved on two of their weakest character players last year. Vickery and Delidio. It's clearly contributed to a massive difference in culture.

If you have enough people like Callan Ward who will die for your club and set a good example then your club goes places. But Ward is a young leade. For instance we had Matty Boyd and Dale Morris and Murphy. Where is GWS' senior leader like that?

Pick up enough Shaw, Lids, Griffen and SJ types and you will have problems.

IMO GWS are reaping what they've sown. Flawed character senior leaders letting you down in big games and big moments. SJ suspended for the prelim last year due to ill discipline - who does Toby Greene look up to and look what happens this year?

 

[King Brown]

Heater and Mummy weren't surplus to requirements at their old clubs. Shaw was traded out for getting himself into trouble too many times and Mumford was squeezed out because Sydney suddenly found themselves with less space in their salary cap than anticipated for some reason*. I'd say both have been great for GWS. I also don't think you could argue that Steve Johnson has been anything other than a big success for them notwithstanding that he clearly is now cooked.

Griffen was a star when they got him, though he's obviously been pretty ordinary for his new club and now probably finished. Bottom line is that they have had to bring in these older heads to complement their list of young talent. We've seen what happens when you put a bunch of talented kids together in a club environment with no decent leadership and a nice climate. GWS have done well to avoid that.

As others have said, there is nothing wrong with bringing in those older players but you have to go for the right kinds of people. You also have to accept that you can't always get who you want - the problem with trying to bring in great leaders is that those types of players rarely want to move clubs in the first place.

I have no problem with that strategy 2011-2015, but carrying it into a year you're expected to make top four after narrowly missing out on a GF berth is somewhat puzzling. They're no longer in need of mature heads to take the reins of a fledgling club while the youth develops. Their once youthful players are now at an age and experience where they should be setting the standards for others to look up to.

I understand the reasoning for a team like GWS to get a De Boer type that sets the example for unheralded stuff. It's just that GWS is beginning to resemble a side that has topped up too far. Wondering which of the three out of form veterans you have to select in a semi final is a strange question for a clubs so replete with talent to be considering.

 

[Bokonon_]

At least we had a title to defend, the only title you have to defend is the most overrated and you are doing that quite successfully!

Pfft
You call that a " title defence".
Tks a good laugh is always welcome on a Monday. Particularly to those of us with the stress of sorting out finals tkts.

 

[CakeEater]

Just to stop the WB/GWS bollocks.

I'll answer this succintly- GWS thought they were in line for a premiership.

Hence why they recruited Johnson, Delidio and Griffen who are all coming to the end of their career. Every club who thinks they are in the window does the same thing.

GWS picked up Mzungu and De Boer as they were cheap depth players who had recently been at a contending club so knew what was expected of them- which is borne out by what they have brought to the table for GWS.

 

[Hawk Dork]

When you get lots of 1st round picks you end up with lots of Chiefs and not enough Indians
Then you bring in the oldies to show the way but most of the oldies didnt have that much success prior to coming and are quite happy to have prolonged bruise free last couple of years before retirement.
Its not like they are going to bleed for the new franchise and miss out on potentially another years pay/super.

 

[BRWB]

Now Mumford out for season. GWS recruited another injury prone older player whose body has let them down at the business end of the year.

Really questionable recruiting of senior players by GWS when looked at as a group.

 

[Professor Knowall]

If GWS didn't have picks to burn, getting Delidio will become known as one of the worst trades in recent memory...

Trade? What trade? I thought he was picked up as a free agent.

 

[CakeEater]

Now Mumford out for season. GWS recruited another injury prone older player whose body has let them down at the business end of the year.

Really questionable recruiting of senior players by GWS when looked at as a group.

No offence mate, but not many clubs covered themselves in glory with their trading this year bar the Dockers.

The Bullies had some high profile failures which hindered rather than helped their charge for back to back premierships such as picking up Cloke who looked cooked last year at Collingwood (irrespective of the Mental Health issues he was dealing with).

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Cant be that bad we finished top 4. I dont think the advice of the tenth placed side is where we should be looking for inspiration.

I think you misunderstand Bigfooty... posters are not club representatives/employees. So when a poster of a team who finishes 10th gives an opinion you should not view that as where you should be 'looking for inspiration.' I hope I've cleared that up for you

 

[Sedat!]

Johnson trade could have been far worse for GWS had it taken place 12 months earlier and the Cats accepted their offer of picks 4, 5 and 7 for him.

 

[BRWB]

No offence mate, but not many clubs covered themselves in glory with their trading this year bar the Dockers.

The Bullies had some high profile failures which hindered rather than helped their charge for back to back premierships such as picking up Cloke who looked cooked last year at Collingwood (irrespective of the Mental Health issues he was dealing with).

No offence m8 but why are you posting about the Dogs and Dockers in a Giants thread? I don't get the relevance. And GWS' poor recruiting of old players has extended over multiple seasons anyway.

Trade? What trade? I thought he was picked up as a free agent.

You thought wrong. GWS traded a 1st rd pick for Lids.

 

[Deep]

My thoughts as well. I think they can't become a truly great team until their original players take ownership of the club. Shiel, Patton and Cameron are all 24 - they should be the leaders, not the older blokes who steered the club through the early years (though I still rate Ward quite highly).

They're not talented youth with potential anymore, they have a core group that's at the age where they should be regarded as the best group in the league.

Agree so remove Davis as a co captain and give it to Coniglio if they must have co captains

 

[freo1]

Either way if GWS don't win a flag with this list it will be the greatest failure the game has ever seen. They've been absolutely spoon fed the best list and resources possible but as we're seeing, champion teams beat a team of champions.

 

[Bokonon_]

Johnson trade could have been far worse for GWS had it taken place 12 months earlier and the Cats accepted their offer of picks 4, 5 and 7 for him.

Your premise was wrong. He was a free pickup after being delisted and he's done the job we wanted from him very well. It's his time, and he's already announced his retirement.

 

[CakeEater]

No offence m8 but why are you posting about the Dogs and Dockers in a Giants thread? I don't get the relevance. And GWS' poor recruiting of old players has extended over multiple seasons anyway.

Fair point, my apologies- I had conflated you in with the rest of your brethren. You actually have talked about their issues.

I would disagree with your assessment on GWS's recruitment being poor over multiple seasons especially in regards to those pre 2016, I think they have got that spot on.

I think with hindsight the letting Johnson go on for one more year has proved to be a mistake.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

When we got Del, everyone (pretty much) shat themselves because of his talent and experience.
Mzungu and DeBoer were depth.

Pretty straight forward.

No we didn't, it was clear to all and sundry (bar GWS) that Deledio's body was cooked and that has been solidified this year. Seriousl, most Richmond people couldn't believe that they got a first round pick for him. The guy is a gun but his best is well past him and his body can no longer hold up to te rigours of AFL

 

[Colonial]

Now Mumford out for season. GWS recruited another injury prone older player whose body has let them down at the business end of the year.

Really questionable recruiting of senior players by GWS when looked at as a group.

Mummys been at the club for years.
Has provided great service.

At least try and not make shit up.

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[Bokonon_]

Mummys been at the club for years.
Has provided great service.

At least try and not make shit up.

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I guess he could try, wouldn't be optimistic he can though.

 

[BRWB]

Mummys been at the club for years.
Has provided great service.

At least try and not make shit up.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Mummy has regularly broken down throughout his career. That's not made up. It's fact.

And any GWS people who complain about Mummy breaking down during a critical finals series (not saying you have) will sound like North fans complaining about Waite being injured.

 

[King Brown]

Just to stop the WB/GWS bollocks.

I'll answer this succintly- GWS thought they were in line for a premiership.

Hence why they recruited Johnson, Delidio and Griffen who are all coming to the end of their career. Every club who thinks they are in the window does the same thing.

GWS picked up Mzungu and De Boer as they were cheap depth players who had recently been at a contending club so knew what was expected of them- which is borne out by what they have brought to the table for GWS.

Rounding off a list is usually the done by clubs to address deficiencies they can't immediately address through the draft. Why do GWS have as many deficiencies as what is indicated by their recruitment?

 

[CakeEater]

Rounding off a list is usually the done by clubs to address deficiencies they can't immediately address through the draft. Why do GWS have as many deficiencies as what is indicated by their recruitment?

Because to give them a better age spread as they picked up a lot of 17-21 year old kids?

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

With Brett Deledio's average performance in the first round of finals, I heard two names floated as potential ins: Steve Johnson and Ryan Griffen.

Steve Johnson is a noted finals performer, but was dropped because his form was unspeakably poor. The other two have serious question marks about their performances in finals and are probably more washed up than Johnson.

Mumford also stunk it up quite badly and may not get up for the semi final, being replaced by Dawson Simpson.

I wondered to myself: are these really the choices they have?

Having a look at their list, there are an awful lot of players who are essentially offcuts from other teams. In addition to the named three, I count Reid, De Boer, Mzungu as blokes who've gotten games this year and were dumped by other clubs.

Of their good players from other clubs, Mumford and Shaw were also offloaded by their original clubs due being surplus to requirements.

With the amount of talent GWS have at their disposal, why is the discussion about which long past their best player should come in for another play long past his best? This seems like the kind of thing that clubs on their way down have to confront.

It always has been a retirement destination.
Brogan, Power, Cornes - hell, we got Junior (Fossil) MacDonald from the Ammos when we started.
Followed by the likes of Thornton (I know!) Gilliam, Hunt, OhAilpin Patfull etc. Dylan Addison came home, played a couple and is now welfare manager.

Lids has a couple more left in him, Stevie J had one good one and then was cooked.

They've mostly been useful for what they were, and we knew they were transitioning into whatever happens post football.

Shaw and Mummy are different - they weren't close to retirement and have already given several years - Shaw was AA twice after Collingwood.

But there's nothing wrong with being a retirement destination if the reasons are right, and everyone know where they stand.

My thoughts as well. I think they can't become a truly great team until their original players take ownership of the club. Shiel, Patton and Cameron are all 24 - they should be the leaders, not the older blokes who steered the club through the early years (though I still rate Ward quite highly).

They're not talented youth with potential anymore, they have a core group that's at the age where they should be regarded as the best group in the league.

Ward and Davis are both still only 27. Young by captain's standards - it's the six years as, at that age, that make them standouts. Now (I think) the longest serving captains in the league. But at only 27, there's no need to step aside, just yet.

Of the "younger" brigade, Steve Cognilio is our Vice-Captain taking over from Heath Shaw who's stepped back to the leadership group which also contains Josh Kelly, Dylan Shiel and Dev Smith.

And from what I've seen it's a really cohesive and vocal leadership group within the club.

I'm more than happy with where our leadership group is placed at the moment.

 

[Colonial]

Mummy has regularly broken down throughout his career. That's not made up. It's fact.

And any GWS people who complain about Mummy breaking down during a critical finals series (not saying you have) will sound like North fans complaining about Waite being injured.

Havent heard many complain. He has been great for us when we had a group of kids

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[King Brown]

Because to give them a better age spread as they picked up a lot of 17-21 year old kids?

Those kids are 21-24 now - what extra does De Boer, Mzungu and Deledio collectively bring that the maturation of their high draft picks doesn't?

They're far from the youngest team in the finals.